WHat the ◊◊◊◊ is going on with the Supreme Court?

Dorian Gray

Hypocrisy Detector
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Bush Can Hold Citizens Without Charges

Let me show that to you again, folks.

Bush Can Hold Citizens Without Charges

5 minutes ago

By ANNE GEARAN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court ruled narrowly Monday that Congress gave President Bush (news - web sites) the power to hold an American citizen without charges or trial, but said the detainee can challenge his treatment in court.

The 6-3 ruling sided with the administration on an important legal point raised in the war on terrorism. At the same time, it left unanswered other hard questions raised by the case of Yaser Esam Hamdi, who has been detained more than two years and who was only recently allowed to see a lawyer.

The administration had fought any suggestion that Hamdi or another U.S.-born terrorism suspect could go to court, saying that such a legal fight posed a threat to the president's power to wage war as he sees fit.

"We have no reason to doubt that courts, faced with these sensitive matters, will pay proper heed both to the matters of national security that might arise in an individual case and to the constitutional limitations safeguarding essential liberties that remain vibrant even in times of security concerns," Justice Sandra Day O'Connor (news - web sites) wrote for the court.

O'Connor said that Hamdi "unquestionably has the right to access to counsel."

The court threw out a lower court ruling that supported the government's position fully, and Hamdi's case now returns to a lower court.

The careful opinion seemed deferential to the White House, but did not give the president everything he wanted.

The ruling is the largest test so far of executive power in the post-Sept. 11 assault on terrorism.

The court has yet to rule in the similar case of American-born detainee Jose Padilla and in another case testing the legal rights of detainees held as enemy combatants at a U.S. military prison facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

O'Connor said the court has "made clear that a state of war is not a blank check for the president when it comes to the rights of the nation's citizens."

She was joined by Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist and justices Stephen Breyer (news - web sites) and Anthony Kennedy (news - web sites) in her view that Congress had authorized detentions such as Hamdi's in what she called very limited circumstances.

Congress voted shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks to give the president significant authority to pursue terrorists, but Hamdi's lawyers said that authority did not extend to the indefinite detention of an American citizen without charges or trial.

Two other justices, David H. Souter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg (news - web sites), would have gone further and declared Hamdi's detention improper. Still, they joined O'Connor and the others to say that Hamdi, and by extension others who may be in his position, are entitled to their day in court.

Hamdi and Padilla are in military custody at a Navy brig in South Carolina. They have been interrogated repeatedly without lawyers present.

The Bush administration contends that as "enemy combatants," the men are not entitled to the usual rights of prisoners of war set out in the Geneva Conventions. Enemy combatants are also outside the constitutional protections for ordinary criminal suspects, the government has claimed.

The administration argued that the president alone has authority to order their detention, and that courts have no business second-guessing that decision.

The case has additional resonance because of recent revelations that U.S. soldiers abused Iraqi prisoners and used harsh interrogation methods at a prison outside Baghdad. For some critics of the administration's security measures, the pictures of abuse at Abu Ghraib prison illustrated what might go wrong if the military and White House have unchecked authority over prisoners.

At oral arguments in the Padilla case in April, an administration lawyer assured the court that Americans abide by international treaties against torture, and that the president or the military would not allow even mild torture as a means to get information.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...040628/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_enemy_combatants

SURE you can contest your detention or treatment, but after 2 or 3 years, who gives a crap? I would much rather NOT BE DETAINED IN THE FIRST PLACE than have to hire a lawyer and battle the US government for half my life. This ruling is an outrage

ON TOP of the outrage in the last couple of weeks where they ruled that since that guy didn't have custody of his child, he could not challenge the 'under God' portion of the Pledge.

What is going on with this Supreme Court all of a sudden? I mean, theoretically Bush could order YOUR detention, designate you as an enemy combatant, torture the living crap out of you, beat you to a pulp, subject you to all manner of humiliating and abusive things, and then in a few short years, your legal counsel MIGHT be able to get you out.

What do you think about THAT?
 
Seems that some of those appointments are starting to pay off for the Right. Give Dubya another term and maybe one (or two?) more and stand by...
 
Bikewer said:
Seems that some of those appointments are starting to pay off for the Right. Give Dubya another term and maybe one (or two?) more and stand by...

Yes, the only reason I can think of that answers the question posed in thread title is: too many wacky republican b*sh-*ss kissing justices.

This is outrageous. What do citizens do when the Supreme Court makes decisions that are unconstitutional?

Vote for Kerry, hope the older justices step down or buy a farm and appoint better justices?

In the meantine, citizens will be mistreated.

