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Split Thread Trump Document indictment (as opposed to other indictments)

But, since it involves documents that are confidential, extra time needs to be taken to ensure that they are handled properly.
All they had to do was go to where there is a SCIF. It's a lot easier than building a whole new SCIF for one trial.,
There is a little more to it than "where is a SCIF I can use". Your legal counsel has to be cleared to access classified documents. (If the trial was held in Washington it would probably not be a problem since there are probably plenty of lawyers there that deal with classified documents, but in Florida its probably rare.) Then, there will be various negotiations between the prosecutors and the agency that classified the documents to see what can be included with the evidence, and between the prosecution, defense, and the judge about what can be shown to the jury. And during the trial, decisions will need to be made on how to present the information to the jury in a secure way (which itself can be subject to appeals.)

Even a competent judge (which, again, I am saying Cannon is definitely NOT) might see a trial subject to various delays.

See: Politico
 
I think by "as long as we have the Senate" he meant "as long as Democrats control the Senate."
 
There is a little more to it than "where is a SCIF I can use". Your legal counsel has to be cleared to access classified documents. (If the trial was held in Washington it would probably not be a problem since there are probably plenty of lawyers there that deal with classified documents, but in Florida its probably rare.) Then, there will be various negotiations between the prosecutors and the agency that classified the documents to see what can be included with the evidence, and between the prosecution, defense, and the judge about what can be shown to the jury. And during the trial, decisions will need to be made on how to present the information to the jury in a secure way (which itself can be subject to appeals.)

Even a competent judge (which, again, I am saying Cannon is definitely NOT) might see a trial subject to various delays.

See: Politico

I'm not sure why everyone is focused on what the documents contain. This problem is solved with cover pages; they are not classified, and the fact Trump had them along with the contents should be all that is necessary to show improper handling of classified documents.

At least, that's what would happen if it was anyone but Trump. See what happens next time someone gets arrested for having classified documents. There is no discussion of a SCIF.
 
I'm not sure why everyone is focused on what the documents contain. This problem is solved with cover pages; they are not classified, and the fact Trump had them along with the contents should be all that is necessary to show improper handling of classified documents.
I think there would be 2 problems with that:

- Introducing just the cover pages might introduce reasonable doubt for the jury. "Trump didn't have the actual classified documents, he just kept unused cover pages to use as toilet paper".

- There is probably some legal right for the defense to examine all the evidence, to make sure it is valid, not forged by law enforcement, etc. Saying "He stole classified documents but we are only showing the cover pages" would violate that principle

Trump and Cannon are abusing the legal system, but the problem isn't necessarily the existence of the underlying rules, its just that they are applying the rules in an incorrect way.
 
I think there would be 2 problems with that:

- Introducing just the cover pages might introduce reasonable doubt for the jury. "Trump didn't have the actual classified documents, he just kept unused cover pages to use as toilet paper".

- There is probably some legal right for the defense to examine all the evidence, to make sure it is valid, not forged by law enforcement, etc. Saying "He stole classified documents but we are only showing the cover pages" would violate that principle

Trump and Cannon are abusing the legal system, but the problem isn't necessarily the existence of the underlying rules, its just that they are applying the rules in an incorrect way.

Possibly. I don't know if the jury has to have special access clearance to see these documents; I would think they would. And I am not aware of how this occurs in other cases of purloined classified material. I can see the defense counsel being able to see them, but I don't think they can argue the contents.
 
Just saw an article that the Washington judge said the prosecution can present unclassified summaries. Cannon made a separate order saying you couldn't in the documents case.

"Judge Cannon’s decision goes straight for the capillaries," Andrew Weissmann, a former assistant U.S. attorney wrote on X, formerly Twitter. "Almost pointless discussion, when so many real issue are left undecided. And her language is far too snarky for a federal judge."

Article part way down this page:

https://news.yahoo.com/north-dakota-gop-party-leader-215159018.html
 
Is this sarcasm? Does Drunky McRapeface ring a bell?

All three of those ******* Roe-reversing liars were only appointed because the GOP had both the POTUS who nominated them and the Senate where McConnell dishonestly shoved the nominees through after having blocked Obama's nominee earlier.

Had we had the Senate we could have pulled the same crap McConnell did and blocked the nominees.
 
...

(And of course if you ever have a democratic president and a republican senate, the senate will block the nomination, until they have another republican president again.)
Exactly. But the case I was making was what if Cannon were nominated by Trump. If the Democrats controlled the Senate they could block her.

Gawd help us if Trump is elected but if he were, the Senate could block a Cannon nominee.

