Were Israelis warned to stay away from WTC prior to 9/11?

[Skeptic]

the only problem with that link is that the US is always going to be fed stories about [potential] terrorist attacks. if you don't know exactly how, when and where, you can't really do much to prevent it. America is a big place with millions of people and tens of thousands of possible targets. You can't lock the whole place down, without destroying the economy.

For once I agree 100% with AUP. It's not strictly true that "if you don't know exactly how, when and where, you can't really do much to prevent it", but pretty close.

 

[Scared Chicken]

Or perhaps simply a troll--most likely in my opinion. [/B]

You know, someone pointed me to this forum to discuss the PNAC worries I had. So I posted here, hoping to find a few reasonable minds to discuss this.

So far, almost no one has posted any usefull replies to this thread. Instead, Renata steps in, picks one line of of that post, and pretends she is interested. I bite, though I should have known better. Then she starts this thread, laying words in my mounth I never said. Twising my words, accusing me of lying and antisemitism, while she still hasnt backed her claims that started this in the firtst place- and she wont, because not only did I not say that, I DO NOT EVEN BELIEVE IN, NOT BY A LONG SHOT .crap, its contrary to the point I was trying to make in the first place.

. And now, here I am, labeled as revisionist, holocaust denier, troll... great I guess I chose the wrong forum.

Have nice life all, Im sure you wont miss me, but the feeling is mutual.

 

[Cleopatra]

Scared Chicken if you have edited your posts, you have a problem, I am afraid.

In my opinion everybody has the right to think what ever he/she wants.

Personally, what makes me angry, are the insinuations.

If you think that Jews knew about this attack in advance and they didn't let everybody know, fine! Say it! But you must expect some reactions to this for reasons explained above.

Editing a post and erasing part of it after posting is not a good idea, I am sure you agree on that.It's not fair.

If you have edited your posts, if you have asked Renata to start a thread and if you changed your mind, just say it and ask an apology from Renata.

If you decide to do this, I will stand by your side.

Anonimity must make us behave with a certain dignity and nobility.

Anonimity is a luxury and not a trick to upset or manipulate others.

Thanks

 

[Scared Chicken]

Scared Chicken if you have edited your posts, you have a problem, I am afraid.

I have deleted posts, and deleted "off topic" remarks on my NPAC post here:
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16256

If you want the original post, I'll copy paste it here below.
I didnt change it to cover my ass, I changed it because I felt my point was being ignored and all attention drawn to this endless discussion that you are witnessing here. I found the central idea in my original post important enough to try to stop that from happening.

If you think that Jews knew about this attack in advance and they didn't let everybody know, fine! Say it!

If thats what I thought, I wouldnt know why I would not say it. The thing is, thats not what I think, nor what I said, but it is what Renata thinks she read between the lines. Somehow, her reading skills leave something to be desired. And calling me a liar and a antisemite over it is not appreciated.

you have edited your posts, if you have asked Renata to start a thread and if you changed your mind, just say it and ask an apology from Renata.

I surely didnt not motivate Renata to start/continue this discussion.. I wanted to avoid it, because I knew what I had witnesses was bound to be either misinterpreted or not believed. I have discussed this OVER and OVER for years, with friends, on forums. Because I do not have the evidence it happened, I should have been wiser, and not bring it up. (btw, I am talking about a friend of mine, telling me once, and denying it afterwards, that he got a warning. No more, no less.)
but, since I was being falsely accused of blaming the Jews for 9/11, and it was polluting a topic i happend to care about, I asked her not to discuss it on the PNAC thread, but in a new one instead. I gave her permission to post the PM I sent her, to show I was not claiming an Isreali 9/11 conspiracy theory as Renata said or insinuated. Thats a bit different from asking to start a tread on it (heck, why wouldnt I have started it myself then ?)

Either way, thanks for being the first one who appears willing to listen.

Below is the post as I originally put it here please note the absense of the words Jews, Israel, Mossad,..):
-----------------------------------
I recently stumbled across this very scary report: “Rebuilding America’s Defences". It's from an organization called "Project for the New American Century":

"Established in the spring of 1997, the Project for the New American Century is a non-profit, educational organization whose goal is to promote American global leadership."

This sounds like an obscure, extreme right, imperialistic group.. and it looks a lot like it. The entire report is about "Pax Americana" and "American global leadership". It really looks like a roadmap to world domination, and I am hardly exaggerating. However, as I will show a bit further, this organization is anything BUT obscure. But first a few quotes:

"America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievement of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favourable to American principles and interests? "

"[What we require is] a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States’ global responsibilities."

"ESTABLISH FOUR CORE MISSIONS for U.S. military forces:
<..>
• fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theater wars;"

"While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force present in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

They plain call the regime of Hussein an excuse to install a large military presence in the area!

As if this is not worrying enough, the next quote really gave me shivers:

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor." (page 63)

This was written in the year 2000. One year before the "new Pearl Harbor" took place on 9-11. How convenient, they literally say they would need such an event as a catalyst to accelerate their military build up, and then suddenly, one year later, this happens... the massively increased military funding the report is calling for, the military build-up, and now the rest of the plan also starts happening.

And now the really scary part. This is not an obscure small time organization. This organization is formed around people like Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Jeb Bush,... Check it out yourself: http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

Think about it, in 1997 some very wealthy, powerful and very influential, power hungry war hawks unite in an organisation whose goal is to promote "American global leadership".

October 2000
Democratic governor Carnahan dies in an inexplicable plane accident when running a close race for the Senate against Ashcroft... 3 weeks before the elections.

November 2000
Bush was elected in a campaign that (to say the least) was dubious. 6 months later, "irregularities" where noted in reports, but no one cares anymore.

January 2001
Bush wants to increase defence budget by more than $20 billion to protect America "from the real threats of the 21st century". Just like outlined in the report linked below. He faces stiff opposition, few people understand why this is necessary in the post Cold War time.

September 2001
9-11. The "new pearl harbour" happens. The catalyst needed to change US public opinion, and the excuse needed to massively increase defence budgets, and start wars left and right. Just like announced/hoped for in the report.

October 2002
Another bizarre plane crash of a Democratic candidate. Senator, Paul Wellstone, running a close race for the Senate and seriously threatening the republican majority in the senate, dies 2 weeks before election day in another inexplicable plane crash..

If you want to believe this is all coincidental, feel free to. But I urge the American citizens to remain alert, and critical towards their leaders, because this is very, very troublesome. Many Americans compare Sadam with Hitler, and say a pre-emptive attack is required to prevent worse things from happening... but the report linked below shows many more parallels with Hitler’s Third Reich than anything else. Just replace "Aryan" with "Americans" and "Jews" with "Muslim", and there you have your Third Reich. Americans, please, remain alert, I urge you. As a European, I feel no hate towards your country or your people whatsoever, on the contrary, but your current leaders scare me ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. Please don't make the same mistake the German citizens made 70 years ago

Fight for your constitutional rights, have the courage to question your political leaders, and have the courage to investigate events that are more than just a little suspicious.
This is not about showing solidarity with your troops fighting in Iraq, this is not about being disrespectful about the victims of 9-11. Ask those questions, I beg you. Open your eyes, and don’t be fooled or scared by daily warnings of possible terrorist attacks. The biggest terrorist ever may very well be your own president, or more likely, the people behind him.

“Ich habe nicht gewußt.’
Dixit 70 million Germans in 1945

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
EDIT: I changed the color of the text I removed from the NPAC post for your convenience

 

[rikzilla]

Great... now im not only an antisemite, but a holocaust denier and a revisionist as well. Thats be best insult I have heard in years, especially having lost a good part of my familiy in the holocaust. Thanks, much appreciated.

