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Will JREF Go On Without Randi?

I think the bottomline is this:

JREF will go on without Randi. It won't be the same without Randi.

But, "different" does not necessarily mean "worse".

In fact, fresh blood is probably our best bet for developing a new, innovative "special sauce", that will keep JREF unique, whatever that happens to be.
 
Oh, and I think you're changing the subject. Now, it seems you are arguing that woo conventions are more popular than skeptical ones. But, that has no bearing on weather or not JREF will "go on", anyway. All that indicates is that there is a lot of work to do, so we better get JREF growing.
 
paximperium said:
So that justifies your lie about not making this claim?

or how you abandoned it once you realized you didn't have anything relevant to advance your nonsense? Well, we can see the credibility of your "opinion" here.
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I'd be careful with that temper.
 
kookbreaker said:
I disagree. TAM increased its size dramatically when it moved from Winter to Summer simply because more teachers could attend.
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Although that was the plan, I'm not aware of any evidence (I asked once and received nothing more in response than the same vague speculation I had) that it succeeded. If anything, there was suggestion that it made little impact on bringing in significantly more teachers, given a) the expense and b) it wasn't sold as relevant to education.

The best thing to come out of the last TAM was a group of teachers who were eagre to promote a better understanding of critical thinking education, which resulted in the formation of CTEG. While the group is currently somewhat quiet (teachers are a rather busy lot), it has produced some rather good discussion on how best to teach critical thinking and produce resources. This group was formed independantly of the JREF out of a general dissatisfaction with their attitude towards their understanding of effective education.

I was also optimistic about Phil taking outreach and education a little more seriously, given he has somewhat closer ties with it. After a couple of unanswered emails (one suggesting more of a possible relationship between my own educational outreach group) and the JREF, and no real expression of willingness to seek expert advice on pedagogical matters, I'm not feeling that optimism any more.

Athon
 
Luke T. said:
I have not abandoned my opinion. That's unskeptical wishful thinking on your part.
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And that is both a non-sequitor and an illogical assumption on your part

Do you actually have a point to make or are you merely intent on wasting bandwidth?
 
Luke T. said:
I have not abandoned my opinion. That's unskeptical wishful thinking on your part.
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You should not blame others for your inability to communicate or mount or an honest argument. Your opinion is not credible since all your silly nonsense has been dismantled. To think that it is, is not only unskeptical, it is delusional.

You should review your own nonsense and try to do a better job unlike what you've been doing. You should be upfront with your agenda instead in hiding behind insinuations and potshots. That's a sign of a coward.
 
Wowbagger said:
Oh, and I think you're changing the subject. Now, it seems you are arguing that woo conventions are more popular than skeptical ones. But, that has no bearing on weather or not JREF will "go on", anyway. All that indicates is that there is a lot of work to do, so we better get JREF growing.
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It was brought up that an indication that JREF will go on is that the forum and TAM attendance has grown. I am simply responding to those claims.

Simple business fact. If your competition is outgrowing you, your business is in serious jeopardy.

I absolutely agree with you that JREF better get busy. Soon.
 
Luke T. said:
I'd be careful with that temper.
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You are projecting. Very sad, but if it makes you feel better, go ahead and believe that you are making a great point. I'm very generous.

When you have nothing else to add, you need to step back and reconsider your arguments...oh wait you have none, nevermind.
 
paximperium said:
He must have missed the European TAM and the popularity of skepticism in Australia. Sorry for the ignorant US-centric American.
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The 'popularity of skepticism in Australia' isn't quite what it seems. Unfortunately, while there are some shining stars in our midst of skeptics (Richard, Kiless, Karen Stollznow...), as a collective they're pretty incompetent. Nobody knows much about them here, and those that do share the same attitudes as people in the US and UK.

The positive thing about skepticism here is that our education system is fairly good at promoting a positive culture for critical thinking skills to build on later in life. The external social culture is also fairly supportive of skeptical thinking, for the most part. I wouldn't put any of this down to adequate outreach by skeptical groups, sorry.

Athon
 
Luke T. said:
It was brought up that an indication that JREF will go on is that the forum and TAM attendance has grown. I am simply responding to those claims.