How are you to argue in court of the President has you arrested and denies you legal counsel and/or trial?
 
Could the Congress pass a law to prevent Bush from having thsi power? If so, I hope right thinking people have already written one up just in case this happened.

I think Bush may have lost some more supporters today. At least, I hope.
 
I was recently taken aback, when I heard about the Cowboy Ruling, wherein a literal cowboy on horse back was stopped by a state trooper (in Montana or Wyoming or some state like that), and asked to provide identification.

Since wallets tend to make for an uncomfortable ride, the horseman had none, and was not so inclined to offer up his personal information to Mr. Highway Jones. The man wan arrested and charge with obstruction of justice.

It was just a passing story that I didn't hear everything about, but the Court decided that the State DOES have a right to know who you are.

My findings are that this clears the way for whatever 'identification system' the State adopts to be forced upon the citizens. Be it a national ID Card, a bio-chip, or national tatoos encoded with ID #'s.

I heard one babtist call it the "Mark of the Beast Ruling".

:(

THAT decisions gets little airplay???
 
tamiO said:


Yes, the only reason I can think of that answers the question posed in thread title is: too many wacky republican b*sh-*ss kissing justices.

This is outrageous. What do citizens do when the Supreme Court makes decisions that are unconstitutional?

Vote for Kerry, hope the older justices step down or buy a farm and appoint better justices?

In the meantine, citizens will be mistreated.

How are you to argue in court of the President has you arrested and denies you legal counsel and/or trial?
I love it when laypeople deride Supreme Court decisions as unconstitutional. Still, your suggestions are reasonable ones. Another option is amending the relevant portions of the Constitution to make them less susceptible to multiple interpretations.
 
tamiO said:
Could the Congress pass a law to prevent Bush from having thsi power? If so, I hope right thinking people have already written one up just in case this happened.

I think Bush may have lost some more supporters today. At least, I hope.
My totally uninformed opinion is that such a law would violate the seperation of powers, and in any case it's a repuplican controled Congress, so I seriously doubt that they would pass a law so obviously snupping the president. Party dicipline is looser in the US, but still.
 
I love it when laypeople deride Supreme Court decisions as unconstitutional.
I love it when people are condescending and arrogant.

If you were arrested and taken to Guantanamo, for example, how would you complain to a federal judge about your treatment? Bush could restrict your access to lawyers.

You have the right to an attorney - but this ruling potentially takes that right away. You have the right to remain silent - while we are beating the crap out of you?

Come ON!
 
The way I interpret this is that it's actually a reduction in the powers granted to the Presidential Office. This ruling guarantees the detainee legal representation.

From the story posted:
O'Connor said the court has "made clear that a state of war is not a blank check for the president when it comes to the rights of the nation's citizens."

To me this statement indicates that before this ruling, the president did have carte blanche.
 
Theres 2 cases dealing with GITMO. Im reading stories that say the Gitmo guys GET court access. That the court ruled against Bush who wanted to just hold whomever without any due process.

So the Sup Ct accutally gave them rights.




Terror suspects get court access


Many Guantanamo detainees have been held for more than two years
The US Supreme Court has ruled that terror suspects held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba can use the US legal system to challenge their detention.
The six-to-three ruling is seen as a major blow to the Bush administration and could herald hundreds of appeals in US courts on behalf of the inmates.

Lower US courts had previously ruled that Guantanamo prisoners were beyond US legal jurisdiction
 
tamiO said:

This is outrageous. What do citizens do when the Supreme Court makes decisions that are unconstitutional?

I've been wondering that for decades...

Join the Libertarian Party and demand a reversal of Federalism and the application of strict constructionism to the Constitution.
 
tamiO said:
This is outrageous. What do citizens do when the Supreme Court makes decisions that are unconstitutional?

Calm down. Click the link provided by Dorian Gray. The headline and the story has now changed:

Enemy Combatants Win Right to U.S. Courts

4 minutes ago

By ANNE GEARAN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court dealt a setback to the Bush administration's war against terrorism Monday, ruling that both U.S. citizens and foreign nationals seized as potential terrorists can challenge their treatment in U.S. courts.

The court refused to endorse a central claim of the White House since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11 2001: That the government has authority to seize and detain suspected terrorists or their protectors and indefinitely deny access to courts or lawyers while interrogating them.

The court did back the administration in one important respect, ruling that Congress gave President Bush (news - web sites) the authority to seize and hold a U.S. citizen, in this case Louisiana-born Yaser Esam Hamdi, as an alleged enemy combatant.