It would probably be the least of our worries including the fact the SCOTUS is already packed with far-right justices.
 
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Generally speaking, you have two choices.

First, you can declassify the documents you intend to use as evidence. This doesn't remove criminal liability for having retained them when you shouldn't have. But it blunts the impact on national security when you get to the sentencing phase: "If these documents are not really that secret, then what's the harm in retaining them?"

Second, you rely on the principle that the content of the document is irrelevant to the unlawfulness of retaining it. The jury doesn't need to know what the document contains, just believe that it was classified when it was retained. To establish this, you can bring in an official from the classifying agency who testifies that the document recovered from Mar-a-Lago was indeed a document classified by his agency and was indeed still classified at the time it was recovered. If that official survives cross examination, then it's a perfectly defensible finding of fact that the document was classified and therefore unlawful to retain—regardless of content.
 
I'm not sure why everyone is focused on what the documents contain. This problem is solved with cover pages; they are not classified, and the fact Trump had them along with the contents should be all that is necessary to show improper handling of classified documents.

At least, that's what would happen if it was anyone but Trump. See what happens next time someone gets arrested for having classified documents. There is no discussion of a SCIF.

It's the defense asking to see the documents, both because they are gambling on delaying the trial until after Trump is gasp elected, and probably because in Trump's twisted mind he has some bizarre rationale he can find something which "wins his case" in them.
 
Just saw an article that the Washington judge said the prosecution can present unclassified summaries. Cannon made a separate order saying you couldn't in the documents case.



Article part way down this page:

https://news.yahoo.com/north-dakota-gop-party-leader-215159018.html

These are discovery orders, which do not apply to orders in limine on what can be presented to a jury. In one case the judge allows that discovery may be satisfied by presenting unclassified summaries of classified materials. I have also seen this done by allowing redacted versions. This is presumably so that the non-government party does not have to have a security clearance to receive them, and so that they can be reviewed in settings suitable for non-classified materials (i.e., outside a SCIF).

Again this goes to the point that the contents of classified materials are only marginally relevant compared to the classification status. The non-cleared party will generally want to know the contents only to make a case that actual harm to national security is limited.

But we also do this for proprietary information in civil cases. If discovery requires us to disclose documents that, say, reveal some of our proprietary methods and practices which we desire to remain trade secrets, we would first seek leave to satisfy discovery by redacted disclosure. The judge could agree that some part of a discoverable document is both immaterial to the case and too revealing and allow it to be redacted. The fallback position is the standard protective order, but this is often unsatisfying because while a judge can prevent a receiving party from using material received in discovery for any purpose outside the suit, there's literally no way to prevent that information from being retained in the other party's brain. If through discovery we get information on a competitor's trade-secret practices, there's very little they can do to prevent our own operations from being informed and aided by that knowledge. So long as we don't overtly copy them, there's not much the other party can do.

Judge Cannon rules differently in her case because she has already ordered that Trump's defense counsel be cleared to review the documents in their entirety. That means the government is limited in in the protective orders it can request. The actual text of the motion and order touch on something that isn't really talked about in the Yahoo article. The special counsel is asking for an order preventing classified materials from being given to the defendant per se, i.e., Trump. Trump's attorneys who have the proper clearances can review the content of the documents for whatever reason they think is pertinent to the case. But now Judge Cannon has ruled that Trump himself gets the documents.

Reading between the lines, you can see why the special counsel wants this. The government has spent the better part of two years clawing back from Trump documents he never should have kept after leaving office. Now thanks to the discovery process, he gets to have them again. Yes, in cases where discovery involves privileged or restricted information, a protective order prevents any party receiving discovery from divulging it further. This is what we talked about in the Alex Jones case. But how confident are we that Trump is going to obey a protective order?

The special counsel wasn't going to win this, although Judge Cannon's order is fairly snarky (as noted). He tried to argue that requirements of disclosure to "the defendant" could mean just the defendant's attorneys and not the defendant per se. That's really never going to fly in a legal sense because the defendant maintains nominal control over how the defense is conducted, even if it's the attorneys who do the strategizing. Just because the defendant speaks and acts through his attorneys as regards the court doesn't mean he stops having rights afforded to "the defendant" by law and by the rules of evidence.
 
As long as we have the Senate there will be no more incompetent or corrupt SCOTUS appointments.
A couple of decades ago that might have been the norm....But Moscow Mitch has thrown out that concept, so if we ever get a republican senate and republican president again, they will happily confirm the most incompetent pick.
I think by "as long as we have the Senate" he meant "as long as Democrats control the Senate."
Exactly. But the case I was making was what if Cannon were nominated by Trump. If the Democrats controlled the Senate they could block her.
Ah, my mistake. I assumed by "we have the senate" you were referring to the more general, bipartisan role of the senate where they acted in good faith to exert some control over the president.