Simple business fact. If your competition is outgrowing you, your business is in serious jeopardy.
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Since the JREF is not a business, your point is irrelevant and continues to be wrong.
I absolutely agree with you that JREF better get busy. Soon.
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Why soon? Oh, because of Randi. Still pushing that nonsense huh?
 
wow, Luke, what is happening in your life?

Yeah oddly, things are being planned. Those of us on the cruise (and I hung with at least 4 people that had only recently learned of JREF) heard some good news which will be shared soon. We were asked not to share until things were finalized.

Happy news for all those that LOVE the skeptic movement.

I mean, chortling over the demise of something that is important to many, is a bit negative. Sorry to sound all California about this, but how about a nice chat with your boss about your feelings. He sounds like a great guy, and as you know he and I share one important thing in common.. besides wanting the best for you and your family.

I know at least 20 people coming to TAM, and this will be their first (and remember I don't know a lot of people) and they so NEED to feel connected to a community. Why do I go to church? Because I like the connection to others. I mean, if not for that sense of community.. your logic says churches should only exsist for atheists to go to.

Go talk with a human, a good human. One that cares about you as much as many of us care about you.
 
athon said:
The 'popularity of skepticism in Australia' isn't quite what it seems. Unfortunately, while there are some shining stars in our midst of skeptics (Richard, Kiless, Karen Stollznow...), as a collective they're pretty incompetent. Nobody knows much about them here, and those that do share the same attitudes as people in the US and UK.

The positive thing about skepticism here is that our education system is fairly good at promoting a positive culture for critical thinking skills to build on later in life. The external social culture is also fairly supportive of skeptical thinking, for the most part. I wouldn't put any of this down to adequate outreach by skeptical groups, sorry.

Athon
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Sorry for this ignorant US-centric American.
 
six7s said:
And that is both a non-sequitor and an illogical assumption on your part

Do you actually have a point to make or are you merely intent on wasting bandwidth?
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Are you still upset over the "crossing over" comment? Where is this hostility coming from?

Since you asked earlier, I used "crossing over" as a John Edward reference. I spent a lot of time battling JE fans back in the day on here and on their own forum. ;)

Hope that helps.
 
kittynh said:
wow, Luke, what is happening in your life?
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Not much. Things are pretty routine these days. You?

Or did you ask because Hal is back there somewhere again saying I must be drunk?

kittynh said:
I mean, chortling over the demise of something that is important to many, is a bit negative.
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Chortling? I am far from chortling. If JREF went down, there would be few angrier about it than me.

I appreciate you taking the time to post in this topic, kitty. I really do. I was just looking at a photo of our daughter in the hat you made not even one week ago.
 
kittynh said:
Those of us on the cruise (and I hung with at least 4 people that had only recently learned of JREF) heard some good news which will be shared soon. We were asked not to share until things were finalized.

Happy news for all those that LOVE the skeptic movement.
Click to expand...

I look forward to hearing the good news, kitty.
 
I think it will be terrific news Luke.

It's rather like when a beloved pastor dies or retires.

The point is that Randi has been a great inspiration for many of us. Sadly, he's not immortal. Randi and others have been trying to get up as many youtubes as we can to introduce a whole new generation to him.

Even as we write this a whole new generation of skeptics is learning and growig, getting ready to take on the burden Randi and Gardner and Asimov and the other greats have carried for so long...sadly many of the best like Asimov, Andruss and Sagan are gone already.

Will there be a JREF? Well, I don't think JREF will be like it is now. Will there be places for skeptics to share friendship, teach the curious, inspire, educate and just plain old joke around? YES!

Heck we've got a JREF skeptic wedding this month!! It's the third JREF wedding to be I've heard about! Now that's something to celebrate and to hope that places where skeptics can meet, be friends and maybe even fall in love and get married will continue forever!
 
Blackadder said:
I am very disappointed that not a single 'Look at me I am getting 17.3 million in bonuses'-CEO has stepped up and donated 1 million in the past years to the JREF just for the MDC. Surely there must be a few generous freethinkers among the captains of industry????
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Bill Gates and Scrutinizer's Pal "Mr Buffet" are help up as examples of secular philanthropists, but you're right, I don't see them starting up a billion-dollar challenge.

kittynh said:
Heck we've got a JREF skeptic wedding this month!! It's the third JREF wedding to be I've heard about! Now that's something to celebrate and to hope that places where skeptics can meet, be friends and maybe even fall in love and get married will continue forever!
Click to expand...

