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Trump indicted for 2020 election interference

Trump has pled not guilty.

Trump "sat stern-faced with his hands folded, shaking his head at times as he conferred with an attorney and occasionally glancing around the courtroom as his court appearance began. He stood up to enter his “not guilty” plea, answered perfunctory questions from the judge and thanked her at the conclusion of the arraignment."

https://apnews.com/article/a79f2d3683c7591058635c9b3d870070
 
acbytesla said:
You're not taking into account all those people that live in a right wing bubble. That only get their news (I'm being generous calling it news) from FOX, OAN, NEWSMAX, etc.

Remember what Paul said.

I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
Click to expand...

The refrain is quite appropriate here, too.

Lie, la Lie.
 
acbytesla said:
You're not taking into account all those people that live in a right wing bubble. That only get their news (I'm being generous calling it news) from FOX, OAN, NEWSMAX, etc.

Remember what Paul said.

I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
Click to expand...

alfaniner said:
The refrain is quite appropriate here, too.

Lie, la Lie.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
sackett said:
I've GooGooed for "a prayer to Trump," but haven't come up with one. Yet.
Click to expand...

Our MAGA, who art in Florida
Hallowed be thy name
Thy presidency come, thy whim be done
On Earth as it is within these United States of America
Give us this day our daily truths
And mock those who are weaker
As we mock those who are weaker than us
For thine is the presidency, the power and glory
For ever and ever
Amen.
 
arthwollipot said:
Our MAGA, who art in Florida
Hallowed be thy name
Thy presidency come, thy whim be done
On Earth as it is within these United States of America
Give us this day our daily truths
And mock those who are weaker
As we mock those who are weaker than us
For thine is the presidency, the power and glory
For ever and ever
Amen.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
More from Pence

President Trump was wrong in saying that I had some right to overturn the election. My duty on January wasn’t a belief, it’s the law and the history of this Country.
Click to expand...
 
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23893920/trump-indictment-2020-election.pdf

I just read the whole indictment. Trump and Co. did indeed attempt to send FAKE electoral votes to Pence, to be viewed as alternate slates of electors, which was ILLEGAL as there is a legal way to do this, and the Gov and Secr of State of each state has to sign of on this, which was not done. This was indeed election fraud.

Did Trump encourage the mob on 1/6 to go to Congress and stop their certification of Biden as the winner? Yes. It does seem that way. Even though he urged them to be peaceful (after they were violent for some time), he still urged them to go to Congress and obstruct the legal preceedings to count the only legally submitted electoral votes. Trump also repeatedly urged Pence to violate the law and the ECA, and reject the legal electoral votes on his own, which he had no authority to do.

So yeah, it seems the indictment for the fake electors, threatening the GA Secr of State and Governor, and the indictment for his actions specifically on 1/6 are legit.

He is toast.
 
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Hercules56 said:
He is toast.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Virtually guaranteed to get a firm swat on the butt with a rolled up newspaper, then back to being fellated by legions of supporters, except Melania.

We are toast.
 
Hercules56 said:
Did Trump encourage the mob on 1/6 to go to Congress and stop their certification of Biden as the winner? Yes. It does seem that way. Even though he urged them to be peaceful (after they were violent for some time)...
Click to expand...
That he wanted his mob to be peaceful is debatable.

Yes, Trump did at some points use words that sounded like he wanted non-violent action. But:

- He also used phrases like "fight like hell", and "you won't have a republican party if you don't get tougher". Phrasing like 'fight' and 'tough' are contradictory to the phrasing of 'peaceful'.

- He suggested they disconnect the metal detectors at his rallies (because "they aren't here to hurt me", hinting that he knew the crowd had weapons)

- He knew what his supporters were like (remember, once of them sent a pipe bomb to media organizers after all his "fake news" claims). "My pit bull has rabies, but I told him to sit and be good, so I can't be blamed if he attacks someone"

- He has called for violence in the past (for example telling people that if the assault protestors at his rallies he will pay for their defense). Even if he called for "peace" THIS time, some of his supporters probably remember the times where he did say "violence is good'.

- once violence DID occur he did nothing to curtail it for over an hour (no tweets asking people to pull back, no emergency new broadcast asking people to leave the capitol building, etc.) despite being urged to by multiple people. Which means that at the very least he approved of the violence while it was happening. "I didn't initially want them to beat up police but its cool that they did" isn't a very good defense.

- At the very end, after multiple police officers were assaulted, after windows were smashed and feces smeared on the walls, he told the protestors he "loved them". And he has suggested he will pardon some/all of the terrorists.
 