But, that description (that "we have the senate..." is more of a "democrats hold it") makes sense.
 
These are discovery orders, which do not apply to orders in limine on what can be presented to a jury. In one case the judge allows that discovery may be satisfied by presenting unclassified summaries of classified materials. I have also seen this done by allowing redacted versions. This is presumably so that the non-government party does not have to have a security clearance to receive them, and so that they can be reviewed in settings suitable for non-classified materials (i.e., outside a SCIF).

Again this goes to the point that the contents of classified materials are only marginally relevant compared to the classification status. The non-cleared party will generally want to know the contents only to make a case that actual harm to national security is limited.

But we also do this for proprietary information in civil cases. If discovery requires us to disclose documents that, say, reveal some of our proprietary methods and practices which we desire to remain trade secrets, we would first seek leave to satisfy discovery by redacted disclosure. The judge could agree that some part of a discoverable document is both immaterial to the case and too revealing and allow it to be redacted. The fallback position is the standard protective order, but this is often unsatisfying because while a judge can prevent a receiving party from using material received in discovery for any purpose outside the suit, there's literally no way to prevent that information from being retained in the other party's brain. If through discovery we get information on a competitor's trade-secret practices, there's very little they can do to prevent our own operations from being informed and aided by that knowledge. So long as we don't overtly copy them, there's not much the other party can do.

Judge Cannon rules differently in her case because she has already ordered that Trump's defense counsel be cleared to review the documents in their entirety. That means the government is limited in in the protective orders it can request. The actual text of the motion and order touch on something that isn't really talked about in the Yahoo article. The special counsel is asking for an order preventing classified materials from being given to the defendant per se, i.e., Trump. Trump's attorneys who have the proper clearances can review the content of the documents for whatever reason they think is pertinent to the case. But now Judge Cannon has ruled that Trump himself gets the documents.

Reading between the lines, you can see why the special counsel wants this. The government has spent the better part of two years clawing back from Trump documents he never should have kept after leaving office. Now thanks to the discovery process, he gets to have them again. Yes, in cases where discovery involves privileged or restricted information, a protective order prevents any party receiving discovery from divulging it further. This is what we talked about in the Alex Jones case. But how confident are we that Trump is going to obey a protective order?

The special counsel wasn't going to win this, although Judge Cannon's order is fairly snarky (as noted). He tried to argue that requirements of disclosure to "the defendant" could mean just the defendant's attorneys and not the defendant per se. That's really never going to fly in a legal sense because the defendant maintains nominal control over how the defense is conducted, even if it's the attorneys who do the strategizing. Just because the defendant speaks and acts through his attorneys as regards the court doesn't mean he stops having rights afforded to "the defendant" by law and by the rules of evidence.

The problem of course is these are highly classified documents and Canon is ignoring CIPA.
The Classified Information Procedures Act is a set of laws designed to protect the dissemination of classified information and due process.

Imagine a spy stealing nuclear secrets demanding the very information he stole to defend himself against an espionage charge? It would be nuts for the government to give him the documents. But as a defendant in a criminal trial, he is entitled to discovery to prepare for a fair trial.

CIPA allows for summaries to be provided. There is no reason that Canon didn't follow the law and provide summaries

Canon keeps treating this as if she is reinventing the wheel. All she has to do is follow the Classified Information Procedures Act.

The reality is this case doesn't hang on what's in the documents, but Trump stealing them and retaining them after the government requested and demanded their return.
 
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...

Again this goes to the point that the contents of classified materials are only marginally relevant compared to the classification status. The non-cleared party will generally want to know the contents only to make a case that actual harm to national security is limited.

...respectfully snipped.

Thanks for the extended information.

I don't know that the last sentence above is actually a case that can be made. The security levels and markings DEFINE the harm. plus I'm not sure that defining harm would apply in a criminal trial regarding classified materials. This is not a civil trial.
 
Thanks for the extended information.

I don't know that the last sentence above is actually a case that can be made. The security levels and markings DEFINE the harm. plus I'm not sure that defining harm would apply in a criminal trial regarding classified materials. This is not a civil trial.

It would come into play during sentencing, where the court has discretion based on actual harm done. It wouldn't affect guilt or innocence.
 
