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Why the murder of Healthcare Insurance CEO should end Private Health Insurance

acbytesla

Penultimate Amazing
acbytesla
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
36,569
I detest that they moved the assassination thread of the Healthcare executive to the Current Events thread even though it clearly wasn't so much a Current Events thread as it was about US Politics and the need to reform the US healthcare system. This ABSOLUTELY is a political issue. So I am creating a new thread.

While I don't believe in violence or murder. I do agree with Michael Moore and what he had to say in response to being named by Luigi Mangione in his manifesto about healthcare insurance.

After the killing of the CEO of United HealthCare, the largest of these billion dollar insurance companies, there was an immediate OUTPOURING of anger toward the health insurance industry. Some people have stepped forward to condemn this anger.

I am not one of them.

The anger is 1000% justified. It is long overdue for the media to cover it. It is not new. It has been boiling. And I’m not going to tamp it down or ask people to shut up. I want to pour gasoline on that anger.

Because this anger is not about the killing of a CEO. If everyone who was angry was ready to kill the CEOs, the CEOs would already be dead. That is not what this reaction is about. It is about the mass death and misery — the physical pain, the mental abuse, the medical debt, the bankruptcies in the face of denied claims and denied care and bottomless deductibles on top of ballooning premiums — that this “health care” industry has levied against the American people for decades. With no one standing in their way! Just a government — two broken parties — enabling this INDUSTRY’s theft and, yes, murder. https://www.michaelmoore.com/p/a-manifesto-against-for-profit-health
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I despise violence in any form. Luigi Mangione shined a light on violence committed against Americans who need healthcare by committing violence. It is sad it has come to this. But people can only take so much. I recommend that everyone read the entirety of Michael Moore's response in the link above. As well as watch Moore's 2007 movie Sicko a documentary about the healthcare industry.
 
Do you have a follow up post prepared? I'm not really seeing the why or the should promised by your thread title. Nor the how, come to think of it.

And yes, I do have a follow up post prepared. We haven't gotten to the part where your OP is fractally bad.
 
theprestige said:
Do you have a follow up post prepared? I'm not really seeing the why or the should promised by your thread title. Nor the how, come to think of it.

And yes, I do have a follow up post prepared. We haven't gotten to the part where your OP is fractally bad.
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I didn't think I needed to add to it to go forward. But clearly you think I do.

My point was that we need to take a wrecking ball to the disaster which is for profit healthcare and insurance. That it is a massive failure except for generating profit when it should be about satisfying American's need for healthcare. We need more doctors, not insurance adjusters. I would argue that our system of delivering healthcare is not only is it bad for patients, but bad for the businesses in America.

Again, I recommend that you and everyone read the link containing Moore's manifesto on this. He says it better than me.
 
In fairness, almost any social issue is going to be political, too. Many current events will also have a foot in that door.

While the need for single payer is laudable and worthy of standalone discussion, the assassination is solidly a different animal.
 
Thermal said:
In fairness, almost any social issue is going to be political, too. Many current events will also have a foot in that door.

While the need for single payer is laudable and worthy of standalone discussion, the assassination is solidly a different animal.
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I don't think it is.

The assassination appears to have been motivated by the failure of our healthcare system. And the public's surprising lack of empathy for a murder victim says a lot. It says a lot of people are mad. They are sick and tired of a system that is intent on continuing sodomizing the American people.

So much so that a lot of people are saying the executive had it coming. As Paddy Chayefsky said in the movie NETWORK,

"All I know is that first you've got to get mad. You've got to say, 'I'm a HUMAN BEING, God damn it! My life has VALUE!' So I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell, 'I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!'
Click to expand...
 
theprestige said:
Are there any historical examples of political assassination mandating major political reform?

On what basis should we recognize such a murder-mandate?
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I don't know. Usually, I think it backfires. It turns people against the political terrorist. But outside of establishment figures that hasn't happened. But revolutions have started that way. Maybe, although I'm skeptical that it will result in any change soon. I'm surprised that even many MAGA members are not sympathetic towards the health insurance execs.
 
acbytesla said:
I don't think it is.

The assassination appears to have been motivated by the failure of our healthcare system. And the public's surprising lack of empathy for a murder victim says a lot. It says a lot of people are mad. They are sick and tired of a system that is intent on continuing sodomizing the American people.

