Vatican upset over Belgian child abuse investigation. Calls it "unprecedented"

Ladewig

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Ladewig
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Vatican upset over Belgian child abuse investigation. Calls it "unprecedented"

BBC story

Belgian authorities have raided the headquarters of the Belgian Catholic Church during an investigation into child sex abuse claims.

A spokesman for the Brussels prosecutors' office confirmed that the palace of the archbishop of Mechelen-Brussels had been sealed off.

Police also raided the home of retired Archbishop Godfried Danneels.

Belgium is one of several countries in which a stream of abuse claims have shaken the Church.

Brussels prosecutors were looking for material relating to allegations of sex abuse, a spokesman for the prosecutors' office said.

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In another BBC story the Vatican even calls the Belgian ambassador to the Vatican to complain.

The Vatican has expressed shock at raids, including the "violation" of a cathedral crypt, by Belgian police investigating alleged child sex abuse.

As well as searching a couple of main Church offices and a cardinal's home, police had drilled holes in two archbishops' tombs, said the Church.

Prosecutors said the raids were over alleged "abuse of minors committed by a certain number of Church figures".

-snip-

In April, the Bishop of Bruges, Roger Vangheluwe, resigned after admitting he had sexually abused a boy more than 20 years ago.

The Vatican has summoned the Belgian ambassador to the Holy See to voice anger over Thursday's raids.

Police in Leuven seized nearly 500 files and a computer from the offices of a Church commission investigating allegations of sex abuse.
-snip-

In a statement, the Vatican expressed "shock over how the searches were carried out by Belgian judicial authorities and indignation over the violation of the graves of the Cardinals Jozef-Ernest Van Roey and Leon-Joseph Suenens," reports AFP news agency.

The raids had been the stuff of "crime novels and The Da Vinci Code", said the Church's leader in Belgium, Archbishop Andre-Joseph Leonard.

-snip-

The Vatican said the raids had led to the "violation of confidentiality of precisely those victims for whom the raids were carried out".

The Catholic Church in Belgium has apologised for its silence on abuse cases in the past and Archbishop Leonard has promised a policy of zero tolerance.
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and one more

The Vatican has stepped up its criticism of raids by Belgian police investigating alleged child sex abuse, calling the detention of priests "serious and unbelievable".

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican Secretary of State, said "there are no precedents, not even under the old communist regimes".

He claimed the priests were held for nine hours without eating or drinking.

Several buildings of the Belgium Church were searched on Thursday

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I agree that holding people for nine hours without food or drink is a clear violation of civil rights. I do not agree that doing that was worse than anything done under communist regimes.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Skeptico blogs about it.
 
Well done, Belgium.

I'll believe the part about denying prisoners food and drink once it comes from a marginally more credible source than the world's largest association of paedophiles.
 
I am hoping this part: "The Vatican said the raids had led to the 'violation of confidentiality of precisely those victims for whom the raids were carried out'." is a mistranslation. My mind boggles at the reasoning that says, you shouldn't investigate crimes we committed because such an investigation will lead the criminal justice system to discover the names of the abused children that we documented in our own internal investigation (i.e. arresting us for crimes we committed will only harm the victims).
 
Thread title said:
Vatican [...] child abuse [...]
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Ugh... again?
Oh, wait, it's good news this time! Swell!

Belgian authorities have raided the headquarters of the Belgian Catholic Church during an investigation into child sex abuse claims.
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For an organization that considers itself above the law, that must be quite upsetting, yes.

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican Secretary of State, said "there are no precedents, not even under the old communist regimes".
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Aw, boo-***********-hoo. As far as I know, the old Communist regimes, servicemen and politicians would face charges and arrest (or even execution) if they were caught sexually abusing someone. In the Catholic Church, you're merely hushed away to another church, preferably in some backwater third world country.

The RCC can rant to its heart's content about Communist countries when it gets its own act together.
 
I heard this on the news the other day. I did wonder about drilling into tombs. Does anyone know what that was about?
 
Fiona said:
I heard this on the news the other day. I did wonder about drilling into tombs. Does anyone know what that was about?
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I was wondering about that myself. Letting the spirits loose to wreak revenge? Gathering body fluids evidence? The mind boggles.
 
Let's see if anything comes of it.

I am surprised the searches went that far, but that is fine. The Vatican can be "shocked" all they want, but when they have previously demonstrated the skill at keeping crimes a secret, they cannot pretend that they didn't bring it on themselves.


Let's hope that all of this means there won't be any more children abused.
 
Fiona said:
I heard this on the news the other day. I did wonder about drilling into tombs. Does anyone know what that was about?
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from the article:
Investigators made holes in the tombs of two former Belgian primates at Mechelen cathedral, and sent down cameras in search of any hidden documents, without success, said a Church spokesman.
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Ok thanks. Seems a bit odd to me but no doubt it will become clearer as more information emerges: or maybe it won't :)
 
I am surprised the searches went that far, but that is fine. The Vatican can be "shocked" all they want, but when they have previously demonstrated the skill at keeping crimes a secret, they cannot pretend that they didn't bring it on themselves.
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Indeedy. The punishment suits the crime.
 
Fiona said:
Ok thanks. Seems a bit odd to me but no doubt it will become clearer as more information emerges: or maybe it won't :)
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I agree. it seems extreme, but again I do not know what the leads were. Also, as I said, the church hid the story for so long, it seems reasonable that they would have hid info in excessive ways.
 
Go, Belgium! Go, Belgium! Go, Belgium! Go, Belgium! Go, Belgium! Go, Belgium! Go, Belgium! Go, Belgium! Go, Belgium!

Bigger balls on that little country than any other in the world so far.

I hope the Belgian ambassador to the Vatican said, "Quel dommage, ********," or words to that effect.
 
joobz said:
I agree. it seems extreme, but again I do not know what the leads were. Also, as I said, the church hid the story for so long, it seems reasonable that they would have hid info in excessive ways.
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I think it is reasonable: The tombs are basically big hollow spaces. Fairly ideal locations to go and hide stuff.

How is it in any way extreme? It's not the police's fault the church happens to keep dead people on their premises.

"Oh you can't look *there*!" - where in heck is that supposed to work?
 
Rasmus said:
I think it is reasonable: The tombs are basically big hollow spaces. Fairly ideal locations to go and hide stuff.
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Not really because if people do look there it's automaticaly suspicious if they find anything. By comparision hard encrypted documents in a computer file with your accounts in is less suspicious.
 
"Oh you can't look *there*!" - where in heck is that supposed to work?
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It's the same organization that basically considers itself above every police force on the planet (much like immigrant societies in Europe that refuse to cooperate with Western police officers because the only law they recognize is Sharia Law). What do you expect?
 
According to the CIA World Factbook, Belgium is 75% Catholic. If this can be done in a country with such a large Catholic majority, I hope this gives the green light to other caountries.
 
KodeBlue said:
According to the CIA World Factbook, Belgium is 75% Catholic. If this can be done in a country with such a large Catholic majority, I hope this gives the green light to other caountries.
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Wow, that does make this a bit more ballsy. We can only hope others will follow suit.
 
Way to go, Belgium.

The catholic church needs to be investigated, held responsible, and bankrupted.

Bastards.
 
every other organization with such a disgusting history and present like the catholic church would be forbidden.
 
I'm happy to see this, and even happier to see the clueless Church leadership once again showing the world how mind-bogglingly out-of-touch & arrogant they are. With stuff like this, they are their own worst enemy.

 
KodeBlue, keep in mind that Europe is a fairly secular place. "75% Catholic" doesn't neccessarily mean "75% frothing-at-the-mouth die-hard Catholics eager to throw themselves at the thorat of anyone criticizing or investigating the RCC".
 
If the tombs were sealed so they couldn't be opened, then what it the likelihood of them being used to hide documents? Hiding places only work well if you can get into them yourself, if you can't, then....

As to being held for nine hours without representation, or communication. That is over the top regardless of who and what the police were after. That sort of thing ends up with charges being dismissed due to breach or rights, highly counter productive.
 
PhantomWolf said:
If the tombs were sealed so they couldn't be opened, then what it the likelihood of them being used to hide documents? Hiding places only work well if you can get into them yourself, if you can't, then....
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It's been claimed that there was recent building work on the tombs. However it would still make little sense to put any documents there. I would expect all the problematical details to be inside people's head.
 
Fiona said:
Ok thanks. Seems a bit odd to me but no doubt it will become clearer as more information emerges: or maybe it won't :)
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Again from the second OP link:

A spokesman for the Belgian prosecutor in the Belgian capital told news agency Reuters that investigators partially opened one tomb in the cathedral after someone mentioned work had recently been carried out on the grave's exterior.
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*shrugs*
 
Ladewig said:
--- and one more

The Vatican has stepped up its criticism of raids by Belgian police investigating alleged child sex abuse, calling the detention of priests "serious and unbelievable".

