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Split Thread Trump Document indictment (as opposed to other indictments)

lobosrul5 said:
Or asks them to participate in a defense strategy that will likely result in their disbarment.
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I would probably include that in my "won't listen to their advice" part, but yeah.

It's like how Sovereign Citizens can never find lawyers to represent them.
 
dirtywick said:
he's about as smart as i thought. anyway, he did the same with michael cohen so this shouldn't be surprising either. just more of the same.
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Did you hear his response to finding out that lawyers kept notes about meetings? He was completely flabbergasted that they would do that!

He says, Michael Cohen never took notes.....

(I'm serious - see Legal Eagle's new video)

Of course, where did that get Michael Cohen?
 
pgwenthold said:
Lawyers have no problem defending someone who they know is guilty, even when they are guilty as hell of the most vile acts. As professionals, they know they have a job to do, and they do their best to do it well. Everyone deserves a fair trial.

What they won't defend is a client who won't listen to them, follow their advice, or pay them.
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I think it probably depend on the lawyer.

I am sure some lawyers will gladly defend someone where a conviction is likely. But others probably do consider their win/loss record. And yet others may evaluate a combination of factors... the chance of winning combined with the difficulty of him as a client.
 
Segnosaur said:
Which is of course another issue with incarcerating Trump... they may need to increase oversight of the guards to prevent them from giving him any sort of special treatment.... slipping him a contraband cell phone, passing messages on to his minions outside the prison, etc.
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As has been pointed out already, these are all fairly common issues in max security prisons.

I expect the average high ranking crime boss has plenty of money (possibly more than Trump) and access to plenty of minions, all of whom are bound to be far more competent than any of Trump's.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Thermal said:
Owing their position for their appointments and loyalty to the party's wishes can be analogized to owing money without too much of a stretch?
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No, since they are appointed for life. The people who appointed them may *think* they are owed loyalty, but the SCOTUS judge does not need to actually "pay them back" to keep their position.
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And it is amusing to imagine that a Repugnican would expect loyalty and a sense of obligation from other Repugnicans. SCOTUS Justices especially. They've got their cushy seat for life, and it isn't like a Repugnican Congress is going to kick any of them out just for doing what all the rest of them do every day. I.e., dodge their promises and obligations.
 
quadraginta said:
As has been pointed out already, these are all fairly common issues in max security prisons.

I expect the average high ranking crime boss has plenty of money (possibly more than Trump) and access to plenty of minions, all of whom are bound to be far more competent than any of Trump's.
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Sadly I find myself wondering how corrupt USA prisons are given the corruption in other branches of the law and justice system.
 
quadraginta said:
Which is of course another issue with incarcerating Trump... they may need to increase oversight of the guards to prevent them from giving him any sort of special treatment.... slipping him a contraband cell phone, passing messages on to his minions outside the prison, etc.
Click to expand...
As has been pointed out already, these are all fairly common issues in max security prisons.

I expect the average high ranking crime boss has plenty of money (possibly more than Trump) and access to plenty of minions, all of whom are bound to be far more competent than any of Trump's.
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A mob boss may have competent minions, but he won't have as many as Stubby McBonespurs, nor are they as likely to be as dedicated. (Not to mention the incompetence of many of Trump's cult will add to the complexity.)

Plus, as I mentioned before, assigning Stubby McBonespurs to a supermax prison will probably result in a legal challenge... "He's not a violent offender... he shouldn't be housed with murders, etc."

Now I want to stress I am not defending Trump, nor am I suggesting he shouldn't be incarcerated. (I think based on the evidence we already know about, he can and should spend the rest of his life in prison.) I am just recognizing that housing him will be slightly different than other criminals. Nothing insurmountable, just... different.
 
smartcooky said:
There are no overwhelming logistical problems with keeping The Fat Orange Turd in prison. He's just an ordinary citizen, no different to a mob boss.

[snip]
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Agreed.

ADX Florence CO would be the ideal place to incarcerate The Fat Orange Turd.

