What did Democrats do wrong?

[Roger Ramjets]

This. Let's say Harris' opponent was a cannibal. Would it be extreme to point out that he was a cannibal?

Making up blood libel about how black people eat cats and dogs is extreme. Fantasizing about putting your political opponent in front of a firing squad is extreme, or any of the other times Dump showed he wished violence or death on his political opponents, starting with when he egged his supporters to beat up people who disagreed with him at his rallies, or when he hinted that there could be a '2nd amendment solution' to Hillary Clinton's run for president.

Calling a spade a spade? I wish they would do it more.

I disagree. Making a big deal out of someone's preferred foods seems hypercritical to me. What would it have to do with his ability to do the job of President? I don't remember Harris saying anything about Trump's eating habits, and I hope she didn't - as that would be counterproductive.

OTOH, if true it might make it difficult for him to keep staff alive. So there's that. But instead of outright calling him a cannibal, I would point to ways it might make him unsuitable. For example it's a well known fact that cannibalism can transmit neurological diseases. So Harris could have suggested that Trump's diet was causing mental decline, without actually using the C word.

 

[dirtywick]

Fair enough. Trump himself has publicly expressed admiration of fascists and indicated a desire to be like them. So calling him a fascist shouldn't even be criticism to anyone who approves (ie. 50% of voters). It's simply the most accurate (and therefore least critical) word to describe it - with no indication as to whether you think it's good or bad. After all, Mussolini did improve the country's railways, as well as reducing unemployment and investing in other infrastructure. If it wasn't for siding with Hitler he might have been seen as a good guy!

i agree and that's what i mean by mild. she didn't even call him a fascist, she agreed with an interview question asking if he was and cited his own bizarre and complimentary remarks about hitler and pivoted into a pitch about he she'll reach across the aisle and not compliment hitler. i don't find any of that, especially given the way it was presented, to be outlandish criticism. most of the time both biden and harris avoided even talking about him at all. so, very mild imo

 

[arthwollipot]

This. On the example on trans people, I've got friends who are trans and I'm horrified by how American LGBTQ+ people are treated, but... I also wish they wouldn't be so polarized. 'Transphobe' should be a powerful word like 'homophobe', but a many of them they tend to use it to mean something more like 'someone who said something about trans people that I don't agree with'. Which, I mean, I don't blame them, but it's needlessly polarizing so I wish they wouldn't do it.

I've skirted this line pretty closely before, and stepped over it once or twice, so without going so far as to get sent to The Thread That Must Not Be Named, I will say that a lot of the things being said about trans people are genuinely transphobic. And that's all I'll say.

 

[mikegriffith1]

I'll tell you something else that Biden-Harris did that not only angered Republicans but angered a lot of Independents and Democrats too: forgiving nearly 200 billion dollars in student loans. This was manifestly unfair (1) to the millions of people who had already paid off their student loans, (2) to the people who worked part time while going to college to minimize their student debt, and (3) to the people who took out loans to go to technical trade schools, where they received a far more useful education than the education that many college students receive.

Liberal Democrats scream every time the price of gas goes up, and scream about oil company profits, but they say nothing about rising tuition rates and the huge profits made by universities. In many, many cases, you have "professors" earning six-digit salaries for teaching one or two classes per year.

 

[d4m10n]

he should have been prosecuted for his crimes and they should have been clearly laid out to the american people.

Read Jack Smith's unsealed court filing that says Trump 'resorted to crimes' after 2020 election

Donald Trump “resorted to crimes” in a failed bid to cling to power after losing the 2020 election, federal prosecutors said in a newly unsealed court filing that argues that the former president is not entitled to immunity from prosecution.

www.pbs.org

 

[arthwollipot]

I'll tell you something else that Biden-Harris did that not only angered Republicans but angered a lot of Independents and Democrats too: forgiving nearly 200 billion dollars in student loans. This was manifestly unfair (1) to the millions of people who had already paid off their student loans, (2) to the people who worked part time while going to college to minimize their student debt, and (3) to the people who took out loans to go to technical trade schools, where they received a far more useful education than the education that many college students receive.