A skeptical dating site - that is indeed something to aspire to.
 
Had a few thoughts about the issues raised in this thread.

Can the JREF continue after Randi dies or completely retires? Well the only reason that it couldn't would be if the JREF didn't have the finances to continue and given how much income Randi has generated for the JREF over the years that is quite a legitimate concern. But given that many organisations do survive the death of or retirement of their founder and figurehead I think it is a tad premature to assume that the JREF wouldn't be able to deal with this issue. Also the fact that the JREF survived Randi's near-death-experience and his subsequent unplanned drastically reduced workload and has already re-organised itself around Randi's semi-retirement shows that it can cope with even quite radical changes in the organisation.

Somewhere along the thread someone was saying something like "The JREF appears to be winding down." Well the JREF is a tiny organisation (albeit it has grown a bit over the last eighteen months or so) so it has never done "a lot" so it wouldn't take much of change for it to seem to be winding down. However the evidence is that it is engaging in more activities these days then it did say 5 years ago. (Whether you think the increase in activities are what it should be doing is an entirely different question.)
 
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Wowbagger said:
*snip*
The JREF Million Dollar Challenge is going away in a couple of years. But, others will crop up, to take its place. There already are a few strewn around.
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Unless Randi has changed his mind back it isn't ending now.;)
 
It's not an issue really. Once Randi "crosses over", John Edwards will be hired on as a liaison.
 
Magnifico2.0 said:
The foundation will maybe have to come up with a new schtick to get people to focus on who's telling stories and who ain't.
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I've recently been very annoyed by the way the MDC unintentionally encourages the delusions of the deluded.
In my opionion the MDC 2.0 should be offered to a handful of people only, people like John Edwards, Sylvia Browne, Uri Geller etc. (Or maybe on a national basis: I have a couple of Danish nominees ...)

It does not really help the self-deceived that their need to believe that they have supernatural powers and/or are chosen by God to deliver a message to the rest of humanity is supplemented by the delusion that they are about to become a million dollars richer. It also does not do much for the enlightenment of skeptics or doubters that a couple of self-deceivers that nobody believes in anyway are exposed as self-deceived.

As for Randi's impact on the rest of the world: Look at the number of translations of his articles and books!
I don't doubt that Skepticism will survive Randi, but unfortunately so will the need for skepticism in the near future. As is well known, the graveyards are full of indispensable people. Fortunately he is not one of them yet.
 
Magnifico2.0 said:
I think he'd probably want it to keep going. A good extension of his legacy.
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I think that he'd be even happier if it became redundant. Knowing that there was no further need for it and that its aims were achieved would be the ultimate legacy.
 
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Luke T. said:
I say that it seems like you are erroneously basing your views on a mistaken assumption that you have an accurate idea of the real world

One plus one does not equal eleventy
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But it does equal the number of people who have heard of JREF outside of the 2000 or so here.
That leaves about 300 million who have not. Give or take eleventy.
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Let me guess? You're an american?
 
Wowbagger said:
This is not a zero-sum game. JREF and its Forum can continue to operate, even if it is wildly out-inflated by the woo groups.
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The Foundation depends on contributions. If it does not grow at the same pace as the competition, it can lose contributions by being lost in the noise.

But also at issue is the question of whether Randi is actually committed to the furtherance of his foundation after he is gone, or if he just doesn't care.

Perhaps he just want to ensure Carlos has a steady income after he is gone.

Anyone's guess.
 
erlando said:
Let me guess? You're an american?
Click to expand...

The question of JREF's impact on the world would be even harder to measure outside the JREF bubble.

I'm sure the founation looks very busy and active from inside a Vegas conference room.
 
Some off topic posts removed. Please remember to stay on topic in threads, and also do not personalise discussions.
Also - do not post off topic in threads by complaining that no mod action has occurred, when none of the posts have been reported (or if they have, don't complain within 5 mins of reporting them). That's just stupid.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero
 
Let me summarize Luke T's point:
He believes that after Randi dies, that the JREF will fall apart. He bases this belief on...nothing really. He bases it on a complete and utter lack of information, wild speculation, ignorance about its successes or failure and on unrelated correlations.

