Will tariffs make America great?

dirtywick said:
imo there’s no question that manufacturing jobs in production aren’t highly desired. almost universally they pay slightly better than retail work, for longer and probably worse hours, with less flexibility in worse conditions. if you’re working through a temp agency it’s even worse. many people decide it’s not worth the small pay increase, and imo there’s legitimacy to that.
Click to expand...
I think a lot of the people pining for manufacturing jobs are misremembering why they were so good back in the day. It's because they were union jobs and the unions fought hard for their members' rights.

But then again that reality would go against reich wing ideology of "rich people good, unions evil".
 
dirtywick said:
imo there’s no question that manufacturing jobs in production aren’t highly desired. almost universally they pay slightly better than retail work, for longer and probably worse hours, with less flexibility in worse conditions. if you’re working through a temp agency it’s even worse. many people decide it’s not worth the small pay increase, and imo there’s legitimacy to that.
Click to expand...

You have to remember that Trump is decades behind, there used to be lots of skilled manufacturing jobs that were well paid, secure, desirable, respected* and much better than retail or service jobs that were lost to a combination of outsourcing and automation during the deindustrialization of the late 80s and 90s. Those jobs aren't coming back in significant numbers, if at all, automation is cheaper, faster and more accurate, but unskilled work? Well, if the combination of wages & training is cheaper than making a machine...

*ETA: And as Gulliver Foyle rightly points out, unionised.
 
Last edited:
P.J. Denyer said:
You have to remember that Trump is decades behind, there used to be lots of skilled manufacturing jobs that were well paid, secure, desirable, respected* and much better than retail or service jobs that were lost to a combination of outsourcing and automation during the deindustrialization of the late 80s and 90s. Those jobs aren't coming back in significant numbers, if at all, automation is cheaper, faster and more accurate, but unskilled work? Well, if the combination of wages & training is cheaper than making a machine...

*ETA: And as Gulliver Foyle rightly points out, unionised.
Click to expand...
even at that, the machinery to automate needs to be developed. the us already manufactures a significant amount of stuff in certain industries, it's how we remain competitive at american pay scales (which, even in an automated environment with well understood processes, is slightly above retail). new industries is new processes, new processes we don't understand and don't have the machinery for. it will need to be designed and built.

the skilled jobs pay well, but there's still many more jobs in unskilled work in automated plants and it's not going anywhere. forklift drivers and logistics, people need to operate the robots and load in raw materials to be processed and perform quality checks throughout the process still make up a significant amount of the workforce in a modern factory.

i don't want to get into the union stuff too much other than to say they've contributed to their own bad reputations in their own ways.
 
dirtywick said:
even at that, the machinery to automate needs to be developed. the us already manufactures a significant amount of stuff in certain industries, it's how we remain competitive at american pay scales (which, even in an automated environment with well understood processes, is slightly above retail). new industries is new processes, new processes we don't understand and don't have the machinery for. it will need to be designed and built.

the skilled jobs pay well, but there's still many more jobs in unskilled work in automated plants and it's not going anywhere. forklift drivers and logistics, people need to operate the robots and load in raw materials to be processed and perform quality checks throughout the process still make up a significant amount of the workforce in a modern factory.

i don't want to get into the union stuff too much other than to say they've contributed to their own bad reputations in their own ways.
Click to expand...
About 95% of unions' bad reputations is either down to oligarch propaganda or employer captured unions (which are often worse than no union and are, in reality, the descendants of the German Labour Front). Americans have a long history of being unable to recognise what is good for them.
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
About 95% of unions' bad reputations is either down to oligarch propaganda or employer captured unions (which are often worse than no union and are, in reality, the descendants of the German Labour Front). Americans have a long history of being unable to recognise what is good for them.
Click to expand...

well i don’t think that’s true. they’re political organizations, and come with all that comes with being a political organization
 
theprestige said:
TDS Sufferers: Tariffs mean Trump is insane!

Some MAGAts: It's a negotiation tactic.

Trump: Okay, okay let's negotiate.

TDS Sufferers: Trump is a coward!
Click to expand...
Trump is insane. His "handling" of tariffs is just one manifestation among many.

Trump is also a coward. Bone spurs are just one manifestation among many.

Trump is also deranged. Recognizing that his group of symptoms collectively indicate or characterize his disease, psychological disorder, or other abnormal condition constitute a syndrome is rational thinking, a process that escapes many Trump supporters.
 
William Parcher said:
US court blocks Trump from imposing the bulk of his tariffs.

Click to expand...
Honestly it didn't even occur to me that something like this might happen.