ADX Florence was commissioned when the Federal Bureau of Prisons needed a unit designed specifically for the secure housing of those prisoners most capable of extreme violence toward staff or other inmates. As of June 2023, there are a total of 316 inmates housed. They are confined 23 hours per day in single cells with facilities made of poured, reinforced concrete to deter self-harm, and are under 24-hour supervision, carried out intensively with high staff–inmate ratios.​

Its in the middle of nowhere, deterring all but the hardiest of his MAGA morons from going there to protest
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Also agree. The perfect place to keep him.

... and there is even a spare cell now as Ted Kaczynski (The Unabomber) snuffed it a couple of days ago!

[snip]
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Um, about that last part.

Ted hasn't been there for a year and a half. They transferred him to a Federal prison hospital in Butner, NC. (About fifteen miles from where I'm typing this.)

Not exactly desolate.

500px-FMC_Butner.jpg
 
Segnosaur said:
A mob boss may have competent minions, but he won't have as many as Stubby McBonespurs, nor are they as likely to be as dedicated. (Not to mention the incompetence of many of Trump's cult will add to the complexity.)

[snip]
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I have trouble seeing his MAGAchud supporters as 'minions'.

More like camp followers.

Walt Nauta. Now there's a minion you can respect.
 
quadraginta said:
A mob boss may have competent minions, but he won't have as many as Stubby McBonespurs, nor are they as likely to be as dedicated. (Not to mention the incompetence of many of Trump's cult will add to the complexity.)
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I have trouble seeing his MAGAchud supporters as 'minions'.

More like camp followers.
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Minions, cult members, hanger-ons, allies who support him (who are just trying to use him), I think Trump has them all. And he has more of each type than a mob boss might have. And the cult members are absolutely more dedicated to the fantasy of Trump than anyone will have to a mob boss.

If a mob boss says "I've been unfairly treated... storm the court house" I doubt he would get any cult followers to join in. With Trump there is a real danger of that happening. (Most MAGAchud are incompetent but they can still cause problems o'plenty.)
 
Tero said:
There are not really any commands to quote other than "Hang Mike pence" and the like. Everything was pretty much in the public rallies. There is no conspiracy to dig up. His mere suggestion did the trick.

Is Trump responsible for the actions of his hard core followers?
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I'm not sure this is true. Definitely a more difficult prosecution.

I have absolutely no doubt there was a conspiracy that Trump engineered. But he did it in his way allowing and encouraging others to get their hands dirty. Trump is an expert in creating plausible deniability.

Trump should definitely go to prison for January 6th. More for this crime than any of the hundreds he certainly committed. But actually convicting him of it appears to be substantially more difficult.
 
quadraginta said:
Agreed.




Also agree. The perfect place to keep him.




Um, about that last part.

Ted hasn't been there for a year and a half. They transferred him to a Federal prison hospital in Butner, NC. (About fifteen miles from where I'm typing this.)

Not exactly desolate.

[qimg]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/FMC_Butner.jpg/500px-FMC_Butner.jpg[/qimg]
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hate to burst your bubble, but there's zero reason to believe Trump would be doing any time in a high security facility. He'd be off in Club Fed with all the other nonviolent offenders.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
hate to burst your bubble, but there's zero reason to believe Trump would be doing any time in a high security facility. He'd be off in Club Fed with all the other nonviolent offenders.
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He will be in a minimum security prison or under house arrest.

I'm willing to bet money.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
hate to burst your bubble, but there's zero reason to believe Trump would be doing any time in a high security facility. He'd be off in Club Fed with all the other nonviolent offenders.
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I never said or intimated that he would. I just agreed that that is a great place for him to be locked up.

I don't expect it, but it wouldn't bother me if he was.

'For his own protection', of course.
 
Segnosaur said:
I think it probably depend on the lawyer.

I am sure some lawyers will gladly defend someone where a conviction is likely. But others probably do consider their win/loss record. And yet others may evaluate a combination of factors... the chance of winning combined with the difficulty of him as a client.
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Sure, there are those lawyers who specialize in prosecution defense. Just as there are those who are prosecutors. And those who are contract lawyers. And those who only do Time Share accounting. Of course those wouldn't be representing Trump in defense of a criminal prosecution and has nothing to do with whether they think he is guilty or innocent.
 