In summary, he makes this claim based on his ignorance. Not very interesting at all.
 
Luke T. said:
The Foundation depends on contributions. If it does not grow at the same pace as the competition, it can lose contributions by being lost in the noise.
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Again, you deliberately misunderstand. The Foundation and other organizations are not in competition for the same dollars. Nobody who would donate to Sylvia Browne is going to donate to the JREF, and vice versa. It does not need to grow "as fast as" its competition to survive. You can keep insisting on this all you like, but it won't make it any more true.

That is what Wowbagger means by "this is not a zero sum game". He's right. It's not. Five dollars that is not donated to JREF does not automatically go to some woo-peddler. Sometimes, it just goes to buy a pint at the local.
 
remirol said:
Again, you deliberately misunderstand. The Foundation and other organizations are not in competition for the same dollars. Nobody who would donate to Sylvia Browne is going to donate to the JREF, and vice versa. It does not need to grow "as fast as" its competition to survive. You can keep insisting on this all you like, but it won't make it any more true.

That is what Wowbagger means by "this is not a zero sum game". He's right. It's not. Five dollars that is not donated to JREF does not automatically go to some woo-peddler. Sometimes, it just goes to buy a pint at the local.
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How does a woo become a woo? How does a skeptic become a skeptic? Everyone starts out a blank slate. Whoever writes on that person's mind first has the advantage and gets the dollars.

Simple marketing principles. If you are outpaced by the competition, you lose your market share.
 
Luke T. said:
How does a woo become a woo? How does a skeptic become a skeptic? Everyone starts out a blank slate. Whoever writes on that person's mind first has the advantage and gets the dollars.
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What the hell are you blathering on about? When I was very young I believed in stuff like UFOs, Sylvia Browne, and ghosts. I eventually grew out of that phase. I would imagine that the E in JREF helped. Also, FIRST does very well promoting science and technology and it does not reach kids until they are fairly old. It pretty much beats everyone on the funding front.
 
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Luke T. said:
How does a woo become a woo? How does a skeptic become a skeptic? Everyone starts out a blank slate. Whoever writes on that person's mind first has the advantage and gets the dollars.

Simple marketing principles. If you are outpaced by the competition, you lose your market share.
Click to expand...

I don't know how many more times I can repeat this: This isn't a zero-sum game. A dollar to Sylvia doesn't mean that dollar was ever available for JREF.

Also, the above implies a false dichotomy, that someone is either woo _or_ skeptic, with no realm inbetween. It isn't quite so simple in practice; there's a large grey area.
 
Luke T. said:
How does a woo become a woo? How does a skeptic become a skeptic? Everyone starts out a blank slate. Whoever writes on that person's mind first has the advantage and gets the dollars.

Simple marketing principles. If you are outpaced by the competition, you lose your market share.
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What Luke T. said.

Plus: You neglect the fact that separate ecosystems of human interest could persist indefinately. Someone like you would have probably predicted that the Amish would die out, as a viable way of life, as technology takes over more of most people's lives. But, they are still here, living in the United States!

I think you were probably taught some models of society that are far too simplisitic.
 
athon said:
I was also optimistic about Phil taking outreach and education a little more seriously, given he has somewhat closer ties with it. After a couple of unanswered emails (one suggesting more of a possible relationship between my own educational outreach group) and the JREF, and no real expression of willingness to seek expert advice on pedagogical matters, I'm not feeling that optimism any more.

Athon
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Other than restructuring some of the staff, if Phil's doing anything, it's under the radar. I spend a fair bit of time online researching, and don't see much of anything that he is doing that isn't related to his own blogs and books, or for that matter, what A Kovacs is doing. I know that organizing conferences is a tremendous job, and that it doesn't take place in the public eye. Running a a large organization, whether it's a for-profit business like I run, or a non-for-profit org, takes experience in business and personnel management, experience that you can't pull out of a pocket. I'm extremely disappointed that I've not seen anything of substance, but as I am a rather low-level contributor, I don't have anyone's ear. That you have have some valid experience in outreach and education, and have been ignored, is very disappointing as well.
 
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