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Split Thread Trump Document indictment (as opposed to other indictments)

Norman Alexander said:
Question for our legal beagles: Can Smith have Cannon removed as judge in this case, and have it reassigned to a competent justice? If so, how, and on what grounds?
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Yes. But it is extremely difficult. The 11tb Circuit Court is very conservative. But they overrode her once already. Not exactly sure how it is done. Only that the 11th Circuit has the authority to remove her from the case.
 
He has to be careful, but Cannon is being extremely careless with highly classified information, so I think he has a decent chance to, at the least, have the Circuit Court give Cannon a slap on the wrist for not following standard procedure in cases like this.
 
I imagine that deliberately revealing "official" state classified information knowing it to be restricted will lead Judge Cannon to face arrest and prosecution for same.

Yes...?? YES?!!
 
Norman Alexander said:
I imagine that deliberately revealing "official" state classified information knowing it to be restricted will lead Judge Cannon to face arrest and prosecution for same.

Yes...?? YES?!!
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I don't think the judge is releasing classified information. Jack Smith asked for redactions of witness names, which Cannon stupidly said should be made public.
 
Norman Alexander said:
I imagine that deliberately revealing "official" state classified information knowing it to be restricted will lead Judge Cannon to face arrest and prosecution for same.

Yes...?? YES?!!
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As was poked at a little earlier in the thread, Trump's lawyers made a bunch of protected information public as they petitioned for the rest to be made public. Cannon was amenable to such under nonsense pretenses. Jack Smith obviously opposes strongly, on solid grounds.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Question for our legal beagles: Can Smith have Cannon removed as judge in this case, and have it reassigned to a competent justice? If so, how, and on what grounds?
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Removal of federal district court judges from cases is governed by 28 U.S.C. § 144 and § 455. The former provides for a litigant to move for disqualification. The latter provides for a judge to recuse herself.

Procedurally, you move the district court for the judge to disqualify herself and supply evidence in support. If the judge denies the motion, it is appealed to the circuit court of appeals on an interlocutory basis. If the appeals court finds that the motion supports removal, they issue a writ of mandamus ordering the district judge to recuse herself, whereupon the circuit's procedure for reassignment under recusal rules comes into force.

The grounds for removal given in § 144 are that the judge "has a personal bias or prejudice either against [the movant] or in favor of any adverse party." There is a pile of federal case law that shapes what that means. I can go into it more if there is interest.

Obviously such motions should be made carefully. There is a timeliness requirement, so that you can't wait until the trial is going badly for you to decide to challenge the judge's impartiality. You have to file your motion soon after you became aware of the evidence of bias. Conversely, you can file only one motion to disqualify in a trial, so it had better be a really good one.

Special Counsel Smith could be laying the groundwork for a motion to disqualify, but he will probably want to accumulate more evidence before he does so. Having Judge Cannon's appointment of a special master overturned by the 11th Circuit doesn't qualify as bias. S.C. Smith arguing in favor of a "clear error" in her ruling regarding the witness list still doesn't qualify. You need a pretty strong record of questionable or overturned decisions—all in Trump's favor—before you can take your one shot.
 
Aridas said:
As was poked at a little earlier in the thread, Trump's lawyers made a bunch of protected information public as they petitioned for the rest to be made public. Cannon was amenable to such under nonsense pretenses. Jack Smith obviously opposes strongly, on solid grounds.
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If any other US citizen deliberately revealed legally restricted or state secure information, how long before the appropriate authorities leap out of a van SWAT-like at their front door and drag them away? If so, how does Cannon get a free pass?
 
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Norman Alexander said:
If any other US citizen deliberately revealed legally restricted or state secure information, how long before the appropriate authorities leap out of a van SWAT-like at their front door and drag them away? If so, how does Cannon get a free pass?
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It's the fiction that political appointees will become magically objective and neutral if you shield them from any consequences.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
It's the fiction that political appointees will become magically objective and neutral if you shield them from any consequences.
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That's not what I asked. Step by step:

I would expect that publicly revealing state secure information is illegal in the USA. I understand this is why Julian Assange continues to face extradition: to face such charges.

Part of the Mar-a-Lago case before Cannon involves the Trump team request to reveal redacted secure information recovered from Mar-a-Lago in the FBI raid.

The Trump team snarkily submitted that request with some of the redacted information in unredacted form, i.e. in violation of US security rules. This has now gone on the record for the case, making the info public. It also included potential jury member details, also a violation of privacy opening them up to harassment by Trumpists.

Smith has promptly asked for all this stuff to be sealed, in order to maintain proper security, and also to prevent jury-harassment and tampering.

By rights, Cannon should have done this the instant the submissions were made. But she has not. The information remains on the record and extant in public, as far as I can work out.

