[Merged] Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[acbytesla]

Why do you suspect flaws in the census (or the counts of convicted prisoners) in England & Wales? It's a hard count of every person, not numbers extrapolated from sampling. And the statistics being shown (as already noted) are about sex offences, not violent offences.

Because there are lies, damn lies and statistics. Or as my father use to say. "While figures don't lie. Liars figure."

I have been perusing articles on Google Scholar for the last couple of hours about violence and transgendered individuals. What is clear is the judicial system is extremely harsh on transgendered individuals. Higher rates of incarceration across the board.. So let's say your information is somewhat correct. Is the reason that they are actually more violent? Or that they are simply incarcerated more often for the same offenses? Or a combination of both. Also, there seems to be a dearth of data.

 

[ahhell]

When what happens? When a woman doesn't bother to raise the alarm when a male enters what was previously a female safe space and behaves inappropriately because she knows nothing will be done, and she's just expected to put up with it? When a woman stops going to the gym because there are no longer any such things as female safe spaces?

Why don't you tell me why the feelings of a trans identifying male when expected to use male or unisex facilities are so much more important than the feelings of a female rape victim when expected to share the women's showers with a male she neither knows nor trusts?

Well, he says he's not a male so, that's a thing that apparently matters more than her thinking the person with a penis is a male.

 

[Ziggurat]

Weak sauce. I don't buy making it a criminal offense for a MtF to use a Women's restroom protects women.

I said nothing about making it a criminal offense. Where did you get that from? But even if it's not a criminal offense, if you can't understand how keeping males out of women's restrooms and changing rooms can protect them, you haven't been paying attention. I really don't know where to start with that.

 

[Agatha]

Because there are lies, damn lies and statistics. Or as my father use to say. "While figures don't lie. Liars figure."

I have been perusing articles on Google Scholar for the last couple of hours about violence and transgendered individuals. What is clear is the judicial system is extremely harsh on transgendered individuals. Higher rates of incarceration across the board.. So let's say your information is somewhat correct. Is the reason that they are actually more violent? Or that they are simply incarcerated more often for the same offenses? Or a combination of both. Also, there seems to be a dearth of data.

It is far from clear that the justice system is harsh, never mind extremely harsh, on trans-identifying individuals in the UK.

I am unclear why you keep talking about violent offences when the figures you challenged and the ones provided to you pertain to sex offences.

 

[acbytesla]

It is far from clear that the justice system is harsh, never mind extremely harsh, on trans-identifying individuals in the UK.

I am unclear why you keep talking about violent offences when the figures you challenged and the ones provided to you pertain to sex offences.

Do me a favor. Go to Google Scholar and search for Transgender and violence. Then search Transgender and judicial system.

 

[acbytesla]

I said nothing about making it a criminal offense. Where did you get that from? But even if it's not a criminal offense, if you can't understand how keeping males out of women's restrooms and changing rooms can protect them, you haven't been paying attention. I really don't know where to start with that.

Protect them from what? Offer some evidence of Transgender individuals committing violence in either place. If it does happen, it has to be insanely rare.

 

[Rolfe]

Do we really need to go out and collect the enormous number of reported cases where a trans-identifying man escaped a prison sentence for a sexual offence either because the trauma caused by his "gender dysphoria" was said to be a mitigating circumstance, or because it was held that he would suffer disproportionately in prison because of his trans identification? I'm sure someone has collated them somewhere.

Then we have all the men who suddenly discover their inner trans after being charged with a sexual offence against a woman, in the hope that they'll be sent to a women's prison? An all-you-can-eat buffet for them.

 

[Agatha]

Do me a favor. Go to Google Scholar and search for Transgender and violence. Then search Transgender and judicial system.

Why do I need to do that? The statistics that you requested - the FOI request to the UK government to which I linked and the census data to which Rolfe linked - are about sex offences, not violent offences.

 

[acbytesla]

Do we really need to go out and collect the enormous number of reported cases where a trans-identifying man escaped a prison sentence for a sexual offence either because the trauma caused by his "gender dysphoria" was said to be a mitigating circumstance, or because it was held that he would suffer disproportionately in prison because of his trans identification? I'm sure someone has collated them somewhere.

Then we have all the men who suddenly discover their inner trans after being charged with a sexual offence against a woman, in the hope that they'll be sent to a women's prison? An all-you-can-eat buffet for them.