Cannon IMO is a run-of-the-mill MAGA type in that she thinks the only reason why right-wingers are not beloved by everyone is because of some secret trick/spell progressives have, and that all that is needed to Make America Great Again is to catch them in the act.
Just like the Election Deniers played for time expecting the proof of the fraud to come from somewhere (because there must have been fraud or Trump would have won),
Cannon is delaying the trial waiting for proof that Smith and the DOJ have somehow tricked Trump into stealing top secret documents that were not actually secret.

Because otherwise Trump would be a traitor, and that's impossible.
 
Trump says

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump

Fake News CNN just did a story, leaked by Deranged Prosecutor Jack Smith and his massive team of Radical Left Lunatics, that various people saw papers and boxes at Mar-a-Lago. Of course they did! They may have been the boxes etc. that were openly and plainly brought from the White House, as is my right under the Presidential Records Act. I even supplied, upon request, Security Tapes to these Election Interfering Thugs. Is this really “Breaking News?" No, it's "Breaking Fake News." But what about all of the papers, boxes, and documents found at NUMEROUS Crooked Joe Biden places, like his garage floor by his cherished Corvette, or CHINATOWN where it was just learned that boxes moved freely in and out. He doesn't come under the Presidential Records Act because he wasn't President the time. Deranged Jack Smith has spent over $100,000,000 investigating me on this phony Russia, Russia, Russia, type Scam. How much $'s have they spent investigating Crooked Joe on his much bigger boxes deal?

Did he just admit to a crime there?
 
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Did he just admit to a crime there?

No more so than usual.

He doesn't admit to retaining classified documents, which is universally disallowed. But 44 U.S.C. § 2201 provides that certain personal records (which it defines) are not covered documents under the PRA and may be retained personally by the outgoing President. It is likely Trump is trying to claim this is what was photographed. We know this not to be true, but Trump is just trying to rile his base by comparing his predicament to that faced by other former Presidents who inadvertently retained classified material and returned it promptly upon discovery.

The retention line is a little blurry. § 2203 allows some personal records to be kept by the archive, and some official records to be stored in areas other than the U.S. National Archives (e.g., Presidential libraries, in the custody of the President while writing memoirs, etc.). Other former Presidents have generally kept to the rules and have complied with NARA audits. Even if Trump admits that the documents he retained are PRA-covered documents, the stage of his hotel's ballroom and his bathroom are not NARA-approved storage.
 
Judge Cannon keeps Trump classified documents trial scheduled for May.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/10/politics/cannon-trump-classified-documents-trial


Huh. I thought I just saw th-

Judge Cannon rules against Trump in request to delay classified documents trial … for now

Not quite a repeat of that headline, I suppose, but close!

Either way, that ruling comes with a caveat -

In her ruling, several deadlines that were on the calendar for this trial were moved to a later date. Those could potentially lead to a cascade of changes and further delays. However, legal analyst Bradley Moss considers the delays “minor.”

The bigger concern is that Cannon leaves the door open for Trump to resubmit his request for a delay at a hearing on March 1, 2024. Because, as Cannon notes, March could be a rather busy month for Trump.
 
Trump says

Quote:
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump

Fake News CNN just did a story, leaked by Deranged Prosecutor Jack Smith and his massive team of Radical Left Lunatics, that various people saw papers and boxes at Mar-a-Lago. Of course they did! They may have been the boxes etc. that were openly and plainly brought from the White House, as is my right under the Presidential Records Act. I even supplied, upon request, Security Tapes to these Election Interfering Thugs. Is this really “Breaking News?" No, it's "Breaking Fake News." But what about all of the papers, boxes, and documents found at NUMEROUS Crooked Joe Biden places, like his garage floor by his cherished Corvette, or CHINATOWN where it was just learned that boxes moved freely in and out. He doesn't come under the Presidential Records Act because he wasn't President the time. Deranged Jack Smith has spent over $100,000,000 investigating me on this phony Russia, Russia, Russia, type Scam. How much $'s have they spent investigating Crooked Joe on his much bigger boxes deal?

Did he just admit to a crime there?

I even supplied, upon request, Security Tapes to these Election Interfering Thugs.

Um....those security tapes were subpoenaed.

 
Judge Cannon keeps Trump classified documents trial scheduled for May.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/10/politics/cannon-trump-classified-documents-trial

Aaaaanndd... It's gone.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/morni...l-trial-before-election-day-nearly-impossible

Basically, Smith asked the Trump team to say which specific classified documents they want to use at trial in May, so they can get all the complicated legalities of those documents being introduced or not before trial (a pretty reasonable request). Smith asked Cannon to set a deadline for the Trump team providing this information for December.