Thus my contention: Cannon has aided and abetted the unsealing of state secure information, plus private jury member details. The former is a clear breach of US security laws. The latter, a breach of privacy and profoundly against all good courtroom procedures.

Given these are illegal, or at least a dereliction of her duties, Cannon should not only be removed from the case, she should also be facing legal consequences.

My question above was: If any ordinary Joe has done this (e.g. Assange, again), arrest and charges would follow swiftly. So why have they not for Cannon?
 
"Witness #5" in the documents case has gone public.

Exclusive: ‘Trump Employee 5,’ who unknowingly helped move classified documents, speaks out

A longtime Mar-a-Lago employee who is a central witness in the investigation into former President Donald Trump's handling of classified documents is now speaking out publicly because he believes that voters should hear the truth about his former boss and the case before the November election.

Brian Butler, who is referenced as “Trump Employee 5” in the classified documents indictment brought by special counsel Jack Smith, told CNN in an exclusive interview that he doesn’t believe the criminal case against Trump is a “witch hunt,” as the former president has claimed.

Butler gave testimony to federal investigators that informed crucial portions of last year’s criminal obstruction charges against Trump and his two co-defendants, Walt Nauta, a personal aide to Trump, and Carlos De Oliveira, a property manager at Mar-a-Lago who had been Butler’s closest friend until recently.
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Butler told CNN how he unknowingly helped Nauta deliver boxes of classified information from Mar-a-Lago to the former president’s plane in June 2022 – the same day that Trump and his attorney were meeting with the Justice Department at Mar-a-Lago about the classified documents.
That day, June 3, 2022, Butler received what he remembers as a strange request from Nauta, who wanted to know if he could borrow an Escalade from the car service Butler ran for Mar-a-Lago. Trump and his family were about to fly to New Jersey that day for the summer, and it was typically Butler and his valets who handled getting their luggage onto the plane.

But it was an unusual request from Nauta for the car, Butler says, because Nauta typically didn’t handle moving luggage and asked Butler for the car in a guarded way.

Butler says Nauta and De Oliveira loaded up the vehicle before driving it to the West Palm Beach airport. Butler arrived with his own car filled with Trump family luggage, then helped Nauta load Trump’s plane with the luggage – as well as bankers boxes of documents that were in the Escalade. Butler says he didn’t realize the bankers boxes contained anything out of the ordinary.
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“They were the boxes that were in the indictment, the white bankers boxes. That’s what I remember loading,” Butler added.
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Butler also testified to hearing Trump discussing classified information with an Australian billionaire:

At one point in his interviews, Butler says he told investigators that Australian billionaire Anthony Pratt repeated classified submarine secrets following a conversation with Trump in spring 2021.
Pratt met with Trump and heard from the former president about US and Russian submarines at their meeting, then relayed that information to his chief of staff while in the backseat of Butler’s car. Butler later told investigators he was shocked that Trump would share such information with a foreign citizen who paid excessive sums for access to Mar-a-Lago.
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jrhowell said:
Forgot the smiley. Still, how can anyone who has worked for Trump for more than one day be shocked that he would betray his country to make points with his social circle.
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Some people choose to look away until they can no longer do so in good conscience. Others, have no good conscience so can continue on...
 
Judge Aileen Cannon seems to be getting a tad fed up with trump. Comments she made at today's hearing from the CNN link posted by William Parcher:
The morning session was focused on Trump’s argument that the law prohibiting the unlawful retention of national defense information was too ambiguous to be applied to his alleged conduct. Cannon said it would be an “extraordinary step” for her to throw out those charges on the basis that they were unconstitutionally vague. “You understand, of course, that finding a statute unconstitutionally vague is an extraordinary step,” she told Trump attorney Emile Bove.

The judge was similarly skeptical of the second Trump request being argued Thursday: that, because he has supposedly unlimited power to decide which documents from his White House were personal, the case against him should be dismissed...But, she repeatedly suggested, their argument hinged on facts that were still in dispute and thus were not an appropriate basis for dismissing the indictment.

The judge repeatedly said Thursday that some of Trump’s arguments are best suited for a jury to decide during his eventual trial. CNN news report 're-linked'
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newyorkguy said:
Judge Aileen Cannon seems to be getting a tad fed up with trump.
The morning session was focused on Trump’s argument that the law prohibiting the unlawful retention of national defense information was too ambiguous to be applied to his alleged conduct. Cannon said it would be an “extraordinary step” for her to throw out those charges on the basis that they were unconstitutionally vague. “You understand, of course, that finding a statute unconstitutionally vague is an extraordinary step,” she told Trump attorney Emile Bove.