So much so that a lot of people are saying the executive had it coming. As Paddy Chayefsky said in the movie NETWORK,
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I wonder how many people are thinking about those in reach of their violence, considering a "sick and tired" defense. "I paid my landlord this month's rent in lead, because he had it coming."

That's where this leads.
 
Is the OP proposing a UHS for the US? Because this, in my view, will never happen.

Australia has a hybrid health system, with government funded public hospitals but also private hospitals where you have the choice of doctors and private rooms. Like many others I have private health insurance to cover this option. Some people here have a philosophic problem with that, but I don’t and it works.

Also, Michael Moore? How relevant is he in this era?
 
theprestige said:
I wonder how many people are thinking about those in reach of their violence, considering a "sick and tired" defense. "I paid my landlord this month's rent in lead, because he had it coming."

That's where this leads.
Click to expand...
Now that you mention it, my mortgage company doesn't exactly send me warm wishes...
 
theprestige said:
I wonder how many people are thinking about those in reach of their violence, considering a "sick and tired" defense. "I paid my landlord this month's rent in lead, because he had it coming."

That's where this leads.
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Maybe.

If history has taught us anything, eventually, the peasants get so tired of being mistreated by the lords of the manor that they will reach for the pitchforks.

Throughout my life I've watched America get wealthier and wealthier while at the same time watched the conditions for the masses get worse and worse.
 
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lionking said:
Is the OP proposing a UHS for the US? Because this, in my view, will never happen.

Australia has a hybrid health system, with government funded public hospitals but also private hospitals where you have the choice of doctors and private rooms. Like many others I have private health insurance to cover this option. Some people here have a philosophic problem with that, but I don’t and it works.

Also, Michael Moore? How relevant is he in this era?
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I'm suggesying basic Universal Health Insurance to cover most procedures. I'm fine with premium health insurance to cover the rest. The ACA just delays what should be done.
 
theprestige said:
Are there any historical examples of political assassination mandating major political reform?

On what basis should we recognize such a murder-mandate?
Click to expand...

I guess in Japan there has been an example in which the assassin of Abe was found to have been aggrieved by Abe's connections to the Unification Church (Moonies) which he blamed for his mother's poverty after she donated heavily to the "Church".

There was something of an outcry by the public at the Unification Church's heavy involvement in Japanese politics and so the Japanese Parliament passed legislation aimed at reducing their influence and/or making any influence transparent.

Of course, people don't want assassination to be a way to petition government, but at the same time there is also something perverse about deliberately doing nothing about a problem purely on the basis that an assassin pointed out the problem, especially if the problem was already known about.
 
theprestige said:
Have they? What revolutions have started this way?
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You could start with the Russian revolution. The assassination of the Archduke of Serbia started a revolution and eventually WWI. A Google search includes others.
 
Change is difficult. There are many aspects to all of this. For instance we take everything to court. Malpractice happens. But bad doctors in other countries quickly lose their license.
Drug costs have many factors. But it is hard to block due patent law.

And there is no Mike Johnson out there to eradicate bad insurance. He will only take out welfare, entitlements and Medicare by the roots.
 
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lionking said:
Is the OP proposing a UHS for the US? Because this, in my view, will never happen.

Australia has a hybrid health system, with government funded public hospitals but also private hospitals where you have the choice of doctors and private rooms. Like many others I have private health insurance to cover this option. Some people here have a philosophic problem with that, but I don’t and it works.

Also, Michael Moore? How relevant is he in this era?
Click to expand...
I think most of the developed world has this model. Even the UK. The relative proportions of the UHS and private system may vary. The exact method of funding of the UHS may vary hypothecated tax or insurance.
 
Planigale said:
I think most of the developed world has this model. Even the UK. The relative proportions of the UHS and private system may vary. The exact method of funding of the UHS may vary hypothecated tax or insurance.
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None of this addresses my post in any way.
 
Planigale said:
I think most of the developed world has this model. Even the UK. The relative proportions of the UHS and private system may vary. The exact method of funding of the UHS may vary hypothecated tax or insurance.
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Looking at the likes of health outcome metrics across the many countries that have UHSs and the like the UK's NHSs are probably not the model if you are wanting to create a new system.