Liberal Democrats scream every time the price of gas goes up, and scream about oil company profits, but they say nothing about rising tuition rates and the huge profits made by universities. In many, many cases, you have "professors" earning six-digit salaries for teaching one or two classes per year.

If you're forgiving student loan debt, which is a good thing, then you're always going to have some people who just paid it off.

You'd be equally annoyed if the cure to cancer was discovered on the day after you died. Actually that makes no sense but you know what I mean. It's inevitable that when you do a thing to help people, those who just finished helping themselves don't get to benefit from that. This does not mean that you should never do things to help people.

 

[dirtywick]

plus democrats do say a lot about rising tuition rates and huge profits made by universities. i'd even go so far as to assume they're the only ones that would ever even bring it up at all

 

[thaiboxerken]

Criticism can be both accurate and sharp, or accurate and mild. The "most mild of criticisms of [T]rump" would be criticisms of things he does which aren't far outside of the current norms, such as "Trump indulges in too much unhealthy fast food, which sets a bad example for a nation struggling with diabetes" or "Trump has lost money even when implementing a business model where 'The house always wins.'" To accuse someone of fascism is a sharp accusation by any historical measure, and I'm saying this as someone who has publicly accused Trump of fascism.

To get back to the OP for a moment, should Kamala Harris have engaged in sharper criticism? If so, what might that have looked like?

If I called Hitler a facist, is that a sharp criticism? Should history describe Hitler as just a leader that has authoritative tendencies?

 

[Emily's Cat]

plus democrats do say a lot about rising tuition rates and huge profits made by universities. i'd even go so far as to assume they're the only ones that would ever even bring it up at all

Little-face-big-head-guy Charlie Kirk brings it up quite a bit. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they're a republican. That's the impression I get from the few clips I've seen of them.

 

[ahhell]

I'll tell you something else that Biden-Harris did that not only angered Republicans but angered a lot of Independents and Democrats too: forgiving nearly 200 billion dollars in student loans. This was manifestly unfair (1) to the millions of people who had already paid off their student loans, (2) to the people who worked part time while going to college to minimize their student debt, and (3) to the people who took out loans to go to technical trade schools, where they received a far more useful education than the education that many college students receive.

Liberal Democrats scream every time the price of gas goes up, and scream about oil company profits, but they say nothing about rising tuition rates and the huge profits made by universities. In many, many cases, you have "professors" earning six-digit salaries for teaching one or two classes per year.

You forgot the majority of Americans that never got student loans, otherwise known as the working class.

 

[dirtywick]

working class people with student loan balances from 2 year college or tech school degrees benefitted the most from student loan forgiveness

 

[TragicMonkey]

I don't get a seeing eye dog, so why should blind people get them?! UNFAIR!

 

[ahhell]

working class people with student loan balances from 2 year college or tech school degrees benefitted the most from student loan forgiveness

Highly unlikely.

 

[dirtywick]

Highly unlikely.

why do you say that. they're balance is likely to around what the forgiveness was, and they're likely to make smaller payments due to the lower income that comes with being in the working class.

for example, a 2 year automotive program costs between $10k and $25k and a mechanic starts between $14-$20 an hour. be nice to cut him a break wouldn't it

or her

 

[d4m10n]

If I called Hitler a facist, is that a sharp criticism?

Not particularly, but then Hitler is the go-to historical example of the worst excesses of right-wing authoritarianism.

If you think Trump is truly comparable to Hitler (in terms of actual or potential harm done) then I'm not sure how to proceed.

