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[Split Thread] Trump Document indictment (as opposed to other indictments)

Crazy stuff.
“Well, with Milley – uh, let me see that, I’ll show you an example. He said that I wanted to attack Iran. Isn’t that amazing? I have a big pile of papers, this thing just came up. Look. This was him,” Trump says, according to the transcript. “They presented me this – this is off the record, but – they presented me this. This was him. This was the Defense Department and him. We looked at some. This was him. This wasn’t done by me, this was him.”
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It sounds like the libretto for an opera:

"This was him, this was him
Him this was, this was him!
(Was this him?) Yes this was!
(Mar-a-Lago!)
(Mar-a-Lago!)
(Bedroom, ballroom, bath-room)
(Bedroom, ballroom, bath-room)
(Shower, shower, shower, shower)
(This was him, this was him, this was him!)"


(OK, I admit Tragic Monkey could have done a lot better.)
 
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I'm guessing that Smith is setting up a trap for Trump:

the Secret documents will have to be, at least in part, disclosed to the Jury and Trump's lawyers. They are probably chosen to be really damning. But they will have to keep their trap shut about them.

But Trump might be unable to blab about them, opening him up to additional charges as well as destroying his chances with the Jury and Judge.

Unfortunately, his pet Judge could throw a wrench in this plan.
 
From the indictment, a document labelled:
TOP SECRET//SI//NOFORN//FISA
Undated document concerning military applications of a foreign country and the United States, with handwritten annotation in black marker
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Trump's favourite black marker? He might as well have signed it. Who else uses those to write notes?
 
The Great Zaganza said:
I'm guessing that Smith is setting up a trap for Trump:

the Secret documents will have to be, at least in part, disclosed to the Jury and Trump's lawyers. They are probably chosen to be really damning. But they will have to keep their trap shut about them.

But Trump might be unable to blab about them, opening him up to additional charges as well as destroying his chances with the Jury and Judge.

Unfortunately, his pet Judge could throw a wrench in this plan.
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The real problem that Trump can't just wave away are the conspiracy and obstruction charges. I have to admit I feel somewhat sorry for his valet/aide that was charged with him.
 
acbytesla said:
The real problem that Trump can't just wave away are the conspiracy and obstruction charges. I have to admit I feel somewhat sorry for his valet/aide that was charged with him.
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I find it odd that the aide was charged seemingly equally with Trump. Oh, I so hope he cops to a plea deal for any info he can give. He'd better watch himself on those stairs, though.
 
alfaniner said:
I find it odd that the aide was charged seemingly equally with Trump. Oh, I so hope he cops to a plea deal for any info he can give. He'd better watch himself on those stairs, though.
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He lied to the FBI for Trump.

Of course he will get the Book thrown at him.

It's a strong signal to all the other conspirators.
 
I'm guessing "Trump Attorneys 1, 2 and 3" named in the matter co-operated finally in order to provide facts to the case in exchange for not being charged with co-conspiracy etc.

I heard about 2 more Trump attorneys resigning recently. More fuel for the DOJ?
 
JoeMorgue said:
I'm just... the balance of evil and stupidity is just... it makes my head hurt.

He stole classified documents and showed them to a Golf guy.

It's like watching an Austin Powers movie with Dr. Evil and a James Bond movie with Ernest Bloefield at the same time.
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That’s so good I’m stealing it. ;)
 
Norman Alexander said:
The previous owner, Marjorie Post, made it into her mansion away from Washington. She was very particular about doing style well, and had the fortune to afford the best. Apparently Trump had the good stuff ripped out when he bought and renovated the place. This is the same place that Trump valued at over $750 million when it was really worth less than $75 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar-a-Lago
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Remember what he did to the old Bonwit Tower art deco artworks when he demolished it to build the Trump penis replacement? Man really hates quality and art.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Really? Just because a lot of us see him as that whiny baby in diapers doesn't mean he hasn't successfully accomplished making himself look spectacularly bigly. Some in his cult even see him as akin to Jesus.


I agree with the bolded part but I think he vacillates between his ego hitting rock bottom and rising above the clouds on a regular basis.
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It's easy to fool idiots, even another idiot can do it. The people Trump craves validation from still look down on him. He's never breached the inner circle of New York high society. They still consider him a charmless oik.
 
alfaniner said:
My favorite page of the indictment:
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There's no minimum, mandatory prison sentence for any of the counts. I guess that means he won't go to prison if found guilty (based on the fact that it's America and he's rich).