For a look at how much an outlier the USA is look at this report (it's about the not surprising to anyone failures of the UK NHSs but the USA is one of the countries used in comparisons) https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insigh...ng-nhs-to-health-care-systems-other-countries
 
Darat said:
Well apart from it added additional information that folk may not realise, carried the topic forward and so on...
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You think the few people in this thread do not know that the UK and other countries have a UHS? What groundbreaking information was added?
 
lionking said:
You think the few people in this thread do not know that the UK and other countries have a UHS? What groundbreaking information was added?
Click to expand...
Since I didn’t make either such claims why are you quoting my post? Did you quote the wrong post?
 
But I have a solution. No one has to kill anyone. And it doesn’t cost anything. I have a solution that does not involve any violence. Unless violence to you means us taking money out of your rich effing pockets, unless violence to you means you can’t send your kids to USC or UPenn or buy a third vacation home or a fourth Tesla or a fifth Land Rover or another yacht.

The solution is simple. Throw this entire system in the trash, dismantle this immoral business that profits off the lives of human beings and monetizes our deaths, that murders us or leaves us to die, destroy it all, and instead, in its place, give us all the same health care that every other civilized country on Earth has:

Universal, free, compassionate, and full of life.

Give us Scotland. Give us Uruguay. Give us Taiwan. Give us Canada or give us death! Just go ahead and deny us all now the care that we will someday need. Or give us Canada and let us get busy curling.
www.michaelmoore.com

A Manifesto Against For-Profit Health Insurance Companies — by Michael Moore

I hereby give you my Oscar-nominated Documentary on the Killer Health Insurance companies like United HealthCare —SICKO — for FREE… and let’s end and replace this so-called “health care system” NOW
www.michaelmoore.com www.michaelmoore.com
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The UK isn't the only example.
 
The sadness of America's predicament is that while it enriches a few it is destroying lives and businesses. There is no such thing as a perfect solution to the problem of providing healthcare. But the for profit system is only good for those that profit by it. How many Americans have to die because they are denied needed health care? How many people have to declare bankruptcy? How many companies have to fail because of the cost of health insurance?
 
Nope, changing to universal health care because fella who is almost certainly suffering from undiagnosed bipolar disorder or schizophrenia murdered someone would be terrible. It sends the clear message, "If you have a political cause, kill someone and you will get your way"

We should switch to some sort of universal system because we already pay for it and get about a quarter of what taxes pay for and about half what the entirety of what we pay for.

The problem I have is that the folks who really want it, seem to want the worst versions of it. Seriously, medicare for all, an expensive system where almost everyone who can pays for additional coverage. Lets do what Tawain did, have a group of experts including economists, politician(preferably retired) and medical professionals survey the worlds options and recommend a two or three versions. I suspect, Germany's will be in the top 3, Something like Canada's will.

The UK's will not.

Also, let's not pretend that universal coverage will solve all the problems. We will still have to ration care in some way because we still live in a world of limited resources. Long waits seems to me most common downside to government run systems. They also will often deny care deemed experimental. Doctors will typically get paid less making it a less attractive profession, likely part of the cause of longer waits.

If we had universal care tomorrow, we still have shorter lives than most of the developed world too. We are too fat, too violent, and too depressed.
 
ahhell said:
Nope, changing to universal health care because fella who is almost certainly suffering from undiagnosed bipolar disorder or schizophrenia murdered someone would be terrible. It sends the clear message, "If you have a political cause, kill someone and you will get your way"

We should switch to some sort of universal system because we already pay for it and get about a quarter of what taxes pay for and about half what the entirety of what we pay for.

The problem I have is that the folks who really want it, seem to want the worst versions of it. Seriously, medicare for all, an expensive system where almost everyone who can pays for additional coverage. Lets do what Tawain did, have a group of experts including economists, politician(preferably retired) and medical professionals survey the worlds options and recommend a two or three versions. I suspect, Germany's will be in the top 3, Something like Canada's will.

The UK's will not.

Also, let's not pretend that universal coverage will solve all the problems. We will still have to ration care in some way because we still live in a world of limited resources. Long waits seems to me most common downside to government run systems. They also will often deny care deemed experimental. Doctors will typically get paid less making it a less attractive profession, likely part of the cause of longer waits.

If we had universal care tomorrow, we still have shorter lives than most of the developed world too. We are too fat, too violent, and too depressed.
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I pretty much agree with everything you have said. That said, even the UK's system you malign is better than America's for profit health care system.