Segnosaur said:
That he wanted his mob to be peaceful is debatable.

Yes, Trump did at some points use words that sounded like he wanted non-violent action. But:

- He also used phrases like "fight like hell", and "you won't have a republican party if you don't get tougher". Phrasing like 'fight' and 'tough' are contradictory to the phrasing of 'peaceful'.

- He suggested they disconnect the metal detectors at his rallies (because "they aren't here to hurt me", hinting that he knew the crowd had weapons)

- He knew what his supporters were like (remember, once of them sent a pipe bomb to media organizers after all his "fake news" claims). "My pit bull has rabies, but I told him to sit and be good, so I can't be blamed if he attacks someone"

- He has called for violence in the past (for example telling people that if the assault protestors at his rallies he will pay for their defense). Even if he called for "peace" THIS time, some of his supporters probably remember the times where he did say "violence is good'.

- once violence DID occur he did nothing to curtail it for over an hour (no tweets asking people to pull back, no emergency new broadcast asking people to leave the capitol building, etc.) despite being urged to by multiple people. Which means that at the very least he approved of the violence while it was happening. "I didn't initially want them to beat up police but its cool that they did" isn't a very good defense.

- At the very end, after multiple police officers were assaulted, after windows were smashed and feces smeared on the walls, he told the protestors he "loved them". And he has suggested he will pardon some/all of the terrorists.
Click to expand...

Never has a man so obviously turbulent priested without knowing the word "turbulent".
 
Segnosaur said:
That he wanted his mob to be peaceful is debatable.

Yes, Trump did at some points use words that sounded like he wanted non-violent action. But:

- He also used phrases like "fight like hell", and "you won't have a republican party if you don't get tougher". Phrasing like 'fight' and 'tough' are contradictory to the phrasing of 'peaceful'.

- He suggested they disconnect the metal detectors at his rallies (because "they aren't here to hurt me", hinting that he knew the crowd had weapons)

- He knew what his supporters were like (remember, once of them sent a pipe bomb to media organizers after all his "fake news" claims). "My pit bull has rabies, but I told him to sit and be good, so I can't be blamed if he attacks someone"

- He has called for violence in the past (for example telling people that if the assault protestors at his rallies he will pay for their defense). Even if he called for "peace" THIS time, some of his supporters probably remember the times where he did say "violence is good'.

- once violence DID occur he did nothing to curtail it for over an hour (no tweets asking people to pull back, no emergency new broadcast asking people to leave the capitol building, etc.) despite being urged to by multiple people. Which means that at the very least he approved of the violence while it was happening. "I didn't initially want them to beat up police but its cool that they did" isn't a very good defense.

- At the very end, after multiple police officers were assaulted, after windows were smashed and feces smeared on the walls, he told the protestors he "loved them". And he has suggested he will pardon some/all of the terrorists.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately in our current ****** political discourse, terms like "fight" are very often metaphors for strong aggressive non-violent action. I think Trump has some plausible deniability regarding accusations that he literally called for violence.

He can claim that he meant he wanted folks to go into the Senate chamber and demand that he me made President, or that the electoral votes be sent back to the states, or that the 6 states get debates by Congress, etc, without violence. Just yelling and screaming and peaceful pressure. Which is of course illegal as its illegal to disrupt the electoral count process.
 
Hercules56 said:
Unfortunately in our current ****** political discourse, terms like "fight" are very often metaphors for strong aggressive non-violent action. I think Trump has some plausible deniability regarding accusations that he literally called for violence.

He can claim that he meant he wanted folks to go into the Senate chamber and demand that he me made President, or that the electoral votes be sent back to the states, or that the 6 states get debates by Congress, etc, without violence. Just yelling and screaming and peaceful pressure. Which is of course illegal as its illegal to disrupt the electoral count process.
Click to expand...

What’s the alternative interpretation of “fight like hell” when said to a mob just before directing them to the Capitol where an election certification they’ve been told is fraudulent is taking place?
 
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Hercules56 said:
Unfortunately in our current ****** political discourse, terms like "fight" are very often metaphors for strong aggressive non-violent action. I think Trump has some plausible deniability regarding accusations that he literally called for violence.

He can claim that he meant he wanted folks to go into the Senate chamber and demand that he me made President, or that the electoral votes be sent back to the states, or that the 6 states get debates by Congress, etc, without violence. Just yelling and screaming and peaceful pressure. Which is of course illegal as its illegal to disrupt the electoral count process.
Click to expand...
First of all, how words like 'fight' are interpreted will depend on context. As I said before, his supporters have been known to engage in violence in the past, (and Trump himself has encouraged it as well), so the word 'fight' will be taken in a different light than if (for example) an Amish person uses it.