Do you people actually read what I said ? or just blindly assumed Renata's twist of my words and false accusations to be correct ?

poseur...this is a skeptic site...you're only fooling yourself.

 

[Scared Chicken]

It would be refreshing to some more people being skeptical about what is going on in the world.. Where are all these sceptics when Bush announces this is a war against terrorism ? The Bin Laden connection ? The imminent danger of Sadam's WOMD ?etc, etc,... This seems more like a 'selective skeptic' site.

 

[DrBenway]

It would be refreshing to some more people being skeptical about what is going on in the world.

Translation: "I enjoy indulging in wild speculation, based upon the thinnest evidence, and wish others would do the same."

Come back when you have evidence for your claim (re: Jews being warned of WTC attack) that can be corroborated by independent sources.

 

[rikzilla]

It would be refreshing to some more people being skeptical about what is going on in the world.. Where are all these sceptics when Bush announces this is a war against terrorism ? The Bin Laden connection ? The imminent danger of Sadam's WOMD ?etc, etc,... This seems more like a 'selective skeptic' site.

You are obviously new here. Those people you are talking about are well represented here and listened to. They make logical arguments that have merit. They are not conspiracy theorists such as yourself.

Wayne Grabert....Sundog....Victor...and many others are skeptical of the government. Yet even they tend not to put forth conspiracy theories. By ignoring the very basics of logic such as Occam, you leave yourself open to logical and rational attacks. Conspiracy theories are generally extraordinary claims such as the 4,000 Jew story...extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, you OTOH don't even have any ordinary evidence.
Stop wasting your time, and ours.

-zilla

 

[Scared Chicken]

By ignoring the very basics of logic such as Occam, you leave yourself open to logical and rational attacks.

Well, I dont think Occam's razor aplies, since I am not trying to explain something, I was trying to raise awareness.

Conspiracy theories are generally extraordinary claims such as the 4,000 Jew story...extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, you OTOH don't even have any ordinary evidence.

here is my evidence, its pretty bullet proof:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Please note I did not launch the 4000 Jew story. Renata tricked me in that. My conspiracy story can be read a few posts up.

Stop wasting your time, and ours.

There is an unsubscribe link. Feel free to click it if you're not interested. I much prefer that over being called an "anti-semitic historical revisionist" based on words I never said.

 

[Scared Chicken]

Come back when you have evidence for your claim (re: Jews being warned of WTC attack) that can be corroborated by independent sources.

This is a nice illustration of how urban legends are born. The whole point of this thread is that I never said this "Jews warned by Mossad" thing that Renata keeps in reading in her imagination.

My original post wasnt a claim either.. if you havent read it, go read it here:http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16256

If it contains just one statement that is not factual correct or requires further evidence, be my guess to point it out, I'll gladly listen or answer.

 

[Cleopatra]

Introduction

There is only one reason that made me spend time to read the threads over and over before replying...

I don't want anybody to claim that who ever tries to criticize Israel or Jews is automatically accused of anti-semitism.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scared Chicken

Renata, provided us with the parts of your posts that you have removed.

Have you written those things, yes or no?

I think you have because otherwise you'd come out and deny it by the first moment! Even if you want to deny it, I am afraid that you can't because your comments are still there, quoted by other posters.

So, you owe Renata an apology for false accusations.

Let's get to the essence now.

I read your post in the other thread. I am not sure that you are aware of the importance of your accusations.

Accusing a democratic government for plots and conspiracies, is apart from serious, very offensive to the people of the country you volunteered to illuminate.

Second. You claimed that a Jewish relative of yours received a certain call that advised him not to go to WTC.

As you can understand, we don't know the name of this relative and he doesn't honour us with his presence in this forum, all we know is that he is someone related to you. So the responsibility to prove this statement becomes yours!

Got it?

As you said to the other thread, all you wanted was to warn the american people and make them think about certain things.

This is a serious job and must be done with responsibility.

I am sorry but you don't have a case.

PS I will not stop until you proove your claims or take them back.

 

[rikzilla]

The PDF file is large and I have no interest in reading the whole thing. Please highlight for me the part that provides evidence that there was a 9/11 conspiracy of any kind.

Remember...your extraordinary claim...(that an evil American cabal known as PNAC is planning global domination, and is somehow behind 9/11)...requires extraordinary evidence. A website does #1. not meet the level of extraordinary. It is evidence that can be checked and I thank you for bringing it up for discussion. However, even if it is a real webpage, for a real thinktank, that really wishes for American global domination, still does not rise to the level of evidence. #2. Extraordinary evidence would mean various sources, and at least one piece of "smoking gun" evidence.

PNAC is however a good target for discussion. I would suggest that you research them and post what you find for others to comment on. By coming here and making bombastic claims about them you are turning people off.

-zilla

-zilla

 

[DrBenway]

This is a nice illustration of how urban legends are born. The whole point of this thread is that I never said this "Jews warned by Mossad" thing that Renata keeps in reading in her imagination.

In the thread you originally started, you said:

"...I am thoroughly convinced intelligence agencies (American and Isreali) had knowledge of an attack on the WTC. People have been warned, including an Isreali relative of mine, that was warned two days prior to the attack to stay home on 9-11. He worked at the WTC."

You a friend of Chessmanskeptic?

 

[Wayne Grabert]

An exercise in critical thinking

Rather than indulging emotions or getting into namecalling, let's make a dispassionate consideration of whether or not Israel knew in advance what Mohammad Atta and company were up to.

A couple months ago I read an article that discussed a four-part series on Fox News. (Fox News is owned by Rupert Murdoch who is a strong supporter of Israel.) I don't recall the details of that story, but basically it said that it appeared that Israeli agents were active in Florida in the weeks before 9/11 and appeared to be shadowing some of the 9/11 terrorists, Atta in particular. (Some Israelis apparently involved in intelligence gathering rented an apartment across the street or down the block from Atta.)

Does that imply that Israel knew what Atta was up to and withheld that information? It doesn't make sense to me that it would. Why would Israelis shadow them if they already knew what they were up to? If the Fox story is accurate, then it seems more likely that Israel suspected that Atta might be up to no good (on what basis I don't know, but he was doing a lot of travelling to Europe and elsewhere to meet with terrorists) and were trying to find out what that was. Besides, we simply don't know what Mossad knew and what they may have shared with the FBI whose anti-terrorist division was not doing the best job of following up on leads from its own agents. I remember that the US had been warned by another government that Atta had met with terrorists in Indonesia (I think it was Indonesia), and yet he was living undisturbed in Florida!

Another explanation would be that the Israelis knew what Atta was up to, but were shadowing him to give support. Well, this is even harder to believe. Given the hatred of Israel by al Qaida, there is no way that they would knowingly collude with Israeli agents. The agents would have to somehow fool the terrorists into thinking they were fellow Arabs and would have to infiltrate al Qaida, etc., all very farfetched. Besides, various intelligence agencies from various countries have uncovered much of the money trail that shows that it was Arabs in Europe and New Jersey who were supplying Atta with support, not Israelis. We also have bin Laden's confession on that videotape that he and al Qaida were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. (You recall that videotape that was recorded in someone's apartment in Afghanistan in which bin Laden recounted how he didn't expect the WTC to collapse completely, how they heard the story on the radio, etc.?)

In conclusion, it is implausible to believe that Israel knew in advance what the 9/11 terrorists were planning, and it is baseless and absurd to believe that Israel was involved in the planning and execution of the attacks.