He'll probably get a 'slap on the wrist' fine, and the Trumpites will spin that as a victory.
 
sarge said:
I think the number of Democrats saying such a thing will be minuscule. There may be some number of unaligned voters and a significant number of reasonable Republicans saying that.
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The numbers might be miniscule but they'll be heavily concentrated among those that make the party's decisions. As I said, they've done it four times already since the sixties.
 
For sure, any Trump lawyer valuing their job will document anything that looks slightly illegal going forward.

Any future prosecutor will attempt to get a Judge to rule for a crime fraud exception.
 
acbytesla said:
Attorney client privilege doesn't protect a client as well as many people think. There is something called the crime fraud exception. An attorney cannot help a client hiding a crime. In fact, they are duty bound as an officer of the court to report it. Ninja'd big time!
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Plus what an attorney volunteers to a third party isn't an attorney-client matter. If Trump hired lawyers so poor they blabbed to prosecutors, then more fool him. Same goes if he failed to pay them.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
She's not smart enough to outsmart Smith or Garland. You can expect her to be replaced before Tues.
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KW says it's not easy to do that, despite the pundits saying it is.

Also, sure doesn't have to be smart to beat them, just shameless. She's already shown she has plenty of that.
 
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Gulliver Foyle said:
Plus what an attorney volunteers to a third party isn't an attorney-client matter. If Trump hired lawyers so poor they blabbed to prosecutors, then more fool him. Same goes if he failed to pay them.
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I don't think any of his lawyers "volunteered" any information. What happened was that the lawyers were helping him commit crimes. Doing so pierces the the attorney-client privilege...

Federal Rules of Evidence 502(d)(1): If an attorney-client relationship has been misused by a client in furtherance of a crime or fraud, there is no attorney-client privilege​
The DoJ went to court and claimed this was happening, and the court ruled in their favour, resulting in the subpoenaing and deposition of his lawyer Evan Corcoran et al.

MAGA: Making Attorneys Get Attorneys
 
MAGA protestors outside Mar a Lago are claiming the photos of the boxes of documents on the stage and in the bathroom and showers are faked or planted. It's all a huge conspiracy to get rid of Trump.

Gawd, I have no patience with such stupid people.
 
acbytesla said:
This is just the beginning. I'm betting Trump is going to be indicted on many more charges. There is still January 6th. There is election interference. I bet Fani Willis will indict Trump in Georgia by the end of June.
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Ladbrokes has him 3 to 1 to be president. Apparently he can be elected even if in jail.
 
Stacyhs said:
MAGA protestors outside Mar a Lago are claiming the photos of the boxes of documents on the stage and in the bathroom and showers are faked or planted. It's all a huge conspiracy to get rid of Trump.

Gawd, I have no patience with such stupid people.
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Saw an interview with a Republican voter yesterday where he acknowledged it was pretty bad...then added 'but others have done much worse and they haven't gone after them.'

I'm going to assume that's a reference to 'Hilary's emails' or Biden / Pence's documents. Can these people really not see the difference between realising some documents haven't been handed in and then taking all the right steps to do so versus deliberately taking documents, lieing that you don't have them, hiding them etc? Not least that these look much more serious national security documents.
 
the narrative is: the Lamestream Media is overplaying Trump's guilt and underplaying the Dems' crimes.

The best way to break the shell, IMO, is to point out that Trump had the WH and DOJ for four years and didn't get Obama/HRC/Biden on anything, and the Biden DOJ is getting him for what is essentially treason.

At minimum, that means that Trump is a loser, unable to make use of the Presidency to fight the Deep State. Electing him again, now that the Deep State has so much ammunition against him, would be an exercise in futility.
 
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I suspect the filthy Russian whore is going to do something stupid (if he doesn't off himself) and go into pretrial confinement. The dumb **** will probably not veil a direction to his followers to engage in violence and he'll get put in custody.
 
The excuse will be what the excuse always is.

1. Straight up reality denial.
2. Whataboutism.
3. "We're being dramatic."
4. It's only a "process crime" a concept I'm still not 100% sure what is supposed to mean but it was THE big talking point from the Trump Trolls during one of his legal wranglings.
5. "It's not valid because they investigated Trump without knowing he did anything wrong, also only an official investigation can prove Trump did anything wrong."
6. "We have bigger things to worry about, this is a distraction from the real issues (which we also don't care about)" concern trolling.