 

[thaiboxerken]

So where does the fascist line end? Trump's call to deport all brown people isn't it? His aim to shut down all media that criticizes him? The demand to consolidate all government power under him? A fascist is what a fascist does, or wants to do.
Also, sharp criticism of MAGA was not a factor for why the Dems lost. This is because the Dems didn't even come close to the vitriol, attacks and insults from the right. If criticism was the reason Dems lost, the Republicans would've lost too. Both sides did it, and MAGA did it exponentially more.

 

[ahhell]

why do you say that. they're balance is likely to around what the forgiveness was, and they're likely to make smaller payments due to the lower income that comes with being in the working class.

for example, a 2 year automotive program costs between $10k and $25k and a mechanic starts between $14-$20 an hour. be nice to cut him a break wouldn't it

or her

Lots of questions there but, they aren't the people that actually owe most of the debt. The people that owe most typically have professional and graduate degrees so they've got plenty of potential earnings to pay it off. The guy that goes to an automative program that costs 25k will get a starter job at 14-15 will be able to pay off is 10k of debt, or more likely less in a few years.

I can't find good numbers on the student debt of folks with technical certs at a sub bacheor's level but the most debt is owed by the folks with the fanciest degrees and most folks don't really owe all that much, less than the cost of a care really. So, yes, it strikes me has highly unlikely that student debt relief actually helps working class folks all that much.

Who owes all that student debt? And who’d benefit if it were forgiven?

Adam Looney, David Wessel, and Kadija Yilla explain the severity of America’s student loan challenge, the rate of default, and candidates’ proposals for forgiving those debts.

www.brookings.edu

 

[dirtywick]

it's not about who owes the most debt, it's about the benefit of the forgiveness. your link supports that heavily. of two year degree grads, who go on to earn less than 4 year grads and are thus able to put less discretionary income towards the debt, 40% of them end up carrying debt and it's typically below the amount that student debt forgiveness would have covered. basically, eliminating a bill.

the guys with the bigger degrees and the large amount of debt, the forgiveness barely impacts it and like you said they have potential to earn much more and pay it back more easily.

i think you're looking at the wrong things here imo

 

[3point14]

You forgot the majority of Americans that never got student loans, otherwise known as the working class.

What could it posisbly benefit society to have it be educated. No good can come of it, I tells you.

 

[d4m10n]

So where does the fascist line end?

As with any political philosophy, there is no bright line.

Trump''s call to deport all brown people isn't it?

If you can produce a quote to back up "all brown people" then I'll stop dismissing this line of argument as hyperbole.

 

[thaiboxerken]

As with any political philosophy, there is no bright line.

If you can produce a quote to back up "all brown people" then I'll stop dismissing this line of argument as hyperbole.

If you think what The Party refers to as "immigrants" doesn't mean brown people, you aren't very bright.

 

[d4m10n]

If you think what The Party refers to as "immigrants" doesn't mean brown people, you aren't very bright.

If you don't interpret their public pronouncements the same way I do, you must be an utter moron.

Perhaps what the Democrats did wrong was failing to grossly exaggerate the same way you do.

 

[Tero]

Maybe we failed to explain or it was too complicated. The demagogue won.

Trump Voters Fail To Understand Basic Economics...or much of anything

"Yeah." "I did not understand those....words...they use."

esapolitics.blogspot.com

 

[arthwollipot]

If you don't interpret their public pronouncements the same way I do, you must be an utter moron.

The words are literally coming out of their mouths. They don't require interpretation.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

If you don't interpret their public pronouncements the same way I do, you must be an utter moron.

Perhaps what the Democrats did wrong was failing to grossly exaggerate the same way you do.

When Bogative, one of our resident MAGAs, talks about immigrants, he means 'brown people'. That much is for sure.

 

[d4m10n]

The words are literally coming out of their mouths.

Then my request for an actual quote should be considered fairly reasonable.

Here it is again: Can anyone provide a quote from Trump or close associates saying that all Hispanics need to go?

Perhaps what Democrats did wrong was failing to include this damning quote in their ad campaigns, given the shift among such voters.