I'll criticize Israeli policies I disagree with and I encourage you to do the same, but stay realistic and fair.

 

[Baggle]

Scared Chicken, I think the JREF may be a little too advaced for your 5 language speaking self. Even if much of your family was lost in the holocaust and your Israeli relative, I mean friend, err, what was it?, was warned to stay away from the WTC on 9/11 by somebody that was NOT Mossad(as you're implying). Are you a master chess player, too? Do you attend a medical school? Ever seen the website for CyberShaman? No matter. JREF is too advanced for you. I'd recommend http://www.CoastToCoastAM.com for your brain power level. Not sure if there are forums there, but if there are, those people will eat this stuff up. They'll love you there. I highly recommend it for you.

-Baggle

 

[renata]

Wow, this thread is jumping!

First of all, thank you to all those who supported me in this thread. I think you addressed all the points really well, so there is not too much left for me. However, as most of the vitriol seems to be directed at me (ignore list! my first time on someone's ignore list!) I will address some points here.


I am amazed that people from the right, left and middle posted on this thread. And they all agree on this topic. I think this is a first in Politics forum: Skeptic and AUP, Wayne and Rikzilla, all agreeing. Could the end of the world be near?

Scared Chicken- you can insult me, and say things exist in my imagination. However, the posts you were unable to delete exist, as do the PMs. By the way, I received the second PM to me. I will not post it on this thread, and once again will not discuss its contents it here. I will also not reply, for obvious reasons.

All the quotes below are by the Chicken

The whole point of this thread is that I never said this "Jews warned by Mossad" thing that Renata keeps in reading in her imagination.

and

The thing is, thats not what I think, nor what I said, but it is what Renata thinks she read between the lines. Somehow, her reading skills leave something to be desired.

and

Keep twisting and turning... maybe someone will believe you.

People on this board can read. They have read your posts, and my posts. They know what you said. Claiming it is in my imagination, claiming I am twisting your words makes you look ridiculous.

Please note I did not launch the 4000 Jew story. Renata tricked me in that. My conspiracy story can be read a few posts up.

LOL! I did not trick you into that! I was not even posting on your thread until you started making claims that Mossad warned some Israelis. I am afraid you tricked yourself into that. To be honest, you did not say 4,000 Jews. You said Mossad warned some.

It would be refreshing to some more people being skeptical about what is going on in the world.. Where are all these sceptics when Bush announces this is a war against terrorism ? The Bin Laden connection ? The imminent danger of Sadam's WOMD ?etc, etc,... This seems more like a 'selective skeptic' site.

This is not a thread about that. This is a thread about one claim you made. I do not choose to engage you on the other issues. However, they way you carry on about this Mossad - makign conspiracy statements about your "relatives", deleting posts, insulting posters, twisting the facts, makes me think it is pointless to address you in any other issues. There is also no point in reposting the original post from your thread here. People can go to it if they wish you debate you there. I never claimed your allegations were in your first post, they were in subsequent posts in that thread..posts deleted by you after I called you on your claims.

And don't tell me you deleted them because you did not want to discuss the topic. You deleted them because you got quite obviously caught in a lie. If you did not want to discuss the topic, you would not have made the many, many posts to this thread.
You also keep promising to leave in a huff, yet you keep answering. If that is not troll behaviour, I do not know what is


You also said

Keep acting like that, and maybe you will be right one day. I will start hating your people.

By your people you mean Jews, of course. And then, later on, you say

Great... now im not only an antisemite, but a holocaust denier and a revisionist as well. Thats be best insult I have heard in years, especially having lost a good part of my familiy in the holocaust.

I don't even think this ditty needs commenting on.

Are you trying to prove:
1) I believe the isreali's staged 9/11,
2) I have said the mossad warned some Jews, hence they knew, hence I was probably insinuating 9/11 was an Isreali attack
3) By claiming a former friend of mine had receieved a warning from I dont know who, I insinuated that must have been by the Mossad, and therefore 9/11 was a Mossad attack
4) something else ?

I never said I thought you believe Israel staged or planned 9/11. However, you did say Mossad knew of the attack prior to it, and warned some Jews. You even gave creative reasons as to why those Jews (like your "relative", who morphed into a "friend" later in the thread) would take the warning seriously enough not to go to work, but would tell no others- not their friends, relatives, FBI, co-workers, lovers- nobody else. You even reported it to 2 newsagencies! If you did not think this was an important issue you would not have reported it to newsagencies.

So the point of my thread is just as it states in the topic "Were Israelis warned to stay away from WTC prior to 9/11?". You say they were. I say they were not. Hence the disagreement.



By the way, Scared Chicken- which 5 languages do you speak? I am very curious to know.

 

[headscratcher4]

Renata -- as always, my heroine! Keep up the good fight!

 

[Scared Chicken]

Originally posted by renata LOL! I did not trick you into that! I was not even posting on your thread until you started making claims that Mossad warned some Israelis. .

I most definately did not. 20+ posts on this thread, and still no quote to prove this. I....Did..... not....

And don't tell me you deleted them because you did not want to discuss the topic. You deleted them because you got quite obviously caught in a lie. If you did not want to discuss the topic, you would not have made the many, many posts to this thread.

Strange.. i somehow do not like being called a liar and a antisemite when all I did was insinuate the US governement might be playing a extremely dirty game (a claim to wich you prefer not to reply).

You also keep promising to leave in a huff, yet you keep answering. If that is not troll behaviour, I do not know what is

Im deeply sorried for keeping refuting the allegations you write here.

and warned some Jews. You even gave creative reasons as to why those Jews (like your "relative", who morphed into a "friend" later in the thread) would take the warning seriously enough not to go to work, but would tell no others- not their friends, relatives, FBI, co-workers, lovers- nobody else. You even reported it to 2 newsagencies! If you did not think this was an important issue you would not have reported it to newsagencies.

Dont you think *anyone* having prior knowledge on this is newsworthy ? be it Jews, Americans or Japanse ?

So the point of my thread is just as it states in the topic "Were Israelis warned to stay away from WTC prior to 9/11?". You say they were. I say they were not. Hence the disagreement.

I only said my friend (AND relative) was informed somehow.

By the way, Scared Chicken- which 5 languages do you speak? I am very curious to know.

Dutch, french, german, spanish, and some english. Happy now ?

 

[Scared Chicken]

Originally posted by Baggle
Scared Chicken, I think the JREF may be a little too advaced for your 5 language speaking self. Even if much of your family was lost in the holocaust and your Israeli relative, I mean friend, err, what was it?, was warned to stay away from the WTC on 9/11 by somebody that was NOT Mossad(as you're implying)

I wasnt implying that.. just pointing out the possibility. I've you had read my posts, you'd know I said I DONT KNOW. More than once or twice.

Are you a master chess player, too? Do you attend a medical school?

No, and no.

Ever seen the website for CyberShaman? No matter. JREF is too advanced for you. I'd recommend http://www.CoastToCoastAM.com for your brain power level.

thanks, great link.

 

[Scared Chicken]

The PDF file is large and I have no interest in reading the whole thing. Please highlight for me the part that provides evidence that there was a 9/11 conspiracy of any kind.

You wish it was that easy/obvious..
I dont have any evidence, nor claimed I had.

Remember...your extraordinary claim...(that an evil American cabal known as PNAC is planning global domination, and is somehow behind 9/11)

I claim the first statement, I keep my mind open the second one might be true. I have "proof" for the first claim, I have none whatsoever for the second.

. A website does #1. not meet the level of extraordinary. It is evidence that can be checked and I thank you for bringing it up for discussion. However, even if it is a real webpage, for a real thinktank, that really wishes for American global domination, still does not rise to the level of evidence. #2.