The judge was similarly skeptical of the second Trump request being argued Thursday: that, because he has supposedly unlimited power to decide which documents from his White House were personal, the case against him should be dismissed...But, she repeatedly suggested, their argument hinged on facts that were still in dispute and thus were not an appropriate basis for dismissing the indictment.

The judge repeatedly said Thursday that some of Trump’s arguments are best suited for a jury to decide during his eventual trial. CNN news report 're-linked'
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Comments she made at today's hearing from the CNN link posted by William Parcher:
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I'm sorry, I don't trust Cannon.

I feel like she attempts on occasions to appear as if she is not biased, yet she continues to run a court that is constantly treading water. I see no signs that she is ever going to hold a trial.
 
Under 44 U.S.C. §§ 2201(2), 2201(3), and 2203(b) the President does not have unlimited or unfettered authority to designate personal records. First, the criteria for categorization are given in statute. The President or his staff merely applies them, and there is little room for discretion. More specifically, it is fundamentally impossible for a document classified according to the classification system for official documents to be a personal document under § 2201(3). Trump might just as well be trying to say that he personally owns Air Force One.

Second, the categorization occurs when the document is created or received, not later when the President decides he wants to keep them. The categorization is supposed to be maintained by separate filing. The fact that obviously official documents were found at Mar-a-Lago interspersed with obviously personal effects is res ipsa loquitur proof of violation of § 2203(b). These are strict liability crimes.
 
Cannon “rejected one bid by Donald Trump to throw out out his classified documents criminal case, and appeared skeptical during hours of arguments of a separate effort to scuttle the prosecution ahead of trial.”

“U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon issued a two-page order saying that though the Trump team had raised “various arguments warranting serious consideration,” a dismissal of charges was not merited. The case involves boxes of records, some highly classified, that Trump took to his Mar-a-Lago estate when he left the White House.”

https://apnews.com/article/200d4c73d7c7dd75d9c9d878b77d05ce

“But it left unanswered questions over when the case might proceed to trial and only covered one of the two motions argued in court on Thursday. A separate motion about whether Trump was permitted under the Presidential Records Act to retain the documents after he left the White House remains pending, but the judge also seemed disinclined to throw out the case on those grounds.

““It’s difficult to see how this gets you to the dismissal of an indictment,” she told a Trump lawyer.”
 
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Delaying tactics by Cannon in cahoots with Trump.

"Look, I did something (actually nothing) , and now I have to think about it for another 3 months."
 
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The Great Zaganza said:
Delaying tactics by Cannon in cahoots with Trump.

"Look, I did something (actually nothing) , and now I have to think about it for another 3 months."
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Some of the talking heads agree, but go on to point out that the goal is not just to delay until such time, if any, as Trump regains the Presidency and self-pardons, but until a jury is empaneled. This is likely why Judge Cannon specifically earmarked some matters of law as issues for the jury. Once the jury is empaneled, double jeopardy attaches. Then Judge Cannon can suddenly rule on one of the issues she's left pending and dismiss the charges altogether. Then double jeopardy prevents them from being refiled.
 
JayUtah said:
Some of the talking heads agree, but go on to point out that the goal is not just to delay until such time, if any, as Trump regains the Presidency and self-pardons, but until a jury is empaneled. This is likely why Judge Cannon specifically earmarked some matters of law as issues for the jury. Once the jury is empaneled, double jeopardy attaches. Then Judge Cannon can suddenly rule on one of the issues she's left pending and dismiss the charges altogether. Then double jeopardy prevents them from being refiled.
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This is what I have always feared. There is probably grounds for Trump being tried in Michigan, Arizona and Wisconsin at a minimum and yet he wasn't/hasn't been charged.

The legal process is and has always been at the mercy of a few individuals. Whether it be honest prosecutors, honest judges, honest investigators or honest jurors. The integrity of the system can be undone by any one of them.

Of all the cases, the documents case is the most cut and dried. This case should have been tried many months ago.
 
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Norman Alexander said:
Donny will do ANYTHING, and that's a completely unqualified "anything", if it benefits himself.
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I gotta disagree with that. Sure, he'll absolutely do anything that he THINKS may benefit him, or that benefits his ego, but he frequently categorically refuses to do things that would actually benefit him. Refusing to turn over the documents related to this case is a prime example.
 
Trebuchet said:
I gotta disagree with that. Sure, he'll absolutely do anything that he THINKS may benefit him, or that benefits his ego, but he frequently categorically refuses to do things that would actually benefit him. Refusing to turn over the documents related to this case is a prime example.
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Think of it in Donny terms. He "owns" those documents and they have some value to him with his contacts like Pootie and various sheiks. They want him to hold onto them and will pay for them. So what is better for Donny - keep them and keep on being rich, or give them up and lose their cash value. He REALLY wants to stay rich. So **** US law and tradition and any idea of how bad it may look. The official requests and probes for returns need to be thwarted as far as possible. Even if it means lying to his lawyers. Meanwhile, cue the furtive hiding activities, the secret moving vans and security footage wipes, etc. His lawyers (who he just ****** over) will keep him out of jail meanwhile, as long as he keeps making excuses and pointing fingers at Biden and shouting "WITCH HUNT!" And I predict - as a last resort, he will flee the country.
 