I grew up being taught that the American Government had a "system of checks and balances" that would prevent a president like Trump from just doing anything he wants to do without approval from Congress, and/or the courts in the case of a legal gray area. With Trump it feels like there are precious few checks on him, either from Congress (controlled by Republicans who are at least cowed by Trump, if not enthusiastic supporters) or from the Courts given that Trump supporters control the Supreme Court.

And that last point is what makes me still worry that this ruling on tariffs might be overturned by the Supreme Court.

The Trump Administration is arguing that trade deficits constitute a "national emergency" and therefore this gives the president the power to change tariffs unilaterally, and without specific approval from Congress. It seems risible to me that mere trade deficits could possibly rise to the level of a "national emergency". But if the Supreme Court wants Trump to have that power, they can come up with whatever rationale they want to justify it.
 
By the way, dictators and authoritarians always invoke a state of "National Emergency" as a pretext for seizing more power, and preventing democratic checks on that power.
 
Orphia Nay said:
TACO - Trump Always Chickens Out - term coined on Wall Street.

Trump gets asked about it and calls it a "nasty question".

www.bbc.com

'Taco' - Trump blasts 'nasty' chicken gibe about his tariff reversals

The president was not pleased with an acronym, standing for "Trump Always Chickens Out", reportedly coined on Wall Street.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
Click to expand...
Which means they hit a really sore point with him. Which means he has been called that before, more than once.

Wonder if he has given up eating Mexican food...

1748500819289.png
 
Puppycow said:
Honestly it didn't even occur to me that something like this might happen.

I grew up being taught that the American Government had a "system of checks and balances" that would prevent a president like Trump from just doing anything he wants to do without approval from Congress, and/or the courts in the case of a legal gray area. With Trump it feels like there are precious few checks on him, either from Congress (controlled by Republicans who are at least cowed by Trump, if not enthusiastic supporters) or from the Courts given that Trump supporters control the Supreme Court.

And that last point is what makes me still worry that this ruling on tariffs might be overturned by the Supreme Court.

The Trump Administration is arguing that trade deficits constitute a "national emergency" and therefore this gives the president the power to change tariffs unilaterally, and without specific approval from Congress. It seems risible to me that mere trade deficits could possibly rise to the level of a "national emergency". But if the Supreme Court wants Trump to have that power, they can come up with whatever rationale they want to justify it.
Click to expand...
Knowing Trump, he will just ignore these and any rulings he doesn't like. He's been getting away with that unchecked for months now.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Knowing Trump, he will just ignore these and any rulings he doesn't like. He's been getting away with that unchecked for months now.
Click to expand...
In a way, while it's a loss for Trump (unless the Supreme Court overturns it) in a way it's a political best-case scenario for him.
If he can't actually implement his tariff plan, then his supporters will never actually feel the economic sting of those tariffs, and he can claim that they would have been great and would have made America great again, if only those pesky courts hadn't got in the way. We'll never get to learn that lesson: This is what actually happens to the economy when you do this.
 
Puppycow said:
In a way, while it's a loss for Trump (unless the Supreme Court overturns it) in a way it's a political best-case scenario for him.
If he can't actually implement his tariff plan, then his supporters will never actually feel the economic sting of those tariffs, and he can claim that they would have been great and would have made America great again, if only those pesky courts hadn't got in the way. We'll never get to learn that lesson: This is what actually happens to the economy when you do this.
Click to expand...
The problem is that Trump (actually, his Admin) is more than willing to ignore court orders against whatever it is they want to do. So they may still try to enable his tariffs in petulant defiance of Congress, the courts and the law. And that will become an unholy mess of failure, from contempt proceedings (which are already happening now in other court cases), to Congressional pushback, to negative publicity especially from MAGA, and to international trade turmoil and loss of confidence in the USA (already happening, as noted elsewhere).

What we call in the trade an almighty ◊◊◊◊-fight.
 
William Parcher said:
The tariffs have been voided. Is everybody happy?
Click to expand...

I don't know if "happy" explains it. This means that orange, wadded up bag of insecurity and narcissism is going to go on a massive temper tantrum and probably do something dumb as ◊◊◊◊. Which, for him, means the opportunities will be endless. The judges, and their families, are going to receive death threats. He'll probably find a way to blame Zelenskyy, and undoubtedly verbally assault Biden, for some reason.
 
well i’m happier. it was really bad policy. but damage was done that revoking them won’t undo, and they’re probably not off the radar completely

and there’s still a lot of fiscally irresponsible policies in place now and problems that need to be solved that are still going unaddressed and the deficit is getting worse with no relief in sight.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom