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[Continuation] UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

I Googled Scorpion's Ray Bowyer pilot report and picked up a video of him being questioned by several different interviewers on various TV channels.


The UFO was described in the headlines at the time that the object was "gigantic" and a "mile long". However, during the interview the pilot stated that the object was around 40 to 50 miles away and so he qualified the size estimate when prompted and simply said that it must have been large. However, the sighting was interesting and so was the description of the object. A second object was also seen in the area by a different pilot at the same time, and both were seen on radar. Both of these objects said the pilot, should not have been in an air controlled area. In conclusion, all we can say in my view, is that these kind of sightings although unusual and sometimes disturbing, can never really be explained in a definitive way. Only suggestions can be made as an
alternative to alien technology, and frankly in this case at least with so little physical evidence, can anything be proven.
The point isn't to provide alternative explanations for alien technology,
alien technology is the alternate explanation until all the other more mundane explanations have been ruled out. If you can't do that, then aliens should never even come up. "We don't know" is an acceptable answer.
 
It was not a helicopter, I am sure of that. It was soundless and had no lights, other that what I assume was the sun reflecting from it.
This is tired old stuff debunked long ago. It could have been a helicopter. At 4000 or 5000 feet AGL they can be very quiet, and your "assume it was the sun" light could have been just a light on the object. No evidence means the best answer is "I don't know", and unexplained to you does not mean unexplainable or even unexplained to anyone else.
 
Ufoologists strike me like JFK conspiracists: They've been around so long that I want to (wearily) ask them, Okay, so what now? Your aliens are as boring as the grassy knoll. They never do a damn thing. If they're the best & brightest the universe can come up with, then ◊◊◊◊ 'em, let's go bowling.

Well, that's what I *would* to say to 'em. If I ever got the chance.
 
The plaintiff in a rear-end collision generally wants to prove that the driver behind (presumably the defendant) was following too closely.
Around here you're always at fault for that, cause you're supposed to be able to stop in time even when the guy in front of you, for example, has just had his car unexpectedly stopped by an entire deer.

Point taken anyways!
 
Around here you're always at fault for that, cause you're supposed to be able to stop in time even when the guy in front of you, for example, has just had his car unexpectedly stopped by an entire deer.

Point taken anyways!
It's generally the case that a rear-end collision is strictly the fault of the following driver. However, when it comes down to a jury award for damages, such things factor in. "I was following ten car lengths behind," is seen as less negligible than, "I was drinking tea off his trunk/boot lid."

But yes, the point is that humans are really, really bad at estimating distances beyond a very close proximity. Apropos of highways, a study was done asking drivers how long they thought the dashes were on U.S. highways. The estimates came in at around two feet. They are, in fact, ten feet long, with 30-foot spaces in between them.
 
Need to say this one more time. I was an active UFO believer, I had all the books, I listened to Art Bell nightly, I rented all the videos, and I attended a monthly UFO discussion group in town for around four years. I'm also a semi-active ghost-hunter.

This current round of UFO/UAP bruhaha is horse apples. Crap-ola. BS.

Nothing but repackaged lies lead by a former Gitmo torturer who is (apparently) skilled at manipulating people. These lies are the ones I bought into throughout the 1990s:
1. Revelation of the US Government's UFO program is right around the corner.
2. The US Government has recovered alien craft, and bodies of the occupants.
3. The Government is suppressing the truth.

The difference between the 1990s and today is we had Wikileaks, Bradley Manning, and Edward Snowden. These two clowns leaked truckloads of classified files from all across the board, and today anyone can read them. These were sensitive files dealing with an ongoing war, and as such put special operations forces in jeopardy. To this date both Manning and Snowden are alive an well. Snowden might even get a pardon under our new regime. Point being, neither man was assassinated by the darkest forces of the US military whom they compromised. So where is the risk of coming forward about UFO/UAPs?

Seriously, where are the Snowdens and Mannings of the Government UFO program?

If we have recovered alien craft, where are they? Name that location. Name the team of scientists working on the back-engineering. They must be getting a paycheck from somewhere. What are the project's code names?

This whole thing is stupid. Not for lack of trying, but the UFO community has never been interested in facts, nor science. Looking at blurry smartphone video is like porn to them. Not once will they seriously investigate a sighting, just run with it. I'm happy I walked away from that circus twenty years ago.
 
I am still reading the book UFOs and will not finish it for a couple of days. I will consider criticism of it then. Meantime I want to mention two times in my life I have seen something unexplained.
The first was when I was in junior school and I was in the playground during a break. I cannot remember how old I was but I was probably under ten years old. I looked up and saw what appeared to be a silver disk hovering directly overhead. From below a weather balloon might look like a disk, but I had the impression it was round metallic and silver. I cannot remember what happened, because I think I was called in from the playground. I remember wanting to keep watching it but I don't think I was allowed to.

So this whatever-it-was appeared in broad daylight and hovered over a school playground- and you were the only person to notice it? Hardly a credible claim. Did no-one else in that area- and presumably, as it has a school, you were in some kind of built-up area- report seeing anything similar? If not, have you considered the possibility that you misidentified something?
The second time, is an event I have already posted somewhere on the forum. I was in the garden on a clear night looking for sputnik one when it was due to pass overhead in Kent. While looking for the sputnik I noticed what looked like a faint star was moving along in relation to the stars around it. It was moving very slowly and then it stopped moving and stayed still for a minute or two. Then it started moving again. Then it stopped again for a similar amount of time, and it did this several times until disappearing from view. Soon after that Sputnik one appeared and it rose from the horizon in a continuous movement. It was brighter than the moving star object and it soon passed overhead and disappeared from view.

Souns like you saw an insect, to me. How were you able to estimate the size and distance of this object?
I still wonder what it was that I saw as in those days there was not supposed to be anything else up there except the sputnik. It was not a helicopter, I am sure of that. It was soundless and had no lights, other that what I assume was the sun reflecting from it.
Are you privy to all approved flight plans, plus military flights and also the paths of overhead satellites, in your area? I assume not, in which case I have to ask, how do you know there was 'not supposed to be anything else up there'?
 
I suspect a lot of UFO reports are down to people assuming that what they're looking at is an aircraft-sized object at a typical aircraft distance, but which is actually something much smaller much closer. Party balloons, sky lanterns ...

There was a sighting we discussed here many moons ago which was reported as a craft doing impossible maneuvers over a distant lake, which we eventually worked out was almost certainly a firefly doing its mating dance a few metres away.
 
The point isn't to provide alternative explanations for alien technology,
alien technology is the alternate explanation until all the other more mundane explanations have been ruled out. If you can't do that, then aliens should never even come up. "We don't know" is an acceptable answer.
Surely the point is, at least as far as this forum is concerned, is to comment on other claims that refer to alien technology as a first resort, and which my post was addressing, and not pedantry stating the obvious.
 
That sounds rather like a book rehashing the various famous UFO stories which have been exhaustively and amusingly debunked here over the years. No matter how often these stories are picked apart and shown to have no worthwhile substance it doesn't prevent some enthusiast from publishing yet another book repeating them all again.

I have a suspicion that if you were to describe any one of the tales from the book we'd be able to find a thread somewhere around here where it was previously considered.
Kean has been a regular guest on Coast to Coast since the 2000s. She's also the idiot that brought David "people I can't reveal told me that other people have told them" Grusch to prominence.
 
I Googled Scorpion's Ray Bowyer pilot report and picked up a video of him being questioned by several different interviewers on various TV channels.


The UFO was described in the headlines at the time that the object was "gigantic" and a "mile long". However, during the interview the pilot stated that the object was around 40 to 50 miles away and so he qualified the size estimate when prompted and simply said that it must have been large. However, the sighting was interesting and so was the description of the object. A second object was also seen in the area by a different pilot at the same time, and both were seen on radar. Both of these objects said the pilot, should not have been in an air controlled area. In conclusion, all we can say in my view, is that these kind of sightings although unusual and sometimes disturbing, can never really be explained in a definitive way. Only suggestions can be made as an alternative to alien technology, and frankly in this case at least with so little physical evidence, can anything be proven.
The thing is, for sightings like this one, there are many mundane explanations that are far more probable than "aliensdidit", up to and including the pilot made a horrifically bad guess because he's far more confident of his abilities to judge distance and size than he should be.
 
Surely the point is, at least as far as this forum is concerned, is to comment on other claims that refer to alien technology as a first resort, and which my post was addressing, and not pedantry stating the obvious.
No blindly accepting the least likely explanation of an event isn't the point. This is not a UFO truther site after all.
 
Kean has been a regular guest on Coast to Coast since the 2000s. She's also the idiot that brought David "people I can't reveal told me that other people have told them" Grusch to prominence.
On paper, Kean is a "UFO agnostic." Her jury may be out on what UFOs could be, but she's clearly a UFO capitalist. Grusch is just one of her latest efforts to fleece the flock according to the tried-and-true, "Reliable observers can't be easily dismissed," ploy.
 
The thing is 'reliable observers' of the night sky, i.e. astronomers, don't report UAPs. I wonder why.
 
This is off Greenstreet's Twitter feed as he covers the House UAP hearings today:

Did Congresswoman Nancy Mace and journalist Michael Shellenberger misrepresent UFO "evidence" presented to Congress?At the "UFO hearing", Mace presented a document "from the Pentagon" that she says she got from Shellenberger.But several witnesses say that's not true.They instead claim:• UFO celebrity Jeremy Corbell pulled a document from his backpack• Corbell hands this dubious document, which has a cover letter written and signed by Corbell, to a "Congressional aide"

During the hearing, Mace presents the document WITHOUT Corbell's signed cover letter and says it's "from the Pentagon" and that she got it from journalist Michael Shellenberger
Link:
Shellenberger tweets the document saying it came "from a whistleblower and released today by Nancy Mace". The tweet currently has over 2 million views
Link:
I'm won't waste time pointing out this is in no way an official government document of any kind. But it gets better...

UFO advocates tweet Corbell's missing cover letter

Link:
I think we can identify these objects now. They're of Graft Zeppelin-Class. Lying sacks of doodoo.
 
The thing is 'reliable observers' of the night sky, i.e. astronomers, don't report UAPs. I wonder why.
Plus about 18,000 meteorological observing stations around the world that report on what is seen in the sky every hour, 24 hours a day. At one time the stations were all manned with a physical human being but some are now automated.

They don't see any UAPs either.
 
This is off Greenstreet's Twitter feed as he covers the House UAP hearings today:




Link:

Link:
I'm won't waste time pointing out this is in no way an official government document of any kind. But it gets better...



Link:
I think we can identify these objects now. They're of Graft Zeppelin-Class. Lying sacks of doodoo.
If the issue were really this important, what with the future of the planet a sake, do the brave thing and just tell us for God's sake. Surely every minute of our ignorance leads us deeper into peril?
 
Plus about 18,000 meteorological observing stations around the world that report on what is seen in the sky every hour, 24 hours a day. At one time the stations were all manned with a physical human being but some are now automated.

They don't see any UAPs either.
What meteorological observing stations are you referring to?

As far as I know, meteorological stations aren't particularly well equipped to correlate radar and visual contacts across a substantial arc of the sky.
 
What meteorological observing stations are you referring to?
As far as I know, meteorological stations aren't particularly well equipped to correlate radar and visual contacts across a substantial arc of the sky.
The ones where meteorological technicians go outside every hour and look at the sky to report cloud type, heights, and coverage of sky. And a whole bunch of other weather parameters. Plus any other atmospheric phenomena such as sun dogs etc.

The Canadian manual for observers MANOBS) is here:
https://www.canada.ca/en/environmen...ntation/manobs-surface-observations.html#toc0

Peruse as you wish.
 
So this whatever-it-was appeared in broad daylight and hovered over a school playground- and you were the only person to notice it? Hardly a credible claim. Did no-one else in that area- and presumably, as it has a school, you were in some kind of built-up area- report seeing anything similar? If not, have you considered the possibility that you misidentified something?


Souns like you saw an insect, to me. How were you able to estimate the size and distance of this object?

Are you privy to all approved flight plans, plus military flights and also the paths of overhead satellites, in your area? I assume not, in which case I have to ask, how do you know there was 'not supposed to be anything else up there'?
I can't remember details of seeing the silver disk when I was a boy, it is too long ago. But what looked like a moving star that I saw in my teens was no insect and as I said, it was in the time of sputnik one. I don't think there were any satellites.
 
I can't remember details of seeing the silver disk when I was a boy, it is too long ago. But what looked like a moving star that I saw in my teens was no insect and as I said, it was in the time of sputnik one. I don't think there were any satellites.
If it was in the time of Sputnik, it could have been any of a dozen or more satellites, assuming your memory is accurate to within a couple of years.

And don't bother trying to assure us that your memory is indeed that accurate. Without independent calibration, we have no reason to assume that your memory is that accurate at that remove.

And that's before we even get into whether you accurately remember what you saw, at that remove. Which you almost certainly do not.
 
I can't remember details of seeing the silver disk when I was a boy, it is too long ago. But what looked like a moving star that I saw in my teens was no insect and as I said, it was in the time of sputnik one. I don't think there were any satellites.
Yes, you already told us about the light in the sky you once saw and couldn't identify. In the absence of further information, no one here is going to be able to identify it either. There's any number of things it could have been, but if we start to list them you'll just manufacture a reason to dismiss each one. It's a worthless, useless anecdote.

Have you researched the other sightings from that book that you uncritically listed, to see if any of them are any more worthy of the attention of sceptics than the two we researched and debunked for you?
 
I can't remember details of seeing the silver disk when I was a boy, it is too long ago.
Yet you used this story to support the idea that aliens are here. You can't have it both ways, old chap.
Anyway, that doesn't answer my question. Let me repeat: did anyone else, either at your school, or the built-up area in which it was presumably located, report seeing what you claim you saw?
But what looked like a moving star that I saw in my teens was no insect and as I said, it was in the time of sputnik one. I don't think there were any satellites.
Are you a 'trained observer'? If not, on what grounds are you dismissing the idea that what you saw was an insect? Remember, misjudgement of size and distance is at the heart of many so-called UFO sightings.
 
No blindly accepting the least likely explanation of an event isn't the point. This is not a UFO truther site after all.
So what is the point, you omitted to tell us? If this was a UFO "truther" site, I wouldn't be posting on it.

The title of this thread is "UFO, the Research, the Evidence", I am content with that explanation of the "point", and am happy to comment on all aspects of that.
 

The Pentagon’s latest report on UFOs has revealed hundreds of new sightings of unidentified and unexplained aerial phenomena but no indications suggesting an extraterrestrial origin.

The review includes hundreds of cases of misidentified balloons, birds and satellites as well as some that defy easy explanation, such as a near-miss between a commercial airliner and a mysterious object off the coast of New York.
 
If it was in the time of Sputnik, it could have been any of a dozen or more satellites, assuming your memory is accurate to within a couple of years.

And don't bother trying to assure us that your memory is indeed that accurate. Without independent calibration, we have no reason to assume that your memory is that accurate at that remove.

And that's before we even get into whether you accurately remember what you saw, at that remove. Which you almost certainly do not.
Satellites do not stop and hover in the same place for a minute or two before moving off again. The object I saw did do this several times before disappearing from view, and that told me it was not just another star, which is what it appeared to be.
 
I have now finished the book UFOs by Leslie Kean. Despite the disparaging remarks about her that some people have made I found the book well written and full of facts and details like names and dates of events. The quality of the accounts is high, and comes from respected people like generals and governors and pilots and police officers. What it does not contain is accounts from ordinary people that can be easily dismissed. If it did the book could have been several volumes long because there have been thousands of such reports. Kean only records reliable witnesses. Here is a sample of one such witnesses account.

Setting the record straight by Fife Symington III Governor of Arizona 1991 to 1997

Between 8.00 and 8.30 on the evening of March 13th 1997 during my second term as governor of Arizona, I witnessed something that defied logic and challenged my reality: a massive delta-shaped craft silently navigating over the Squaw Peak in the Phoenix mountain preserve. A solid structure rather than an apparition, it was dramatically large, with a distinctive leading edge embedded with lights as it traveled the Arizona skies. I still don't know what it was. As a pilot and a former air force officer, I can say with certainty that this craft did not resemble any man- made object I had ever seen.

https://www.fifesymington.com/former-arizona-governor-now-admits-seeing-ufo/
 
The book UFOs by Leslie Kean was published in 2010 and in it she says the American government seems to be in denial about UFOs and may even be spreading disinformation to discredit sightings while holding data themselves. She suggests a new government office should be set up to study UFOs as they should be taken seriously. In 2022 NASA conducted a survey of UFO reports and concluded there is no evidence of Aliens being behind the phenomena, but there might be.