A claim I never made. I leave it up to your appreciation to see or ignore the relation. The website is real though.

 

[renata]

Three posts, all saying Scared Chicken never stated

I am thoroughly convinced intelligence agencies (American and Isreali) had knowledge of an attack on the WTC. People have been warned, including an Isreali relative of mine, that was warned two days prior to the attack to stay home on 9-11. He worked at the WTC.

Either
1. I am lying, and this is not your quote
2. You said Mossad warned some Israelis prior to 9/11.

Admit it, say you were wrong, and get over it.

Dutch, french, german, spanish, and some english. Happy now ?

I am pleased. Unfortunately, you only overlap with one of my languages, so I can not test it. Your track record isn't that great.




Headscratcher- Thanks! As one of your biggest fans, I am quite flattered . However, I am getting bored with this guy. He only has one trick- claiming he never said what he clearly did. All I have to do now is keep cutting and pasting that quote. I predict he will either abandon this thread, or once claim he did not say Mossad warned some Israelis. "Show me where I said it! Show me!". Maybe a little more of "Renata tricked me! She started it! Why won't anyone believe me?". I almost sympathize with him- it is rough trying to erase previous statements and having that bite you in the tail.

 

[Cleopatra]

Renata, as I mentioned before it's not that simple

He is not going to get away with it just because he is stupid, unless he declares that he is stupid.

He is not. He did this on purpose but he underestimated the fact that he was addressing well-informed people.

Scared Chicken, I am sick of anti-semetic urban legends that pop-up ether as a joke or as a rumour and then none apologizes for them.

In another forum I read about another "trust worthy source" according to which Israelis have weapons that kill only Arabs.

I am sick of guys like you.I wish you had the courage to defend what you believe instead of spreading your dirt everywhere.

Take it back and apologize for you behaviour.

 

[Scared Chicken]

Either
1. I am lying, and this is not your quote
2. You said Mossad warned some Israelis prior to 9/11.

3. You do not read, but interprete.
My statements:
1) I claimed to be convinced intellegence agencies had prior knowledge (as: indications). I am not exactly alone.. just a quick Google gave me this: http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/18/intelligence.hearings/index.html
2) I said my friend had been warned. Thats what he told me. He did not tell me by who, I do not know by whom nor have I ever claimed I did.

But you read 1 and 2 and presume I said 3. Just because he indeed is Jew, you think it could only have been the Mossad that warned him but I did not say that, nor did I want to imply that. And then you presume 4, that I am convinced the Mossad only warned Jews (where the HELL did you get that), and 5 that I am convinced this shows 9/11 was a Mossad operation. And while you are all at it, 6,7,8,9 that I am an antisemite, hollocaust denier, and God knows what else.

Admit it, say you were wrong, and get over it.

You wish.. However, I will say this: to those people, who followed your false reasoning that 1+2 means 3,4,5,6,7,8.. I appologize for giving the false impression of accusing Jews or Isreal of anything. I did not accuse them, nor intended to.

I am pleased. Unfortunately, you only overlap with one of my languages, so I can not test it. Your track record isn't that great.

As if I care. Kus mijn reet.

However, I am getting bored with this guy. He only has one trick- claiming he never said what he clearly did. All I have to do now is keep cutting and pasting that quote. I predict he will either abandon this thread, or once claim he did not say Mossad warned some Israelis.

Once ? I have claimed that maybe a dozen times.. I have never claimed the opposite, which is the whole point. Please tell me, if indeed I would think what you are trying to put in my mouth for countless posts now, why on earth would I fight it ? Why wouldnt I just say I think Isreal staged 9/11 ? But please, keep pasting the same quote, be my guest.

 

[Scared Chicken]

Scared Chicken, I am sick of anti-semetic urban legends that pop-up ether as a joke or as a rumour and then none apologizes for them.

And I am sick of being accused of things I did not say, did not think, did not mean to imply. The urban legend here is not that Isreal planned 9/11 and warned only Jews.. The urban legend is that I would have thought or said any of that. And no one is apologizing to me either.

Take it back and apologize for you behaviour. [/B]

After being called a hollocaust denier, revisionist and antisemite over things I never said, implied nor thought, you really expect me to apologize for my behaviour?

 

[renata]

3. You do not read, but interprete.
My statements:
1) I claimed to be convinced intellegence agencies had prior knowledge (as: indications). I am not exactly alone.. just a quick Google gave me this: http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/18/intelligence.hearings/index.html

Oh, Come on! Do you really expect anyone to believe that you meant FBI may have missed some warnings? I will believe you, as soon as I get back from my lobotomy.
1. You deleted all of the posts in the other thread that expounded on your theory.
2. The post that was saved, because another person quoted, in combination with the PM you sent, clearly indicated you thought Mossad warned some Israelis.

Seeing you twisting and turning like a pinata is starting to lose its appeal.

Look, SC, If I posted a thread saying what I said, but provided no quotes, I would be decimated. It is not like JREF board is my fan club. There are plenty of people who would have called me on it- this is a skeptic's board and people can be brutal. I have had some scuffles myself.

However, people read what YOU wrote. I am not an insane woman who is making things up. Read other people's posts. The fact that you deleted your posts on the other thread, coupled with what was salvaged proves my point.

The fact is- you weren't getting quite the response you wanted, you posted this theory, you were called on it, got scared, deleted posts and are busily denying what is obvious to everyone. Just stop it, you are making a fool of yourself.

As if I care. Kus mijn reet.

MIJ zou , wanneer niet voor naar de pukkel. Zit welk op welke manier u spreken voor te vrouw?

 

[ssibal]

Wayne, is this the story you are referring to?
http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/ap-wp.html
It seems that the story was bogus. Gotta hand it to Fox for being somewhat consistent.

 

[rikzilla]

And I am sick of being accused of things I did not say, did not think, did not mean to imply. The urban legend here is not that Isreal planned 9/11 and warned only Jews.. The urban legend is that I would have thought or said any of that. And no one is apologizing to me either.

Ok...then please restate what you believe to have happened. Consider yourself given a second chance...I am trying to understand what this is all about. Throw me a bone.

After being called a hollocaust denier, revisionist and antisemite over things I never said, implied nor thought, you really expect me to apologize for my behaviour?

I did not call you a Holocaust Denier....I said that your tactic of saying something alluding to a Jewish conspiracy...and then backtracking and attempting to say you never said it that way is a debate tactic that the historical revisionists and Holocaust Deniers have used again and again. I merely pointed out the similarities.

Since you seem to be using their tactics...it would not be too far fetched of an idea that you are merely a thinly disguised anti-semite attempting to pass yourself off as a reasonable, rational poster. As I said before....restate your claim and I will attempt to understand it anew.

-zilla

 

[Scared Chicken]

Do you really expect anyone to believe that you meant FBI may have missed some warnings?

I expect people to read what I wrote: I dont know who warned him. And you twist this into this lie:

Scared Chicken claimed Israelis were warned not to go to WTC prior to 9/11. As evidence, he said he spoke to an Israeli relative who worked at WTC, and who told him he was warned by Mossad not to go

and even worse:

I think suggesting that Israelis knew of 9/11 and only warned Jews is a horrible accusation

You can copy paste until your control key breaks down but I never said that, never implied, and most of all, never even thought it. This is a flat out lie, and the resulting antisemtic insults will not be forgiven quickly.

1. You deleted all of the posts in the other thread that expounded on your theory.

I think all the relevant parts have been reconstructed... and guess what.. still no clues that I claimed " Israelis knew of 9/11
and only warned Jews ".