Secondly, it seems like you have ignored other points I made... in particular how he failed to react to the violence once it started and how he told the terrorists he loved them. That indicates an approval for their violent actions (If he really did want things to remain peaceful, he should have jumped on twitter the moment the first window was broken with a "Cool it guys, that's not what I wanted".)
 
Hercules56 said:
Unfortunately in our current ****** political discourse, terms like "fight" are very often metaphors for strong aggressive non-violent action. I think Trump has some plausible deniability regarding accusations that he literally called for violence.

He can claim that he meant he wanted folks to go into the Senate chamber and demand that he me made President, or that the electoral votes be sent back to the states, or that the 6 states get debates by Congress, etc, without violence. Just yelling and screaming and peaceful pressure. Which is of course illegal as its illegal to disrupt the electoral count process.
Click to expand...

I can cherry pick too. Violent or not from that speech alone it's a mixed message at best.

Turn off the metal detectors, they aren't after me.

And the clincher, waiting almost 3 hours to put a stop to it.

Oh, and there was a purposeful effort to limit police backup IIRC from the committee testimony.
 
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I wonder, will the DOJ witnesses include the guys who, in their own Jan 6 trials, testified that the reason they went into the Capitol building is because Trump told them to?

We can debate over what he said and stuff, but if the question is whether his words incited people to riot, we actually already have testimony from federal court that says they did.
 
johnny karate said:
What’s the alternative interpretation of “fight like hell” when said to a mob just before directing them to the Capitol where an election certification they’ve been told is fraudulent is taking place?
Click to expand...

You know very well that "fight like hell" need not be taken literally to mean "punch and kick".
 
Hercules56 said:
You know very well that "fight like hell" need not be taken literally to mean "punch and kick".
Click to expand...

In the abstract, yes. But we’re talking about a very specific context. In that context, what is the non-violent interpretation?
 
Hercules56 said:
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23893920/trump-indictment-2020-election.pdf

I just read the whole indictment. Trump and Co. did indeed attempt to send FAKE electoral votes to Pence, to be viewed as alternate slates of electors, which was ILLEGAL as there is a legal way to do this, and the Gov and Secr of State of each state has to sign of on this, which was not done. This was indeed election fraud.

Did Trump encourage the mob on 1/6 to go to Congress and stop their certification of Biden as the winner? Yes. It does seem that way. Even though he urged them to be peaceful (after they were violent for some time), he still urged them to go to Congress and obstruct the legal preceedings to count the only legally submitted electoral votes. Trump also repeatedly urged Pence to violate the law and the ECA, and reject the legal electoral votes on his own, which he had no authority to do.

So yeah, it seems the indictment for the fake electors, threatening the GA Secr of State and Governor, and the indictment for his actions specifically on 1/6 are legit.

He is toast.
Click to expand...

Does not matter if it was peaceful. He was attempting to defraud the electorate. The people that voted for the other guy. Including me. He attempted to defraud me.

I actually think if anything we are taking this far, FAR, less seriously. Because its Trump, and he's been spouting crazy ass terrible BS since before he was elected in 2016. If this had happened in isolation, back in more normal times, I think whoever did it would be already be in prison. But he's conditioned us to accept a level of crazy we never did before.
 
johnny karate said:
In the abstract, yes. But we’re talking about a very specific context. In that context, what is the non-violent interpretation?
Click to expand...

Verbally and emotionally "fight like hell" to get the Congress to not accept the electoral count of the 6 states. Yell, scream, protest, sit on the Senate chamber floor and have a hissy fit.

Or Trump could finally explain what EXACTLY he wanted his protestors to do.
 
Hercules56 said:
Verbally and emotionally "fight like hell" to get the Congress to not accept the electoral count of the 6 states. Yell, scream, protest, sit on the Senate chamber floor and have a hissy fit.

Or Trump could finally explain what EXACTLY he wanted his protestors to do.
Click to expand...

And how were these people supposed to get into the Senate chamber - where they were not legally allowed and was guarded by law enforcement - non-violently?
 
dudalb said:
I just think Democracy in the US is a lot toughter then a lot of people here think.
Click to expand...
Perhaps, and we don’t want to find out where its breaking point actually is.
 
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acbytesla said:
Trump is a religion?
Click to expand...

Our Trump who art the REAL President,

hallowed be thy name.

Thy dictatorship come.

Thy will be done 
in Washington DC as it is on the Left Coast. 