Darat said:
You missed the biggest negative - he was interviewing them. I have a good imagination but even I struggle to imagine those interviews. I am sure they were pleased to learn that he has the finest legal mind on the planet....
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- Nobody knows tarts like I do.

- That’s, er, torts, Mr. President.

- Those too.
 
All this incessant coverage blowing everything else of the news cycle (these 24 hours or so), and there is actually nothing new to talk about. We won't even be able to see anything until after The FPDJT leaves the location.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
hate to burst your bubble, but there's zero reason to believe Trump would be doing any time in a high security facility. He'd be off in Club Fed with all the other nonviolent offenders.
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What makes you think he's a nonviolent offender? Trump continues to threaten the DOJ and the attorneys.
 
I wasted a few minutes watching the motorcade from Doral to the courthouse. More reporters there than protesters. No violence, just some fat clown in a prison uniform costume ran out into the street and quickly got dragged away.
 
acbytesla said:
What makes you think he's a nonviolent offender? Trump continues to threaten the DOJ and the attorneys.
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The crime in which he is likely to be convicted for, is non-violent. That his incitement to riot on January 6 is indeed morally wrong, but almost certainly not illegal within the jurisdiction of the US has been discussed elsewhere.

Hell IMO Kari Lake should've been arrested and charged for her comments the other day, but legally she's not guilty.
 
acbytesla said:
What makes you think he's a nonviolent offender? Trump continues to threaten the DOJ and the attorneys.
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He's not necessarily engaging in violence himself.... he's directing others to do it.

Now, that is itself a serious issue that has to be addressed. But its not necessarily something that would require a supermax facility to stop.

The Great Zaganza said:
and he attacked a secret service agent on Jan 6th
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He probably did. The problem is, they would probably have to gather some evidence over that... have the agent file a complaint, or have a witness come forward. Sticking him in supermax because "a witness heard second hand that he attacked someone" might result in a court challenge.
 
Hercules56 said:
I am fascinated that the most damning evidence and testimony of the case comes from Trump's OWN lawyers!!!!

Only a buffoon would try to entangle his lawyers in criminal activity, thereby killing his attorney-client privilege.

Trump is not as smart as we thought.
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You mean he's even thicker than a dead goldfish than I thought he was?
 
Reports of the Miami crowd are pretty underwhelming, something like 20-30 MAGA freaks showing up to protest their leader being getting prosecuted. Cops and press well outnumbering the crowds.

Consistent with a real lack of energy in the post Jan6 MAGA space. Kinda seems like everyone took the lesson of all the die-hard Trump footsoldiers getting hoovered up by the feds to heart. Trump seems to have burned a lot of resources on that dud and these later showings are much more sedate.

Not to say that the reactionary right isn't still extremely active and belligerent, but they seem to have mostly focused on non-Trump issues like menacing outside drag shows or making thinly veiled threats at school board meetings, which are admittedly much softer targets that don't result in much police response.

"One of the most striking things that stuck out about January 6 that we're not seeing now are logistical and tactical maps of buildings, facilities, areas, exit routes," said Benjamin Decker, CEO of Memetica, a threat intelligence group.

Decker said violent rhetoric on fringe platforms such as far-right Telegram channels, 4chan, Gab, Truth Social, Gettr and Patriots.win has spiked since Trump's indictment last week. He said it has been particularly concerning to see some of this language targeting Attorney General Merrick Garland and special counsel Jack Smith. But he said the appetite to participate in a mass, in-person event is muted.

"There is a lot of paranoia among Trump supporters about getting arrested," he said. "And the cost of arrest and potential jail time, that's still going to deter people ... who may be on the fence about being there to exercise their First Amendment rights or being there to participate in mob violence."
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https://www.npr.org/2023/06/12/1181773055/trump-court-appearance-tuesday-miami-extremism

Edit: But to play devil's advocate, it's also 30 C and 80% humidity in Miami today, so standing around in the Florida sun hooting and hollering on asphalt probably isn't an attractive offer.
 