That bright spot for the administration was almost eclipsed, however, by the court's ruling that Hamdi can use American courts to argue that he is being held illegally. Foreign-born men held at a Navy prison camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, can also have their day in U.S. courts, the justices said.

[Edited to add:]

See? Doesn't the new slant make it all better?
 
This is outrageous. What do citizens do when the Supreme Court makes decisions that are unconstitutional?

I know that was probably rhetorical, but the answer is: amend the Constitution. Change it to strip the President of this power. Of course, if you can't get 2/3 of the country behind your cause, you're screwed. Welcome to the USA under George W. Bush. He'll do whatever he wants, and damn it, if you question him, you're a traitor. I wish Carl Sagan had lived to see this day.

Could the Congress pass a law to prevent Bush from having thsi power?
Probably not. Unconstitutional laws (as judged by the Supreme Court) are invalid.
 
Tmy said:
Theres 2 cases dealing with GITMO. Im reading stories that say the Gitmo guys GET court access. That the court ruled against Bush who wanted to just hold whomever without any due process.

So the Sup Ct accutally gave them rights.




Terror suspects get court access


Many Guantanamo detainees have been held for more than two years
The US Supreme Court has ruled that terror suspects held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba can use the US legal system to challenge their detention.
The six-to-three ruling is seen as a major blow to the Bush administration and could herald hundreds of appeals in US courts on behalf of the inmates.

Lower US courts had previously ruled that Guantanamo prisoners were beyond US legal jurisdiction

Yep. From the article cited in the OP it appears even the ACLU believes this ruling is a giant step in the right direction. It allows for some level of due process for all detainees.

Steven R. Shapiro, legal director of the ACLU, called the rulings "a strong repudiation of the administration's argument that its actions in the war on terrorism are beyond the rule of law and unreviewable by American courts."

As far as the other recent rulings by this court go I think the Court is painted unfairly, and this is a criminal defense attorney saying this. Their "negative" rulings are exagerated and the "positive" ones largely ignored. For example, they seem to be on the verge of decaring the federal sentencing guidelines unconstitutional as violating the right to trial by jury. Nobody cares. They recently decided a case putting life back in the right of an accused to confront witnesses. Nobody notices.

Now they deal a huge setback to the administration's stance that the detainees cannot challenge their detention in court, and somehow it is seen as a negative decision. Good grief.
 
So what's the big deal? The court ruled that CONGRESS gave Bush the authority to seize US citizens under an "anti-terror" law... but that they, on the other hand, can challange the seizure in court.

Once you read past the first paragraph, it looks that--as it usually does--the SC didn't concern itself with what sort of headline its ruling will make, or if it will be popular with the press or the white house, but rather with the issue itself: who has the right to do what.

The same SC ruled both that laws criminalizing homosexuals are unconstitutional and that the person asking them to determine if the pledge of allegiance is unconstitutional because it mentions God has no right to be heard in the case at all. It got blasted by the right for the first and blasted by the left for the second.

But in reality, it seems that it decided the issues for technical reasons and had little concern with what either O'Reilly or the ACLU will say about them.
 
Kodiak said:


I've been wondering that for decades...

Join the Libertarian Party and demand a reversal of Federalism and the application of strict constructionism to the Constitution.

Haw haw haw....


Better to have said:

"Join the Libertarian Party, it's as useful as voting for Nader. Have fun standing up for your principles for the next few terms while the Bush and Cheney administrations totally trash your rights!"


If you REALLY believe in Libertarianism, BUILD A BASE OF SUPPORT. Run candidates and ACTUALLY WIN SOME SEATS in national elections before you pull stunts like running protest votes for president.


Ahhh.... yelling into the wind with these yahoos. Same thing with the Greens. They're always running someone for President, but never running people for city council.
 
Skeptic, you are correct, I believe, in your analysis.

This ruling is a good thing, and proper.

I notice Souter would have gone farther, and questioned the detainment without charge.

However, if Congress gave that right to the President, that's the constitutionally acceptable path, as I see it. As long as there's judicial review.



The Supreme Court just put Humpty-dumpty's Checks and Balances back together again.
 
Silicon said:


Haw haw haw....


Better to have said:

"Join the Libertarian Party, it's as useful as voting for Nader. Have fun standing up for your principles for the next few terms while the Bush and Cheney administrations totally trash your rights!"


If you REALLY believe in Libertarianism, BUILD A BASE OF SUPPORT. Run candidates and ACTUALLY WIN SOME SEATS in national elections before you pull stunts like running protest votes for president.


Ahhh.... yelling into the wind with these yahoos. Same thing with the Greens. They're always running someone for President, but never running people for city council.