Cannon just quietly announced that the request will be discussed at a pre-trial hearing in March, making it all but certain that the trial will be delayed past May, as it will be easy for the Trump team to delay and spin things out on such an issue.

So Cannon publicly announces that the trial will go forward in May, then makes a quiet procedural decision that makes it all but certain not to happen due to a completely predictable unpredictable delay...
 
Aaaaanndd... It's gone.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/morni...l-trial-before-election-day-nearly-impossible

Basically, Smith asked the Trump team to say which specific classified documents they want to use at trial in May, so they can get all the complicated legalities of those documents being introduced or not before trial (a pretty reasonable request). Smith asked Cannon to set a deadline for the Trump team providing this information for December.

Cannon just quietly announced that the request will be discussed at a pre-trial hearing in March, making it all but certain that the trial will be delayed past May, as it will be easy for the Trump team to delay and spin things out on such an issue.

So Cannon publicly announces that the trial will go forward in May, then makes a quiet procedural decision that makes it all but certain not to happen due to a completely predictable unpredictable delay...

Justice delayed is justice denied?

Can this be appealed?
 
So Cannon publicly announces that the trial will go forward in May, then makes a quiet procedural decision that makes it all but certain not to happen due to a completely predictable unpredictable delay...

It's worse than that; Cannon is still reserving the impossible date in May, which means that Trump can't be tried for anything else in that timeframe. She's not just delaying this one case, but putting up a roadblock for the whole justice system.

Dave
 
It's worse than that; Cannon is still reserving the impossible date in May, which means that Trump can't be tried for anything else in that timeframe. She's not just delaying this one case, but putting up a roadblock for the whole justice system.

Dave
Why not?
 
It's worse than that; Cannon is still reserving the impossible date in May, which means that Trump can't be tried for anything else in that timeframe. She's not just delaying this one case, but putting up a roadblock for the whole justice system.

Dave

How?
 
Justice delayed is justice denied?

Can this be appealed?

Not sure it can be. In the chilly, Platonic, intellectual realm of High Legalism, there isn't anything really wrong with her decision. She is merely setting a date for discussion of various pre-trial legal issues two months ahead of the trial.

It is only when you step back and see the real-world implications of the action that the problems become apparent.
 
Not sure it can be. In the chilly, Platonic, intellectual realm of High Legalism, there isn't anything really wrong with her decision. She is merely setting a date for discussion of various pre-trial legal issues two months ahead of the trial.

It is only when you step back and see the real-world implications of the action that the problems become apparent.

Trump would appeal it, if it did not suit him. It seems you can sue anyone for anything in the USA, and appeal any decisions you don't like, no matter how nonsensical. So why not this one?
 
Trump would appeal it, if it did not suit him. It seems you can sue anyone for anything in the USA, and appeal any decisions you don't like, no matter how nonsensical. So why not this one?

It may seem that way sometimes but it's not reality.

Lawsuits:

"Attorneys, judges, and the judicial system are faced with frivolous lawsuits frequently and there are measures to deal with them quickly. In fact, if your attorney were to plead a motion to dismiss, the lawsuit could get thrown out even without being heard. Also, be aware that attorneys who represent litigious people can be sanctioned for filing such frivolous legal actions in court."

"in some states, people who bring frivolous litigation on a frequent basis, are punished and added to the list of “vexatious litigators.” In many cases, filing a frivolous claim will lead to a civil fine and may also lead to a contempt order if you have an attorney who is knowledgeable in this area of law and knows what types of motions to file before the court. Attorneys who knowingly file frivolous lawsuits may also be fined, sanctioned or face suspension of their license to practice law."

Appeals:

"A popular misconception is that cases are always appealed. Not often does a losing party have an automatic right of appeal. There usually must be a legal basis for the appeal an alleged material error in the trial not just the fact that the losing party didn t like the verdict."

In a civil case, either party may appeal to a higher court. In a criminal case, only the defendant has a right to an appeal in most states. (Some states give the prosecution a limited right to appeal to determine certain points of law. These appeals usually occur before the actual trial begins. Appeals by the prosecution after a verdict are not normally allowed because of the prohibition in the U. S. Constitution against double jeopardy, or being tried twice for the same crime.)"

In Italy, the defendant can appeal convictions and the prosecution can appeal a criminal acquittal which is one reason the process there can take many years to conclude. For example, the Meredith Kercher murder trial process there began upon the arrest of the defendants in Nov. 2007 and wasn't concluded until March 2015 due to 3 appeals, including one acquittal appeal from the prosecution.
 
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