2. The post that was saved, because another person quoted, in combination with the PM you sent, clearly indicated you thought Mossad warned some Israelis.

Go ahead, read my mind. I've you're as good as reading posts it should be interesting.

Look, SC, If I posted a thread saying what I said, but provided no quotes, I would be decimated.

You did a very good job of collecting quotes and mixing them subtle with insinuations and lies. Congratulations. I'm sure the fact I deleted my posts (though I reposted the original one in this thread) left plenty of room for people to assume I did for the reasons you are so keen to point out. Truth is different however, Im not going to keep repeating why I did it. If you dont want to believe that, thats up to you. You made up your mind, you're dead wrong, but so be it. Think of me as hollocaust denier from now on. I will think of you as a manipulator and insulter who is not interesting in finding out the truth, but only in painting her own truths.

The fact is- you weren't getting quite the response you wanted

Exactly. instead of focusing on the PNAC report, I got responses on a Jewish 9/11 conspiracy I didnt mean to suggest, I didnt believe in, and didnt want to debate. Hence, I changed my post.

MIJ zou , wanneer niet voor naar de pukkel. Zit welk op welke manier u spreken voor te vrouw?

Impressive babelfishing. "Me would, when not for towards the "pukkel". Sit which on which way u talk for too woman?"
I dont know the english word for "pukkel".

 

[renata]

I expect people to read what I wrote: I dont know who warned him. And you twist this into this lie:
and even worse:

You can copy paste until your control key breaks down but I never said that, never implied, and most of all, never even thought it. This is a flat out lie, and the resulting antisemtic insults will not be forgiven quickly.

Your posts speak for themselves. You mentioned Mossad, you said some were warned, you said Israeli intelligence agencies knew about the attack, you reported it to newsagencies.

I think all the relevant parts have been reconstructed... and guess what.. still no clues that I claimed " Israelis knew of 9/11
and only warned Jews ".

I do not think relevant parts have been misconstrued. I am afraid the benefit of the doubt is not with you on this, as you are the one who deleted the posts.

I'm sure the fact I deleted my posts (though I reposted the original one in this thread) left plenty of room for people to assume I did for the reasons you are so keen to point out.

Your original post had nothing to do with the topic. I never said those allegations were in that post.

Think of me as hollocaust denier from now on.

I never accused you of that. Now who is insulting and making up things?

I will think of you as a manipulator and insulter who is not interesting in finding out the truth, but only in painting her own truths.

Coming from you, that is high praise indeed.

Exactly. instead of focusing on the PNAC report, I got responses on a Jewish 9/11 conspiracy I didnt mean to suggest, I didnt believe in, and didnt want to debate. Hence, I changed my post.

You did suggest it, you did say it. If you wanted to avoid that topic, you should have stopped posting to this thread, and it would have died long ago. Instead, I suspect people post here not only because of my original post, but because of impressive ways you try to lie your way out of what you got caught posting.

Impressive babelfishing.

It was not babelfish, but a good try!

 

[Scared Chicken]

Ok...then please restate what you believe to have happened. Consider yourself given a second chance...I am trying to understand what this is all about. Throw me a bone.

Why do you want me to copy paste what I've been saying all this time ? Scroll up and read my posts. My main point was the PNAC thing. Still up for you to read here:http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16256
I reposted the unmodified version in this thread, up a few posts. You may notice the complete absense of the words Mossad, Jews or Israel.

As for what happened on 9/11 I have no f*cking idea. But okay, lets rephrase what I said (when being pressed on this topic):
1) A Jewish friend of mine, whom I called since I was worried after 9/11, told me shortly after the event he stayed home that day, after receiving a warning. He would not restate that afterwards, instead saying it was a coincidence. true untrue ? I dont know. Did he imagine it ? Did I ? I dont know. If true, who warned him ? No fricking idea.

2) When pressed by Renata on how this would be impossible, and immediately implying I meant Mossad warned him, as well as 4.000 other Jews, but not the US authorities, I speculated in a PM to her on another possibility to try to show her that by no means, I was trying to insinuate Isreali involvement in 9/11 (which, btw, I explicitely stated). this was and still is my hypothesis:

Intelligence agencies had recveived warnings, which is only logical I think given the scale of this thing -however, receiving warnings is something different from being able to fully qualify and interprete them to prevent what happened. But I could imagine someone working for Mossad or CIA or even the KGB if you like, taking these claims serious enough as to warn relatives or friends working in the WTC. I know I would, if I had even vague indications this might happen, but they were not substantial enough to shut down all airtraffic and evacuate the WTC or not substantial enough to be taken serious by my superiors.. I know I'd ask my wife to stay home that day if she worked in the WTC. Wouldnt you ? But would you call the press and say:"hello, the WTC is about to be bombed, please evacuate at once ?" Not likely.
So this is purely a speculative attempt to explain what I witnessed. Im open to other explications. And if you dont believe my first claim, I wont blame you, and I wont press it. I wouldnt believe it, and I have no proof. So, thats why I prefered to keep the thread on topic (PNAC), and stop this debate. However Renata started twisting my words, and making it sound like I claimed 9/11 was Mossad thing.. I hope you can understand I continue to refute that.

I did not call you a Holocaust Denier....I said that your tactic of saying something alluding to a Jewish conspiracy...

So I am to believe this statement was not directed at me:" So now Holocaust deniers have a new hobby....conspiracy theories about the Mossad and 9/11". yeah right. If nothing else, at the very least you called me a creep and applauded Renata's continueing manipulations and outright lies. And you apparently did so, without even bothering to read closely what I said, and what I did not say.

 

[Scared Chicken]

You did suggest it, you did say it

Keep it coming, why dont you copy paste that quote of mine just once more ? I did NOT say it, you interpreted it that way, and then reformulated what you thought I wanted to say, as if I actually said it. So dont tell me I either said it, or believed it. If I did, why did I write this in my very first PM to you on this topic:

But if just for a second you assume I am telling the truth, Im not sure what this would prove. In no way is this proof or indication of Israeli involvement in 9/11. Could just be the mossad had an idea/lead but no proof, (and I suppose informed the Americans) but without convincing intelligence, some individuals from eg Mossad decided to warn a few friends/relatives anyway. Just a hypothesis. I somehow doubt we will ever know.

Does this sound like I believe Isreal staged 9/11 ? Let alone, I would claim they did (as you keep on suggesting) ?

If you wanted to avoid that topic, you should have stopped posting to this thread, and it would have died long ago.

And leave everyone to believe that I said what you continue to claim I said ? Fat chance. I have my pride.

 

[renata]

Why do you want me to copy paste what I've been saying all this time ? Scroll up and read my posts. My main point was the PNAC thing. Still up for you to read here:http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16256
I reposted the unmodified version in this thread, up a few posts. You may notice the complete absense of the words Mossad, Jews or Israel.

As for what happened on 9/11 I have no f*cking idea. But okay, lets rephrase what I said (when being pressed on this topic):
1) A Jewish friend of mine, whom I called since I was worried after 9/11, told me shortly after the event he stayed home that day, after receiving a warning. He would not restate that afterwards, instead saying it was a coincidence. true untrue ? I dont know. Did he imagine it ? Did I ? I dont know. If true, who warned him ? No fricking idea.