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A toddler who has thrown themselves on the floor of the Target because you won't buy them a Turbo Man action figure and is kicking and screaming isn't deploying some well thought out 4 dimension chess thinking 8 steps ahead Machiavellian strategy. Still sucks to have to deal with one. There's still no quick and easy way out of that situation.

Most crime is stupid. For every master criminal doing a diamond vault heist there's a hundred dullards stealing pension checks. It's just weird to see that dynamic in high level government crime.

But if crime being stupid made it easy to counter/deal with/prosecute the world would be a much better place.

No, Trump is not "smart." That isn't making the situation we are in anymore easy to get out of.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
A toddler who has thrown themselves on the floor of the Target because you won't buy them a Turbo Man action figure and is kicking and screaming isn't deploying some well thought out 4 dimension chess thinking 8 steps ahead Machiavellian strategy. Still sucks to have to deal with one. There's still no quick and easy way out of that situation.

Most crime is stupid. For every master criminal doing a diamond vault heist there's a hundred dullards stealing pension checks. It's just weird to see that dynamic in high level government crime.

But if crime being stupid made it easy to counter/deal with/prosecute the world would be a much better place.

Not Trump is not "smart." That isn't making the situation we are in anymore easy to get out of.
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Especially in this case, because there doesn't really seem to have been any good reason for him to take this crap with him. It's still not exactly clear what he intended to do with them. At least the Jan6 schemes were understandable in motive, as hare-brained as they were in execution.

Of all the crap he did in office, it's pretty funny that this 100% unforced error is probably the most likely thing to stick to him. I know we're still waiting for a possible indictment out of Georgia for trying to fudge the election results there, but the criminal case in this documents thing seems a much straighter and simpler path for prosecutors.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
Reports of the Miami crowd are pretty underwhelming, something like 20-30 MAGA freaks showing up to protest their leader being getting prosecuted. Cops and press well outnumbering the crowds.

Consistent with a real lack of energy in the post Jan6 MAGA space. Kinda seems like everyone took the lesson of all the die-hard Trump footsoldiers getting hoovered up by the feds to heart. Trump seems to have burned a lot of resources on that dud and these later showings are much more sedate.

Not to say that the reactionary right isn't still extremely active and belligerent, but they seem to have mostly focused on non-Trump issues like menacing outside drag shows or making thinly veiled threats at school board meetings, which are admittedly much softer targets that don't result in much police response.



https://www.npr.org/2023/06/12/1181773055/trump-court-appearance-tuesday-miami-extremism

Edit: But to play devil's advocate, it's also 30 C and 80% humidity in Miami today, so standing around in the Florida sun hooting and hollering on asphalt probably isn't an attractive offer.
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Mouthing off on Parlor is fun, and easy. Traveling to Florida to stand around, probably not even see their grand poobah, storm a US Federal building and get shot to death is... hard, and probably not as much fun as one would think.
 
Seems Trump's fake lawyer failed to argue how and why Trump is guilty of the charges against him. Just yelled about unfair treatment.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Mouthing off on Parlor is fun, and easy. Traveling to Florida to stand around, probably not even see their grand poobah, storm a US Federal building and get shot to death is... hard, and probably not as much fun as one would think.
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Sure, but prior to Jan6 there was a fair number of people willing to risk it all for their God-King. A lot of them got locked up as a direct result of attending, and those that didn't for whatever reason probably have had a bit of reassessment on how far exactly they are willing to go.

I don't think it gets stressed enough that these little mini riots were happening in a lot of places prior to Jan 6, and in many cases local cops were turning a blind eye towards, if not outright collaborating with, these fascist street brawlers. Jan 6 actually resulting in intense police attention (admittedly only after the fact) was very much not the norm for these people who had not unreasonably come to expect total impunity for their political violence.

At least when the feds are involved, the CHUDs have learned painfully to mind their manners.
 
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TurkeysGhost said:
On account that he's not, nor ever has, been charged with a violent crime.
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There are a lot of things which Trump (and many others) have done which they have never been charged with.

That only means that there wasn't enough admissible evidence for an indictment, and they got away with it.

This is easier the more money you have.

As they say, "... all the justice you can afford."
 
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