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican Secretary of State, said "there are no precedents, not even under the old communist regimes".

He claimed the priests were held for nine hours without eating or drinking.

Several buildings of the Belgium Church were searched on Thursday

-more-
Click to expand...

I agree that holding people for nine hours without food or drink is a clear violation of civil rights. I do not agree that doing that was worse than anything done under communist regimes. ...
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Geez, the poor catholic church. Almost sounds like they're being subjected to a -- oh whatchamacallit? oh yeah! -- Inquisition.
 
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No one expects the Belgian Inquisition? Their chief weapon is chips. Chips and mayonnaise. Their two chief weapons are chips and mayonnaise. Chips, mayonnaise and Poirot.

...


I'll come in again.
 
Sledge said:
No one expects the Belgian Inquisition? Their chief weapon is chips. Chips and mayonnaise. Their two chief weapons are chips and mayonnaise. Chips, mayonnaise and Poirot.
...

I'll come in again.
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Marlon Brando voice:

Stella!
 
geni said:
It's been claimed that there was recent building work on the tombs. However it would still make little sense to put any documents there. I would expect all the problematical details to be inside people's head.
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Putting documents in a place and then sealing it up would make sense if they were not needed for sometime. They would be reasonably safe there from a casual inspection.

Documents that can be used to blackmail people would be one of many such types of documents that could be hidden there.
 
What a cush job the Belgian ambassador to the Vatican must have.
 
geni said:
It's been claimed that there was recent building work on the tombs. However it would still make little sense to put any documents there. I would expect all the problematical details to be inside people's head.
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If I had any child pornography on my computer, you wuoldn't find it in a million years, even if I told you it was there.

Yet, again and again, people are found guilty of possessing such material simply because it could easily be found on their computers and in their places.

Should the police stop looking, because a smart criminal would not leave it to be found?

And, really, why is it a problem that they checked the tombs? the people using them are hardly going to complain, are they?

Oh, and how come the church is bothered by it, specifically? They are the ones putting part of dead people on display all over the place, aren't they? (When they are not busy buying and selling them. Look up the rules, they are really neat: You are allowed to buy relics from the heretics, but you may only give them to the church freely ...)
 
KodeBlue said:
According to the CIA World Factbook, Belgium is 75% Catholic. If this can be done in a country with such a large Catholic majority, I hope this gives the green light to other caountries.
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In this case, "Catholic" means "gets baptised, first communion and married in church and nothing else". The amount of actual practising catholics is much, much lower. Abortion is legal there as well, to give you an idea.
 
Fishstick said:
In this case, "Catholic" means "gets baptised, first communion and married in church and nothing else". The amount of actual practising catholics is much, much lower. Abortion is legal there as well, to give you an idea.
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Completely correct. The Dutch Wikipedia entry on Belgium quotes 8% weekly church visitors in 2006 which seems very likely to me.

I've just read my morning paper, so maybe I can shine a bit more light on this story. For some months already there's a church commission working on the child abuse issue, led by a well respected child psychiatrist and including other people from outside the church. They have collected about 500 confidential reports from people claiming to have been abused by a priest during the last 30 years or so. Until now this commission is not suspected of wanting to hide anything.

Apparently a woman working for the bishop of Mechelen has reported to the police that the church would be holding back some internal reports of child abuse. That's why the police raided these buildings. The unexpected thing is that they also took all the 500 reports from the commission (which is not the same as the church). Remember that the people who contacted this commission did that in good faith and not necessarily wanted to contact the law about that. Their story risks getting more public than ever intended. Many people here are fearing now that in the future social organisations will have much more trouble earning the trust of people because of this action.

So of course the church is upset, but most people here worry more about the confidentiality issue.
 
Fishstick said:
In this case, "Catholic" means "gets baptised, first communion and married in church and nothing else". The amount of actual practising catholics is much, much lower. Abortion is legal there as well, to give you an idea.
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Quite right,I have lived in Belgium for a long time and none of my family,friends or acquaintances are practising Catholics.
 
I think this demonstrates what the RC Church considers is important i.e. the Church itself. Any other organisation would have issued a statement more along the lines of "We are sure there is no substance to the allegations however we are cooperating fully with the authorities".
 
Fishstick said:
In this case, "Catholic" means "gets baptised, first communion and married in church and nothing else". The amount of actual practising catholics is much, much lower. Abortion is legal there as well, to give you an idea.
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If it is a governmental statistic, the level is probably lower: being born from catholic parents makes you catholic.
 
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