2) When pressed by Renata on how this would be impossible, and immediately implying I meant Mossad warned him, as well as 4.000 other Jews, but not the US authorities, I speculated in a PM to her on another possibility to try to show her that by no means, I was trying to insinuate Isreali involvement in 9/11 (which, btw, I explicitely stated). this was and still is my hypothesis:

Intelligence agencies had recveived warnings, which is only logical I think given the scale of this thing -however, receiving warnings is something different from being able to fully qualify and interprete them to prevent what happened. But I could imagine someone working for Mossad or CIA or even the KGB if you like, taking these claims serious enough as to warn relatives or friends working in the WTC. I know I would, if I had even vague indications this might happen, but they were not substantial enough to shut down all airtraffic and evacuate the WTC or not substantial enough to be taken serious by my superiors.. I know I'd ask my wife to stay home that day if she worked in the WTC. Wouldnt you ? But would you call the press and say:"hello, the WTC is about to be bombed, please evacuate at once ?" Not likely.
So this is purely a speculative attempt to explain what I witnessed. Im open to other explications. And if you dont believe my first claim, I wont blame you, and I wont press it. I wouldnt believe it, and I have no proof. So, thats why I prefered to keep the thread on topic (PNAC), and stop this debate. However Renata started twisting my words, and making it sound like I claimed 9/11 was Mossad thing.. I hope you can understand I continue to refute that.


So I am to believe this statement was not directed at me:" So now Holocaust deniers have a new hobby....conspiracy theories about the Mossad and 9/11". yeah right. If nothing else, at the very least you called me a creep and applauded Renata's continueing manipulations and outright lies. And you apparently did so, without even bothering to read closely what I said, and what I did not say.

The proof is in the pudding. The part of your post you did not delete is still there. By deleting your original claims, you now attempt to paint me a liar, but it does not take away your words. I reposted them several times in this thread, people can see for themselves. Obfuscate all you want. However, I (unlike you) never, once lied in this thread. Not once.

Edited to add

As this has now become one long personal attack on me, and I have said what I felt I needed to say in this matter, I am now bowing out of this thread. I do not anticipate Chicken will say anything new other than repeating that he did not mean what he quite clearly wrote.

 

[rikzilla]

Why do you want me to copy paste what I've been saying all this time ? Scroll up and read my posts. My main point was the PNAC thing. Still up for you to read here:http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16256
I reposted the unmodified version in this thread, up a few posts. You may notice the complete absense of the words Mossad, Jews or Israel.

The "PNAC thing" was your main point? If so, then you have no point. PNAC is interesting...but it is hardly proof of anything. There are many think tank type groups across the nation...many of them espouse weird ideas. PNAC is meaningless, but a fun topic of debate. You don't appear to be debating PNAC...you seem to be saying this:

As for what happened on 9/11 I have no f*cking idea. But okay, lets rephrase what I said (when being pressed on this topic):
1) A Jewish friend of mine, whom I called since I was worried after 9/11, told me shortly after the event he stayed home that day, after receiving a warning. He would not restate that afterwards, instead saying it was a coincidence. true untrue ? I dont know. Did he imagine it ? Did I ? I dont know. If true, who warned him ? No fricking idea.

So you have "no fricking idea"? Then why are you linking this to PNAC? You must have an idea or you would not be here. You are obfuscating now. Also, your account of your "friend" (or whatever) is highly suspect. It would appear to be a rehash and paraphrase of the nasty little myth about 4,000 Jews warned by Mossad. You object by saying that you never said "4,000 Jews or Mossad....and yet your story fits the myth perfectly. You have repackaged it. Poorly I might add. You are attempting to bolster the myth...which inclines me to believe more than ever that you are like a Holocaust Denier. HDer's routinely attempt the same type of obfuscation that you are attempting...except they do it better.

2) When pressed by Renata on how this would be impossible, and immediately implying I meant Mossad warned him, as well as 4.000 other Jews, but not the US authorities, I speculated in a PM to her on another possibility to try to show her that by no means, I was trying to insinuate Isreali involvement in 9/11 (which, btw, I explicitely stated). this was and still is my hypothesis:

Intelligence agencies had recveived warnings, which is only logical I think given the scale of this thing -however, receiving warnings is something different from being able to fully qualify and interprete them to prevent what happened. But I could imagine someone working for Mossad or CIA or even the KGB if you like, taking these claims serious enough as to warn relatives or friends working in the WTC. I know I would, if I had even vague indications this might happen, but they were not substantial enough to shut down all airtraffic and evacuate the WTC or not substantial enough to be taken serious by my superiors.. I know I'd ask my wife to stay home that day if she worked in the WTC. Wouldnt you ? But would you call the press and say:"hello, the WTC is about to be bombed, please evacuate at once ?" Not likely.
So this is purely a speculative attempt to explain what I witnessed. Im open to other explications. And if you dont believe my first claim, I wont blame you, and I wont press it. I wouldnt believe it, and I have no proof. So, thats why I prefered to keep the thread on topic (PNAC), and stop this debate. However Renata started twisting my words, and making it sound like I claimed 9/11 was Mossad thing.. I hope you can understand I continue to refute that.

You "witnessed" something?? Or are you attempting to say that the anecdote of your "friend" is the "event" you "witnessed"??? From what I can see you witnessed nothing. You were told something. It could be truth, or lie....you have no idea which it was do you? Yet you come here with this story.

You are either a fool, thinking gossip rises to the level of evidence to be "witnessed". Or you are an evil anti-semite, seeking to spread evil anti-semitic untruths. Is this a false dichotomy? I don't think so.....I don't see much room in between for you on this issue.

You can either admit out loud that you don't know if your "friend" was telling the truth or not.....or you can tell us you know, and how you know by explaining to us what evidence you trully did witness in person. Or you can run away in shame because we pegged you for the nasty piece of work you are.

So I am to believe this statement was not directed at me:" So now Holocaust deniers have a new hobby....conspiracy theories about the Mossad and 9/11". yeah right. If nothing else, at the very least you called me a creep and applauded Renata's continueing manipulations and outright lies. And you apparently did so, without even bothering to read closely what I said, and what I did not say.

If Renata has lied and I see evidence of her lies I will spare no effort in denouncing her. I see no evidence that she has lied about you...if anything it seems her perception of what you represent becomes truer as I get to talk to you more.

You may be forgiven for being foolish enough to believe gossip is evidence...we've all been fooled before.....but you cannot be forgiven for coming to this board and attempt to promote an untruth. Period.

-zilla

 

[Scared Chicken]

The "PNAC thing" was your main point? If so, then you have no point. PNAC is interesting...but it is hardly proof of anything. There are many think tank type groups across the nation...many of them espouse weird ideas. PNAC is meaningless, but a fun topic of debate.

Considering the names of those behind PNAC (like the US vice president and the sectretary of Defence), i would not say "meaningless".. but then that's just my opinion.

So you have "no fricking idea"? Then why are you linking this to PNAC? You must have an idea or you would not be here.

In the original PNAC post, I alluded to a series of strange events, like these Senator planecrashes, and a almost prophetical notion in the report of a 'New Pearl Harbor', and remaining questions on the events surrounding 9/11. I dont know if there is a connection, I dont know if any or all of these consiparicy stories have any truth to them (let alone, I could proof them) but I prefer to keep my eyes open, and I was merely asking others to do the same.

However, on hindsight I'll gladly admit it was a bad idea to mix these conspiracy stories with the PNAC report story, as it polluted the main point, and it did not increase the credibility of the post. Thats why I removed these points from the thread.

You "witnessed" something?? Or are you attempting to say that the anecdote of your "friend" is the "event" you "witnessed"???

Pardon my lack of knowlegde of the English language if "witness" is the wrong word. I heard a friend saying he got a warning. If that does not make me a "witness" I do not know what word to use.