 

[theprestige]

When Bogative, one of our resident MAGAs, talks about immigrants, he means 'brown people'. That much is for sure.

He means illegal immigrants. You're the one assuming that illegal immigrants are overwhelmingly one skin color. Your the one who thinks that skin color matters in these things.

 

[Donal]

Na, we ain't playing that game. Let's be adults and honest. "Legality" for certain folks is detemrined by the brown paper bag test. That's why the goons you carry water for use "immigrant" and "illegal immigrant" interchangably. That's why the attacks on birth right citizenship. That's why we don't send the paramilitary forces into the boards rooms and homes of executives who profit from undocumented workers.

 

[thaiboxerken]

He means illegal immigrants. You're the one assuming that illegal immigrants are overwhelmingly one skin color. Your the one who thinks that skin color matters in these things.

You know as well as anyone else that they mean brown people. Vranyo may work in Russia, but the USA isn't there yet. So stop lying.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Na, we ain't playing that game. Let's be adults and honest.

It's incredible that even after eight+ years of Dump, including a whole term with him as president (where a million Americans died, if I might add), people are still asking questions that pretty much amount to "huh, what do you mean water is wet?"

 

[Reformed Offlian]

I don't get a seeing eye dog, so why should blind people get them?! UNFAIR!

It's a strange complaint. If you believe in social progress, you should *want* kids today to have stuff you didn't have growing up.

Oh, wait...

 

[arthwollipot]

He means illegal immigrants. You're the one assuming that illegal immigrants are overwhelmingly one skin color. Your the one who thinks that skin color matters in these things.

How many illegal immigrants of other skin colours are there?

 

[Thermal]

 

[theprestige]

How many illegal immigrants of other skin colours are there?

Don't know, don't care. It's the illegality, not the ethnicity, that matters to me.

My hypothesis is that some people know that illegal immigration is indefensible, but don't want to concede a point to "the right", so they resort to vile non sequiturs as part of a Big Lie strategy.

It's not like Cosmic Yak has a principled, coherent argument for why illegal immigration should be tolerated if it's brown people.

 

[thaiboxerken]

How many illegal immigrants of other skin colours are there?

There are plenty of illegal, caucasian immigrants but you won't see them deport en masse.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Don't know, don't care. It's the illegality, not the ethnicity, that matters to me.

My hypothesis is that some people know that illegal immigration is indefensible, but don't want to concede a point to "the right", so they resort to vile non sequiturs as part of a Big Lie strategy.

It's not like Cosmic Yak has a principled, coherent argument for why illegal immigration should be tolerated if it's brown people.

I don't believe you at all. I believe that ethnicity matters a lot to you. People who support The Party are supporting White Supremacy, after all.

 

[d4m10n]

How many illegal immigrants of other skin colours are there?

I think a better question would be how many "brown people" cannot be legally deported, given the claim was Trump intends to deport us all.

"Legality" for certain folks is detemrined by the brown paper bag test.

Big news if true and the Dems certainly should have mentioned it in their campaign messaging.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Everyone knows they are talking about brown people, including you. This vranyo strategy of yours isn't working, none of us are fooled by it.

 

[bruto]

Of course there's no coherent, identifiable bias against any specific ethic group that can't be sidestepped. A big campaign rally in which the hired comedian called Puerto Rico a floating pile of garbage and disparaged their apparent fertility with disgusting double-entendres, which seemed in passing like confusing Puerto Ricans with immigrants, dismissed as a joke, those offended humorless libs, that sort of thing, so nothing to see here, nothing to be worried about. It's not as if anything like profiling might take place, and freedom is an omelet with one T, the real American kind. Just remember to have your papers handy. Whoa! Don't reach for them, though! Maybe get them embroidered and sew them to your jacket.

 

[Pixel42]

Trump's speech complaining about immigrants from ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ countries, and bemoaning the lack of immigrants from countries like Norway, made it abundantly clear who he is talking about.