I've got to tell ya I agree with you 100%.

I have always voted for one of the two electable candidates, but, as I've already made known in this forum, if October polling begins to suggest a double-digit Bush defeat (55-45 or worse), I'll cast a protest vote for Badnarik.
 
It seems scary but it is a step in the right direction, for two years the administration has been holding people incomunicado without even a habeus corpus hearing. This ruling does seem to indicate that the government does not have the right to do so.

We must alos remeber that the SCOTUS only rules on the legality and Consitution under the restrictions of the cases brought before it, and on the merits of those cases.

So while it is not the yell for FREEDOM that we might have wished, it is a head nod towards due process.
 
Nasarius said:


I know that was probably rhetorical, but the answer is: amend the Constitution. Change it to strip the President of this power. Of course, if you can't get 2/3 of the country behind your cause, you're screwed. Welcome to the USA under George W. Bush. He'll do whatever he wants, and damn it, if you question him, you're a traitor. I wish Carl Sagan had lived to see this day.
If we accept the premise that the SCOTUS evil and determined to misinterpret the Constitution no matter what, then changing the Constitution won't help. A more effective (and easier) response would be to impeach them. Of course, this premise, like the premise that Bush is acting like a dictator, is unsupported by reality.
 
Gotcha there, Kodiak.

With my leanings, if there was a chance in Hell of a libertarian candidate for President, I'd vote for him/her this cycle.

Not because I'm a full-on Lib, but because I believe in enough of the principled stands that seem to be eluding both parties.
 
Kodiak said:
I've been wondering that for decades...

Join the Libertarian Party and demand a reversal of Federalism and the application of strict constructionism to the Constitution.

Don't you mean restoration of Federalism? This is Nationalism, not Federalism.

Man...so now, according to the Supreme Court, if you insult a politician within 90 days of an election they can come to you and say "Papers, please" and take you off somewhere without charge. For the FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE, I am seriously considering buying a gun. If my kids were old enough where I knew they would be safe with one around, I would. That way, if they want to come for me, I can give them a first-hand demonstration of my interpretation of the Second Amendment...
 
Nasarius said:
I know that was probably rhetorical, but the answer is: amend the Constitution. Change it to strip the President of this power.

Um, the Constitution already does strip the President of this power. In fact, what he's doing arguably fits the Constitutional definition of treason (waging war against the US). What's the point in amending the Constitution if they're ignoring the Constitution to begin with?
 
Suddenly said:
Now they deal a huge setback to the administration's stance that the detainees cannot challenge their detention in court, and somehow it is seen as a negative decision.

Because THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO. It is up to the GOVERNMENT to prove that the detention is warranted. You should know that.
 
Kodiak said:
I have always voted for one of the two electable candidates, but, as I've already made known in this forum, if October polling begins to suggest a double-digit Bush defeat (55-45 or worse), I'll cast a protest vote for Badnarik.

Polls in your own state, of course, right? You know your vote is worthless outside of that other than for protest, right?
 
Let's see...in addition to slapping down the administration in the two cases mentioned above, the USSC also refused to uphold internet censorship, told police that they can't question suspects first, then Mirandize, upheld the rights of the handicapped against state's rights, allowed student loans to be included in bankruptcy filings, protected low IQ citizens from the death penalty, and kept judges from arbitraily piling on sentences in the absence of a jury.

Obviously a bunch of right wing thugs who just sit there and wait for the White House to call with voting instructions....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
I hope Kerry doesn't win the election, 'cause Bush can then just stuff him in jail forever.
 
Um, the Constitution already does strip the President of this power. In fact, what he's doing arguably fits the Constitutional definition of treason (waging war against the US). What's the point in amending the Constitution if they're ignoring the Constitution to begin with?
In addition, what the President has done by confining people without access to courts, without charges, without counsel, for an undetermined amount of time arguably fits the legal definition of kidnapping. And murder, in the cases of those detainees that did not survive detention.
 
shanek said:


Don't you mean restoration of Federalism? This is Nationalism, not Federalism.

Not as I understand it. Maybe I should of said "...and demand a reversal of increased Federalism...". Over the last 80-90 years especially, we have seen an incremental increase in Federalism (a move towards an increasingly stronger central government) every time a national emergency or similar crisis has affected the United States. The Patriot Act is just the latest such instance in a long line of unconstitutional "power-grabs" by the central government committed by leaders on both the left and the right. The balance of power between the Central Government and the States needs to be adjusted back to what the framers and the constitution originally called for: a true balance. The libertarian party is the best chance we have to restore that balance.
 
shanek said:


Polls in your own state, of course, right? You know your vote is worthless outside of that other than for protest, right?