You can either admit out loud that you don't know if your "friend" was telling the truth or not.....or you can tell us you know, and how you know by explaining to us what evidence you trully did witness in person.

I think I have said on more than one occasion that I can not know if he was telling the truth.

I see no evidence that she has lied about you...

Well, if not lying, at least she confused her own interpretation with what I actually said. "As evidence, he said he spoke to an Israeli relative who worked at WTC, and who told him he was warned by Mossad not to go". I never claimed that, and Renata has not taken this back. Instead, she insists I did say it, while she only thinks I implied that. Whats worse, is that she extrapolates from that, that Im an antisemite, and believe the Mossad was behind 9/11. This is simply untrue and contradicts everything I believe, and everything I have ever said (even in that PM I state the exact opposite, but she continues to ignore that).

So, to sum this up: if you dont believe I heard what I did, call me a liar. If you believe I heard it via, via.. call me a fool (and liar). But saying I claim the Mossad was behind 9/11 is not only incorrect, its insulting, and calling me an antisemite or holocaust-denier is way, way over the line. I will not tolerate that.

 

[rikzilla]

So, to sum this up: if you dont believe I heard what I did, call me a liar. If you believe I heard it via, via.. call me a fool (and liar). But saying I claim the Mossad was behind 9/11 is not only incorrect, its insulting, and calling me an antisemite or holocaust-denier is way, way over the line. I will not tolerate that. [/B]

Your posting of the anecdote from the friend invites the comparison SC. Go read the 4,000 Jew story somewhere and see how your friend's story fits. I find it reasonable for Renata to equate your friend's story to it. PNAC is another issue entirely, I see no linkage but find it of interest regardless. Perhaps you could start a thread about that?

I do believe you may have heard this story from your "friend". If so I would contact him and demand evidence or retraction. When a friend lies to me he becomes an ex-friend. This friend has made you look foolish...and you have been foolish to credulously take his word.

This is a site populated by skeptics of all stripes. We don't agree on much here...but we do agree on the value of hard evidence when it comes to separating the $hit from the shinola. Most here will be willing to believe that Jesus walked on water and UFO's visit the earth.....we merely ask for evidence of these claims. If the evidence does not exist....then the claim may as well not even be given voice. It's baseless speculation. While speculation may be fun in religion or philosophy....things such as your friend's claim are not fun, but harmful. This myth is meant to do nothing less than demonize Jews and spread fear and hatred. Baseless speculation which causes pain and harm is worse than illogical... it's libelous and just plain morally wrong.

-z

 

[Wayne Grabert]

Originally posted by ssibal
Wayne, is this the story you are referring to?
http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/ap-wp.html
It seems that the story was bogus. Gotta hand it to Fox for being somewhat consistent.

Thank you. Yes, the story Fox reported involved art students. Well, that knocks the whole sinister matter out completely.

 

[Scared Chicken]

Your posting of the anecdote from the friend invites the comparison SC. Go read the 4,000 Jew story somewhere and see how your friend's story fits. I find it reasonable for Renata to equate your friend's story to it.

Which is quite a different thing from putting words in my mouth, and insisting I said it, when I clearly did not. I can understand she misinterpreted what I said, which is why I immediately sent her the PM to try and rectify that. I see no reason why she wanted to publish that PM, and twist my words other than labeling being able to lable me as an antisemite.

PNAC is another issue entirely, I see no linkage but find it of interest regardless. Perhaps you could start a thread about that?

LOL.. I did, didn't I ? Only it got polluted and ended it this endless debate on wether or not I said "mossad warned israeli about 9/11". The PNAC issue now being completely ignored

I do believe you may have heard this story from your "friend". If so I would contact him and demand evidence or retraction. When a friend lies to me he becomes an ex-friend.

You obviously didnt read the whole thread (not that I can blame you for it.. there are better ways to spend your time). But he has become an ex-friend for a long time. If you must know, one of the reasons we broke contact was indeed this 9/11 event. After he initially told me he had been warned, and later denied that, I insisted on clearing this matter up. Irony or not, but he started accusing me of wanting to hear from him the mossad warned him, and you can imagine the rest. Very similar to whats been happening in this thread. I have nothing against Jews, heck, I even have some remains of Jewish blood running through my veins, but I have noticed over and over that its often hard, if not impossible to have a normal discussion with them from the moment they think just for one second anything you say could have antisemetic reasons behind them. From that moment, they label you as such, and everything you say will be seen in that context. But Im getting OT here...

...we merely ask for evidence of these claims. If the evidence does not exist....then the claim may as well not even be given voice. It's baseless speculation.

And why does that not apply to Renata's claim I said Jews where warned by the Mossad ? Somehow she is given the benefit of the doubt, even though I never said it, in spite of all her quotes, and most of my original posts contradict this claim completely. Where are these skeptics when you need them ?

This myth is meant to do nothing less than demonize Jews and spread fear and hatred.

Well, by saying what Im about to say, I will probably confirm my newly obtained label as "antisemetic" and pour oil on the fire, but why is it if one claims:
1) The muslims where behind 9/11, this is okay.
2) Iraq was behind 9/11, people call you GW Bush and give you a free hand to invade Iraq.
3) Extremists within the US themselves where behind 9/11, you are simply called a lunatic and ignored
4) Israeli where behind 9/11 you'r a holocaust denier and demonize Jews.
5) You dont claim any of the above, you still end up being called a holocaust denier.
FWIW, I'd much rather believe 3 than 4, but I cant help but notice that any reasonable debate on 4 would be strictly impossible.

 

[rikzilla]

1) The muslims where behind 9/11, this is okay.

It's okay because there is a great deal of evidence from various sources.

2) Iraq was behind 9/11, people call you GW Bush and give you a free hand to invade Iraq.

There is some evidence that Iraq suports international terrorism in general...and a few bits that it supports Al Qaida in particular. So this is not without merit.

3) Extremists within the US themselves where behind 9/11, you are simply called a lunatic and ignored

There is no evidence of this at all.

4) Israeli where behind 9/11 you'r a holocaust denier and demonize Jews.

There is no evidence of this at all,...with the added stigma of a naked attempt to foster fear and hatred of Jews.

5) You dont claim any of the above, you still end up being called a holocaust denier.

You danced around the issues. You used their tired old tactics. You repeated an anti-semitic conspiracy theory/myth which has been debunked over and over again. You gave it a different spin....but this does nothing to change the facts. You get what you deserve.

FWIW, I'd much rather believe 3 than 4, but I cant help but notice that any reasonable debate on 4 would be strictly impossible. [/B]

Nope...but given the history of slander against Jewish folks the evidence would have to be compelling.

-zilla

 

[gnome]

I would point out that Scared Chicken admits his friend/relative might not have been telling the truth about being warned.

I am not sure what else we can expect him to say, he made a lot of speculations but I don't read that he says he knew his speculations were correct. The only thing he insists on as a fact in this "warning" situation, is that he spoke to his friend/relative who said they were warned beforehand.

 

[Wayne Grabert]

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) Extremists within the US themselves where behind 9/11, you are simply called a lunatic and ignored
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no evidence of this at all.

Ahem, the hijackers were foreign nationals living in the US.

Here is a Guardian article on al Qaida's terror trail providing strong evidence of their responsibility.

I was trying to find information on the Atta warning that was ignored when I came across this article that claims that the US government was warned prior to 9/11 by Mossad and other foreign intelligence agencies that a major terrorist attack was about to occur. So this refutes the idea that Israel was withholding information from the United States.