Give us this day our daily crumbs, 

and forgive us our doubts about all your lies, boorishness, unindicted crimes, indictments, fines, and convictions,

as we never forgive those who trespass against us, 

and lead us not into democracy, 

but deliver us from classic liberalism.

For thine is the Administration
and the power,
and the glory, 

forever and ever.

Fake news.
 
arthwollipot said:
Our MAGA, who art in Florida
Hallowed be thy name
Thy presidency come, thy whim be done
On Earth as it is within these United States of America
Give us this day our daily truths
And mock those who are weaker
As we mock those who are weaker than us
For thine is the presidency, the power and glory
For ever and ever
Amen.
Click to expand...

Ninja’ed! Rats. Combine our two and we’d have one solid contribution.
 
johnny karate said:
Verbally and emotionally "fight like hell" to get the Congress to not accept the electoral count of the 6 states. Yell, scream, protest, sit on the Senate chamber floor and have a hissy fit.
Click to expand...
And how were these people supposed to get into the Senate chamber - where they were not legally allowed and was guarded by law enforcement - non-violently?
Click to expand...
Couldn't the protestors just tell the police to "stand down"?

(I have seen people claim that the January 6th terrorists weren't guilty because "they told police to stand down", a claim that is as dumb as it sounds.)
 
Hercules56 said:
You know very well that "fight like hell" need not be taken literally to mean "punch and kick".
Click to expand...
And as I pointed out before... How a person will take a phrase like 'fight like hell' depends on context.

A group of people beholden to Trump, many of whom had engaged in violence before, and who had chanted "hang mike pence" are more likely going to take words like 'fight' to mean "punch and kick" than your average non MAGAchud..

Hercules56 said:
Verbally and emotionally "fight like hell" to get the Congress to not accept the electoral count of the 6 states. Yell, scream, protest, sit on the Senate chamber floor and have a hissy fit.
Click to expand...
As another poster pointed out... how exactly were they supposed to accomplish his goal of "stopping the count" WITHOUT violence. The room where the votes were counted had limited access. Yelling and screaming would not likely have been heard. And they could not get in to sit on the senate floor without breaking past the police.
Or Trump could finally explain what EXACTLY he wanted his protestors to do.
Click to expand...
The fact that Trump told the terrorists he "loved them" AFTER they had assaulted police, broke windows, and smeared feces on the walls of the capitol, is a pretty good indication that the protestors were doing exactly what he wanted them to do.
 
Trump deliberately couched his speech in terms that would give him plausible deniability. "Fight like hell", as pointed out, can be interpreted as figurative and literal which is why he used it. Arguing over what he 'really' meant is a waste of time. He wasn't charged with 'inciting a riot' because he made no clear and overt statements of promoting or calling for violence. We can believe, as I do, that his intention was for the crowd to do exactly what they did, but it cannot be proved BARD due to the wording he so carefully used.


"(b) As used in this chapter, the term "to incite a riot", or "to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot", includes, but is not limited to, urging or instigating other persons to riot, but shall not be deemed to mean the mere oral or written (1) advocacy of ideas or (2) expression of belief, not involving advocacy of any act or acts of violence or assertion of the rightness of, or the right to commit, any such act or acts.
(18 USC Ch. 102: RIOTS
From Title 18—CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE)
 
Trump says the government is interfering with elections. His electing himself back. What about the rest of us? Trump voters are only 40%.

He should have thought of that while he could still make himself a dictator.
 
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Tero said:
Trump says the government is interfering with elections. His electing himself back. What about the rest of us? Trump voters are only 40%.

He should have thought of that while he could still make himself a dictator.
Click to expand...

The two Federal indictments would have come months or even years earlier if Trump didn't stall the process with constant motions to stop witness testimony due to Executive Privilege and other failed legal schemes to muck up the process.
 
Point 87 of the indictment document has Trump repeatedly urging his supporters in late December to go to Washington on Jan 6 to protest the "stolen election". "Will be wild".

The "fight like hell" is not a lone item, which is good for the prosecution.
 
For the Conspiracy Charge, it's perfectly sufficient to show that his speech was in furtherance of his efforts to pressure Pence and Representatives into illegally stopping the certification, through intimidation and/or violence.

It is not necessary to show that Trump wanted them to hang Pence.
 
Orphia Nay said:
Point 87 of the indictment document has Trump repeatedly urging his supporters in late December to go to Washington on Jan 6 to protest the "stolen election". "Will be wild".

The "fight like hell" is not a lone item, which is good for the prosecution.
Click to expand...

Yes, there's also "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."
 
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