As always the Trump Trolls will have to be told what to think, which is why none of them are defending him in this thread yet.
 
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I am curious here.
The crime looks technical to me rather than dangerous for the nation.
Am I missing something?
 
Ethan Thane Athen said:
Saw an interview with a Republican voter yesterday where he acknowledged it was pretty bad...then added 'but others have done much worse and they haven't gone after them.'

I'm going to assume that's a reference to 'Hilary's emails' or Biden / Pence's documents. Can these people really not see the difference between realising some documents haven't been handed in and then taking all the right steps to do so versus deliberately taking documents, lieing that you don't have them, hiding them etc? Not least that these look much more serious national security documents.
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Can they not see the difference? They might well be able to, if they were actually informed. Fox and the rest of the right-wing propaganda machine have gone hard in the direction of creating an unprincipled fantasy world, though. They're making an utter mockery of their Law and Order narrative, yet again, on a national level, for anyone who actually cares about reality. Kayfabe isn't about reality, though.
 
Samson said:
I am curious here.
The crime looks technical to me rather than dangerous for the nation.
Am I missing something?
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Hiding materials related to national defense and nuclear weapons?

Definitely. I can only imagine what he eventually intended to do with them.
 
Samson said:
I am curious here.
The crime looks technical to me rather than dangerous for the nation.
Am I missing something?
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I assume that the Documents Smith picked for the indictment will be of the dangerous kind.

And they are probably not the MOST dangerous ones, because the Intelligence Community would not want to risk them leaking in the Trial process.
 
Samson said:
I am curious here.
The crime looks technical to me rather than dangerous for the nation.
Am I missing something?
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What would count as dangerous for the nation to you, then? From certain points of view, selling nuclear secrets off to hostile foreign powers isn't dangerous for the nation. Nor is promoting politically motivated mass murder across the nation and all kinds of other obviously problematic things.
 
Hercules56 said:
Hiding materials related to national defense and nuclear weapons?

Definitely. I can only imagine what he eventually intended to do with them.
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Brag about having them (most likely, and he's already on record doing that)

Sell them to his bestie, Putin (least likely, but still possible)

Use them as a bargaining chip (also possible)
 
Samson said:
I am curious here.
The crime looks technical to me rather than dangerous for the nation.
Am I missing something?
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For the most part, it looks like the people he was showing the documents to were not foreign agents, and likely would not have been a threat.

But remember that Russian and Chinese assets are known to have infiltrated Mar-a-Lago. Trained foreign intelligence agents could easily have gained access to such sloppily stored classified documents. The crimes he’s charged with do not require a nexus between grossly mishandling and displaying documents, and the possible dire consequences of them being stolen/viewed by foreign agents.
 
Aridas said:
What would count as dangerous for the nation to you, then? From certain points of view, selling nuclear secrets off to hostile foreign powers isn't dangerous for the nation. Nor is promoting politically motivated mass murder across the nation and all kinds of other obviously problematic things.
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The sedition investigation is still ongoing. I wouldn't read into the fact that these are the first charges filed. More are almost certainly coming.
 
Craig4 said:
The sedition investigation is still ongoing. I wouldn't read into the fact that these are the first charges filed. More are almost certainly coming.
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I don't think he is going to be charged with regards to January 6th.

He never specifically told anyone to be violent. He never specifically told anyone to stop the electoral college count. I think regarding this case he may have just saved himself by a hair.


..... On second thought he was involved in the fake electors plot.

He may get charged with that. By the feds and Georgia.
 
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Hercules56 said:
I don't think he is going to be charged with regards to January 6th.

He never specifically told anyone to be violent. He never specifically told anyone to stop the electoral college count. I think regarding this case he may have just saved himself by a hair.
.
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I think that depends on what Smith can learn about who booked the Willard Hotel Room and what was said.
 
Hercules56 said:
I don't think he is going to be charged with regards to January 6th.

He never specifically told anyone to be violent. He never specifically told anyone to stop the electoral college count. I think regarding this case he may have just saved himself by a hair. ...
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Why is a specific command to be violent the key to his guilt? As for specifically telling the mob to stop the certification, I think he did just that.

Trump sent a mob to stop the certification of the election outcome. That is the crime re Jan 6th.
 
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