The governments of at least four countries—Germany, Egypt, Russia and Israel—gave specific warnings to the US of an impending terrorist attack in the months preceding September 11. These alerts, while fragmentary, not only combined to foretell the scale of the attack and its main target, but indicated that hijacked commercial aircraft would be the weapon of choice.

According to an article in one of the major daily newspapers in Germany, published just after the destruction of the World Trade Center, the German intelligence service BND told both US and Israeli intelligence agencies in June that Middle East terrorists were “planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.”

The newspaper cited unnamed German intelligence sources, who said that the information came through Echelon, the US-controlled system of 120 satellites which monitors all worldwide electronic communications. Echelon is operated jointly by the United States, Canada, Britain, Australia and New Zealand, although its existence is not officially admitted. (Source: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, September 14, 2001)

The government of Egypt sent an urgent warning to the US June 13, based on a video made by Osama bin Laden. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak told the French newspaper Le Figaro that the warning was originally delivered just before the G-8 summit in Genoa. It was taken seriously enough that antiaircraft batteries were stationed around Christopher Columbus Airport in the Italian city. According to Mubarak, bin Laden “spoke of assassinating President Bush and other heads of state in Genoa. It was a question of an airplane stuffed with explosives. These precautions then had been taken.” (Source: New York Times, September 26, 2001, “2 Leaders Tell of Plot to Kill Bush in Genoa,” by David Sanger)

According to Russian press reports, Russian intelligence notified the CIA during the summer that 25 terrorist pilots had been specifically training for suicide missions. In an interview September 15 with MSNBC, Russian President Vladimir Putin confirmed that he had ordered Russian intelligence in August to warn the US government “in the strongest possible terms” of imminent attacks on airports and government buildings. (Source: From The Wilderness web site; MSNBC).

The London-based Sunday Telegraph —an arch-conservative newspaper usually highly supportive of the Bush administration—reported that the Israeli intelligence service Mossad had delivered a warning to the FBI and CIA in August that as many as 200 followers of Osama bin Laden were slipping into the country to prepare “a major assault on the United States.” The advisory spoke of a “large-scale target” in which Americans would be “very vulnerable.” The Los Angeles Times cited unnamed US officials confirming this Mossad warning had been received. (Source: Sunday Telegraph, September 16, 2001, “Israeli security issued urgent warning to CIA of large-scale terror attacks,” by David Wastell and Philip Jacobson; Los Angeles Times, September 20, 2001, “Officials Told of ‘Major Assault’ Plans,” by Richard A. Serrano and John-Thor Dahlburg)

The Independent, a liberal daily in Great Britain, published an article asserting the US government “was warned repeatedly that a devastating attack on the United States was on its way.” The Independent cited an interview given by Osama bin Laden to a London-based Arabic-language newspaper, al-Quds al-Arabi, in late August. About the same time, tighter security measures were ordered at the World Trade Center, for unexplained reasons. (Source: Independent, September 17, 2001, “Bush did not heed several warnings of attack,” by Andrew Gumbel)

Despite this series of alerts, no US intelligence agency issued any warning of a possible attack on a target on US territory in the months leading up to September 11. The CIA and FBI had issued warnings about likely attacks on American military bases or embassies in the Middle East, Europe and Asia. On September 7 the US Department of State issued a worldwide alert about an impending attack by bin Laden followers, although it was focused on US-related targets in east Asia, especially Japan, not within the US itself. As the ranking Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Richard Shelby, admitted, “This obviously was a failure of great dimension. We had no specific warning of the US being attacked.”

Moreover, the FBI’s decision to take no action on Zacarias Moussaoui must be considered in the light of this continuous stream of warnings from overseas. The US government was being repeatedly alerted to the danger of devastating attacks using hijacked commercial aircraft, yet the FBI decided to conduct no serious investigation into a man, believed by French intelligence to be linked to Osama bin Laden, who wanted to learn how to steer a 747 jumbo jet, but not to take off or land. Moussaoui was not even turned over to the FBI by the Immigration and Naturalization Service until after September 11.

Here is the section on Atta:

Even more extraordinary is the treatment of Mohammed Atta, the alleged ringleader of the hijackings. Atta was reportedly an object of attention for the Egyptian, German and American police and yet traveled without hindrance between Europe and America throughout 2000 and 2001.

According to a report on the German public television channel ARD, Atta was the subject of telephone monitoring by the Egyptian secret service, which had learned that he had made at least one recent visit to Afghanistan from his home in Hamburg, Germany. The German program, broadcast November 23, said that the American FBI had monitored Atta’s movements for several months in 2000, when he traveled several times from Hamburg to Frankfurt and bought large quantities of chemicals potentially usable in making explosives. Atta’s name was also mentioned in a Hamburg phone call between Islamic fundamentalists monitored by the German police in 1999. The BBC, commenting on the German report, said, “The evidence ... reinforces concerns that the international intelligence community may have known more about Atta before September 11 than was previously thought, but had failed to act.” (Source: British Broadcasting Corporation report, November 26, 2001)

Atta came to the attention of US authorities on several occasions in the course of 2001. In January he was allowed to reenter the United States after a trip to Germany, despite the fact that he was in violation of his visa status. He landed in Miami January 10 on a flight from Madrid, on a tourist visa, although he told immigration inspectors that he was taking flying lessons in the US, for which an M-1 student visa is required. Jeanne Butterfield, executive director of the American Immigration Lawyers Association, told the Washington Post, “Nine times out of 10, they would have told him to go back and file [for that status] overseas. You’re not supposed to come in as a visitor for pleasure and go to work or school.” The recipient of this indulgent treatment, it must be emphasized, had previously been under FBI surveillance for stockpiling bomb-making materials! (Source: Washington Post, October 28, 2001)

According to a report on Canadian television, Atta had been implicated in a terrorist bombing in Israel and the information passed on to the United States before he was first issued a tourist visa. (Source: Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, September 14, 2001, reported by Diana Swain from Vero Beach, Florida)

Atta made other trips to Europe, returning to Germany in May and visiting Spain in July, each time returning to the United States and being admitted by US customs and immigration. Another British press report notes that Atta “was under surveillance between January and May last year after he was reportedly observed buying large quantities of chemicals in Frankfurt, apparently for the production of explosives and for biological warfare. The US agents reported to have trailed Atta are said to have failed to inform the German authorities about their investigation. The disclosure that Atta was being trailed by police long before 11 September raises the question why the attacks could not have been prevented with the man’s arrest.” (Source: The Observer , September 30, 2001)

During the summer of 2001, Atta received a wire transfer of $100,000 from an account in Pakistan allegedly controlled by a representative of Osama bin Laden. This transfer has been cited repeatedly by US officials as proof that bin Laden inspired the September 11 attacks, but they have not explained how such a large sum of money could be transmitted with impunity to someone under FBI surveillance. Another remarkable fact: according to an Indian newspaper, the man who actually authorized the wire transfer to Atta was General Mahmud Ahmed, head of the Pakistani intelligence agency ISI, the principal sponsor of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. Ahmed was forced to resign after India made his role public and it was confirmed by the FBI. Coincidentally or not, Ahmed was in Washington, DC on September 11, for consultations with American intelligence officials. (Source: CNN report, October 1, 2001; The Times of India, October 11, 2001).

Maybe my memory is faulty, but what I seem to recall reading about Atta (or was it another of the hijackers?) that is not mentioned above is that he attended a meeting in Indonesia (someplace else?) conducted by some senior (though not top echelon) al Qaida figures. The information was given to two CIA agents who forwarded it to Washington--where it gathered dust till after 9/11. The information was never shared with the FBI.

Does anyone else remember this story?