Yes, I'm only concerned with the numbers in Michigan.
 
It's really been funny, the contradictory coverage of this situation.

I was listening to the radio when it came out, and the announcer said, "Coming up, a victory for the Bush administration in the Supreme Court over detaining unlawful combatants..." and I was already snarling, and then the actual report was of how he'd more or less been smacked down by the courts both on unlawful combatants and at Guantanamo Bay detainees...
 
This decision did underline the right of the 'detainees' to have a lawyer visit them and represent them.

That is certainly a major improvement in their situation of being dropped in a black box "forever" and cut off from any legal representation.

Of course, we'll have to see if competent lawyers are allowed in to visit with, talk to and represent the prisoners. Chances are good, seeing as Red Cross inspections and input has caused improvements in these prisons already. (Though it's disturbing that the International Red Cross had to step in and 'give feedback' like that to the U.S. about prison conditions, isn't it?)
 
Kodiak said:
Not as I understand it. Maybe I should of said "...and demand a reversal of increased Federalism...".

Federalism is a system of government whereby separate and sovereign states are united by a limited central government. Hamilton and the others only took the name "Federalist" because if they had called themselves "Nationalists" (which is what they were) then pretty much everyone would have been against them. That left the real Federalists like Jefferson with the contradictory label "anti-Federalists." James Madison originally allied himself with the Federalists because he was a genuine Federalist; once he saw that the others were misusing the label he went over to Jefferson's side.

[strokes his pet's fur] Do you like my dog? [pet says, "Meow! Meow!"]

Over the last 80-90 years especially, we have seen an incremental increase in Federalism (a move towards an increasingly stronger central government)

Actually, that's a decrease in Federalism. Federalism means there's a division between the state and Federal governments. That division has been slowly eroded since the end of the Civil War. The "power-grabs" you mentioned are just more examples of that.

The balance of power between the Central Government and the States needs to be adjusted back to what the framers and the constitution originally called for: a true balance. The libertarian party is the best chance we have to restore that balance.

Agreed 100%.
 
evildave said:
This decision did underline the right of the 'detainees' to have a lawyer visit them and represent them.

That is good, plus the supporting their ability to contest their confinement in court, only in the context of the tyranny that existed before. The Supreme Court still upheld the abrogation of due process that takes place here, though.
 
Let's see...in addition to slapping down the administration in the two cases mentioned above, the USSC also refused to uphold internet censorship, told police that they can't question suspects first, then Mirandize, upheld the rights of the handicapped against state's rights, allowed student loans to be included in bankruptcy filings, protected low IQ citizens from the death penalty, and kept judges from arbitraily piling on sentences in the absence of a jury.

Obviously a bunch of right wing thugs who just sit there and wait for the White House to call with voting instructions....
Nice point. Now tell us all the good things Ted Bundy did, and tell us all the good things Stalin did, and tell us all the good things Benedict Arnold did.

I am not comparing the SCOTUS to those guys in reality - I am making the point that you can't negate the bad things you do with the good. Bad things are bad things, period, and it seems like you are saying that if Bill Gates donated billions to charity that would entitle him to kill someone without fear of imprisonment.

Now before you get caught up in all the headline stuff, realize that if Bush calls someone an 'enemy combatant', suddenly they DO NOT fall under the ruling of the Supreme Court in actual practice. If no one KNOWS about detainees, they won't get any rights. In other words, this ruling looks good on paper, but in reality, Bush is not being rebuked or even scolded for his past actions concerning detainees. Those people might officially have the rights the SCOTUS gave them, but will they actually see those rights exercised? I am betting (Abu Ghraib) not.
 
Dorian Gray said:
Now before you get caught up in all the headline stuff, realize that if Bush calls someone an 'enemy combatant', suddenly they DO NOT fall under the ruling of the Supreme Court in actual practice. If no one KNOWS about detainees, they won't get any rights. In other words, this ruling looks good on paper, but in reality, Bush is not being rebuked or even scolded for his past actions concerning detainees. Those people might officially have the rights the SCOTUS gave them, but will they actually see those rights exercised? I am betting (Abu Ghraib) not.

That's the very point I was making—by putting the onus on the detainee to complain, you aren't solving anything. They may not give him access to anyone to complain to. The only effective means of stopping this atrocity is to restrict the behavior of those detaining him, which the Supreme Court didn't do. They get to keep doing the same thing, and if the detainee can't get to anyone to complain to, oh well.
 

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