 
Read this next, it'll provide some much-needed balance.

You can buy it here.
 

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I take it the answer to this question ...

Have you researched the other sightings from that book that you uncritically listed, to see if any of them are any more worthy of the attention of sceptics than the two we researched and debunked for you?

... is still no, then, Scorpion?
 
The book UFOs by Leslie Kean was published in 2010 and in it she says the American government seems to be in denial about UFOs and may even be spreading disinformation to discredit sightings while holding data themselves.
Have you also considered it might be she who, deliberately or not, is spreading misinformation?
 
I did a search on Fife Symington's account before posting it. But I have not gone back over the other sightings yet.
If you'd properly researched this incident, rather than just looking for reasons to believe it, you would have found, for example, this:


According to Sheaffer, what became known as "the Phoenix Lights" incident of 1997 "consists of two unrelated incidents, although both were the result of activities of the same organization: Operation Snowbird, a pilot training program operated in the winter by the Air National Guard, out of Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson, Arizona. Tucson astronomer and retired Air Force pilot James McGaha said he also investigated the two separate sightings and traced them both to A-10 Thunderbolt II aircraft flying in formation at high altitude.

The first incident, often perceived as a large “flying triangle” by witnesses, began at approximately 8:00 pm, and was due to five A-10 jets from Operation Snowbird following an assigned air traffic corridor and flying under visual flight rules. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) rules concerning private and commercial aircraft do not apply to military aircraft, so the A-10 formation displayed steady formation lights rather than blinking collision lights. The formation flew over Phoenix and on to Tucson, landing at Davis-Monthan AFB about 8:45 pm.

The second incident, described as "a row of brilliant lights hovering in the sky, or slowly falling" began at approximately 10:00 pm, and was due to a flare drop exercise by different A-10 jets from the Maryland Air National Guard, also operating out of Davis-Monthan AFB as part of from Operation Snowbird.The U.S. Air Force explained the exercise as utilizing slow-falling, long-burning LUU-2B/B illumination flares dropped by a flight of four A-10 aircraft on a training exercise at the Barry M. Goldwater Air Force Range in western Pima County, Arizona. The flares would have been visible in Phoenix and appeared to hover due to rising heat from the burning flares creating a "balloon" effect on their parachutes, which slowed the descent.The lights then appeared to wink out as they fell behind the Sierra Estrella mountain range to the southwest of Phoenix.The lights likely appeared to block out background stars because of their brightness, making it harder to see dim objects like stars in the areas they laid out.
 
I have now finished the book UFOs by Leslie Kean. Despite the disparaging remarks about her that some people have made I found the book well written and full of facts and details like names and dates of events.
Names and dates? Then we have all the facts we need …
The quality of the accounts is high, and comes from respected people like generals and governors and pilots and police officers.
Why would that make quality high?
What it does not contain is accounts from ordinary people that can be easily dismissed.
Why can accounts from “ordinary” people be easily dismissed?
If it did the book could have been several volumes long because there have been thousands of such reports. Kean only records reliable witnesses. Here is a sample of one such witnesses account.

Setting the record straight by Fife Symington III Governor of Arizona 1991 to 1997

Between 8.00 and 8.30 on the evening of March 13th 1997 during my second term as governor of Arizona, I witnessed something that defied logic and challenged my reality: a massive delta-shaped craft silently navigating over the Squaw Peak in the Phoenix mountain preserve. A solid structure rather than an apparition, it was dramatically large, with a distinctive leading edge embedded with lights as it traveled the Arizona skies. I still don't know what it was. As a pilot and a former air force officer, I can say with certainty that this craft did not resemble any man- made object I had ever seen.

https://www.fifesymington.com/former-arizona-governor-now-admits-seeing-ufo/
What makes this account convincing for you in the light of all the confounding factors that have been mentioned here?

ETA: I see that Pixel42 immediately found a more convincing explanation. How come a trained pilot, and a governor at that, could not recognise flares?
 
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