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Norman Alexander said:
Think of it in Donny terms. He "owns" those documents and they have some value to him with his contacts like Pootie and various sheiks. They want him to hold onto them and will pay for them. So what is better for Donny - keep them and keep on being rich, or give them up and lose their cash value. He REALLY wants to stay rich. So **** US law and tradition and any idea of how bad it may look. The official requests and probes for returns need to be thwarted as far as possible. Even if it means lying to his lawyers. Meanwhile, cue the furtive hiding activities, the secret moving vans and security footage wipes, etc. His lawyers (who he just ****** over) will keep him out of jail meanwhile, as long as he keeps making excuses and pointing fingers at Biden and shouting "WITCH HUNT!" And I predict - as a last resort, he will flee the country.
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Sadly I don't think it'll come to that. More likely he will be elected President and he'll pardon himself.
 
honestly, i don't really get the impression that anyone is excited about his candidacy at all. there's no energy behind it this time, it feels a lot different. maybe it's just me.
 
The Don said:
Sadly I don't think it'll come to that. More likely he will be elected President and he'll pardon himself.
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Fingers crossed, but I don't think that is going to happen. When he is beaten, he will deny he lost. But he will either flee the country, or end up in a nursing home/jail for the terminally bewildered insisting he is still president. His "empire" will collapse.

dirtywick said:
honestly, i don't really get the impression that anyone is excited about his candidacy at all. there's no energy behind it this time, it feels a lot different. maybe it's just me.
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All the dirty tricks are failing. People have seen behind his grubby curtain.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Fingers crossed, but I don't think that is going to happen. When he is beaten, he will deny he lost. But he will either flee the country, or end up in a nursing home/jail for the terminally bewildered insisting he is still president. His "empire" will collapse.
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I think there is a very good chance Trump will be elected again and it scares the crap out of me. I was certain he couldn't win in 2016 but I learned the hard way that the electoral system inherently favors the minority of voters and there are more than enough idiot voters in that minority, for the EC to elect Trump again.

Norman Alexander said:
All the dirty tricks are failing. People have seen behind his grubby curtain.
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I disagree. Those dirty tricks are still working for millions of people and they like what they see behind the grubby curtain.
 
Question from the side: Jared was given $2.5 billion by the Arabs only recently. And Ivanka's businesses are worth the best part of a billion. Are they not going to help poor old daddy out now? *sniffle*
 
Norman Alexander said:
Question from the side: Jared was given $2.5 billion by the Arabs only recently. And Ivanka's businesses are worth the best part of a billion. Are they not going to help poor old daddy out now? *sniffle*
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They know he'd be good for it, right?
 
Norman Alexander said:
Question from the side: Jared was given $2.5 billion by the Arabs only recently. And Ivanka's businesses are worth the best part of a billion. Are they not going to help poor old daddy out now? *sniffle*
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Even if her business is worth a billion, actually getting a significant amount cash money out of it without tanking the value and/or ticking off any other shareholders is tricky.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Question from the side: Jared was given $2.5 billion by the Arabs only recently. And Ivanka's businesses are worth the best part of a billion. Are they not going to help poor old daddy out now? *sniffle*
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That's not quite correct. They put up 2.5 billion dollars for Kushner to invest. What that means exactly is ????
 
dirtywick said:
honestly, i don't really get the impression that anyone is excited about his candidacy at all. there's no energy behind it this time, it feels a lot different. maybe it's just me.
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I agree. The thing with donald trump is, he does things in a way no one else would do. But there are good reasons why no one else would. trump's schemes -- starting with the football league, the airline, the casinos and on to the 'university' -- always wind up falling apart. I'm sure his political career will too, I'm just not certain if he's there yet.

But you have to admit, look where he's taken us. A candidate for president whose main motivation is, if he gets to the White House he can quash all the criminal investigations targeting him. Pundits are encouraged that polls have show upwards of 40% of the members of his own party say they won't vote for him if he's convicted of a crime prior to Election Day. That's the standard for an American president? Does he have a criminal record?

In the 235 years since George Washington first took office, when did we have a candidate who was facing convictions on a wide range of crimes while running for the presidency? When did we have a candidate running who might possibly be a convicted felon by Election Day?

Thanks to trump it's become the new normal and it STINKS! :(
 
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