And while I don't much like the idea of using violence for political needs, our system is quietly killing people. No one really wants a Reign of Terror. I'm not Robespierre. Still, isnt our system of paying off elected officials and corporate greed a form of political violence? How many people did United HealthCare kill with a letter that said "Sorry, your claim is denied"?

What difference does it make to the mourners at the funeral service that their loved one was killed with a bullet or a pen?
 
acbytesla said:
I am. Isn't that obvious? Maybe I'm Sisyphus...or maybe I'm Thomas Edison. All I do know for sure is that for me, it is worth the effort.
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A s long as they demonstrably don't care if you live or die, in the most literal sense, I don't think reasoning with them sprinkled with morality is going to do a goddamned thing.
 
ahhell said:
Nope, changing to universal health care because fella who is almost certainly suffering from undiagnosed bipolar disorder or schizophrenia murdered someone would be terrible. It sends the clear message, "If you have a political cause, kill someone and you will get your way"

We should switch to some sort of universal system because we already pay for it and get about a quarter of what taxes pay for and about half what the entirety of what we pay for.

The problem I have is that the folks who really want it, seem to want the worst versions of it. Seriously, medicare for all, an expensive system where almost everyone who can pays for additional coverage. Lets do what Tawain did, have a group of experts including economists, politician(preferably retired) and medical professionals survey the worlds options and recommend a two or three versions. I suspect, Germany's will be in the top 3
, Something like Canada's will.
The UK's will not.

Also, let's not pretend that universal coverage will solve all the problems. We will still have to ration care in some way because we still live in a world of limited resources. Long waits seems to me most common downside to government run systems. They also will often deny care deemed experimental. Doctors will typically get paid less making it a less attractive profession, likely part of the cause of longer waits.

If we had universal care tomorrow, we still have shorter lives than most of the developed world too. We are too fat, too violent, and too depressed.
Click to expand...
Word advice - don't follow Canada's lead - they spend way too much for what they get. France is a good one to look at, plus the Nordics/Scandi lot.

ETA: Also be very careful making comparisons with the UK and so called "salaries" of medical professionals, many in the UK NHS system also have a private practice as well as their NHS job so yes the quoted salary may be "£60,000" a year but that is just the NHS salary.

And there is no need for any medical professional in the USA to be paid less to have as good a universal coverage as most countries. The ones that will paid less or have their jobs taken away will be the likes of administrators and clerical staff.
 
While I agree, our system is clearly very flawed, you can literally make the case that every health care system kills people in the same way because they do in fact have to ration care.

Loading…

www.oecd-ilibrary.org

Avoidable death, or death cuased by inadequate care is a thing in all systems. The US is worse than most, are they all effectively the same as the executing someone?
 
Darat said:
Word advice - don't follow Canada's lead - they spend way too much for what they get. France is a good one to look at, plus the Nordics/Scandi lot.
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France has a staggering tax rate. If we were paying that percentage for health care, we'd be on the Cadillac coverage model here and no one would be complaining about their coverage.
 
We'd also expect educaiton and properly funded safety net...which they have
 
ahhell said:
While I agree, our system is clearly very flawed, you can literally make the case that every health care system kills people in the same way because they do in fact have to ration care.

Loading…

www.oecd-ilibrary.org

Avoidable death, or death cuased by inadequate care is a thing in all systems. The US is worse than most, are they all effectively the same as the executing someone?
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Maybe.

But one is a choice regarding the difficulties of helping everyone. The other is the choice of whether one person can buy a third vacation home, a yacht, a private jet, or if many people's sister, mother, father or brother will die. This should never be the choice.
 
acbytesla said:
I pretty much agree with everything you have said. That said, even the UK's system you malign is better than America's for profit health care system.

And while I don't much like the idea of using violence for political needs, our system is quietly killing people. No one really wants a Reign of Terror. I'm not Robespierre. Still, isnt our system of paying off elected officials and corporate greed a form of political violence? How many people did United HealthCare kill with a letter that said "Sorry, your claim is denied"?

What difference does it make to the mourners at the funeral service that their loved one was killed with a bullet or a pen?
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And the system is failing badly - the USA has very high infant mortality rates. high childhood deaths (even if you remove the deaths from guns) compared to most other comparable countries.
 
Tell Americans "hey how about we whack you at a 60+% effective tax rate?" and see how reasonable they think you are.
 
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