Yes you do. The more I read, the more I see trans-identifying MtF individuals being treated harshly by the judicial and penal systems. Of far more violence committed against such individuals than by such individuals against society.

From what I have read in article after article today, assaults on such individuals is magnitudes more. They are assaulted, murdered and resort to suicide far higher than the general population.

 

[acbytesla]

Why do I need to do that? The statistics that you requested - the FOI request to the UK government to which I linked and the census data to which Rolfe linked - are about sex offences, not violent offences.

Why because there is significantly more info there. Perhaps it might have an effect on your perspective.

 

[theprestige]

I suspect that there are major flaws in the census count and violence among transgender individuals. Thatvsaid, it might be accurate. Whether it is my bias or theirs is still unknown. But it is staggering to me just how much flawed and even doctored information is published by individuals with personal agendas.

The Cass Report must have been a real eye opener for you.

 

[d4m10n]

Not only that, but I vehemently reject the idea that the sexes are unable to apply abstract reasoning and human empathy to broad questions of public policy that affect each other.

Reject it all you like, people aren't all that great at putting themselves in other people's shoes. During the great Elevatorgate debate, most men couldn't even wrap their heads around why a woman might feel uncomfortable being sexually propositioned with no way to physically exit the situation.

 

[d4m10n]

Seems to me that the idea that we should split democracy into a women’s section and a men’s section is pretty god damn patronizing.

On issues that only effect one sex, I don't see any good reason to give the opposite sex a vote.

 

[Ziggurat]

On issues that only effect one sex, I don't see any good reason to give the opposite sex a vote.

It doesn’t only affect one sex. It affects both sexes, just asymmetrically. As a male, am I allowed to enter the women’s locker room? That affects me.

 

[Agatha]

Why because there is significantly more info there. Perhaps it might have an effect on your perspective.

My perspective on what? I gave you statistics on the disparity of sexual offending amongst trans-identifying males compared with non trans-identifying males and also with females at your request, as did Rolfe. It's statistics, not an opinion.

 

[Ziggurat]

From what I have read in article after article today, assaults on such individuals is magnitudes more. They are assaulted, murdered and resort to suicide far higher than the general population.

And have these articles controlled for factors such as income, age, drug use, etc? Because we know that being trans correlates with a bunch of comorbidities which can increase the risk of being a crime victim. That doesn’t mean being trans was the cause.

Remember the Mathew Shepherd murder? Supposedly an anti gay hate crime. Except it wasn’t. It was a drug related robbery gone wrong.

 

[acbytesla]

The Cass Report must have been a real eye opener for you.

You should read "An Evidence-Based Critique of “The Cass Review” on Gender-affirming Care for
Adolescent Gender Dysphoria"
This is what it says about the Cass Report.

In 2020, the United Kingdom’s National Health Service (NHS) commissioned an inquiry to provide recommendations for the healthcare of transgender adolescents. This process was overseen by a pediatrician named Dr. Hillary Cass and reached completion in April 2024. The
final product is a 388-page report called the “Cass Review,” and is accompanied by seven systematic reviews conducted by authors affiliated with the University of York.


Unfortunately, the Review repeatedly misuses data and violates its own evidentiary standards by resting many conclusions
on speculation. Many of its statements and the conduct of the York SRs reveal profound misunderstandings of the evidence base and the clinical issues at hand. The Review also subverts widely accepted processes for development of clinical recommendations and repeats spurious,
debunked claims about transgender identity and gender dysphoria. These errors conflict with well-established norms of clinical research and evidence-based healthcare. Further, these errors raise serious concern about the scientific integrity of critical elements of the report’s process
and recommendations.
In the short time since its release, the Review has been used to justify restrictions on healthcare for transgender youth. In March 2024, the NHS announced that it would deny puberty-pausing medications to those under age 18 outside of a research setting. In June 2024, the NHS Health
Secretary cited the Review as the rationale for emergency regulations that criminalize the supply of puberty-pausing medications to new patients under 18 in England, Scotland, or Wales.5
This ban, which applies only to the treatment of gender dysphoria, labeled these medications as a “serious danger to health.” These medications remain freely available for other pediatric health needs, of which precocious puberty, endometriosis, and fertility preservation prior to chemotherapy are some.

We produced this report to emphasize the Review’s key tenets, to bring the critical yet buried findings to the forefront, and to provide evidence-informed critiques where merited. The transparency and expertise of our group starkly contrast with the Review’s authors. Most of the Review’s known contributors have neither research nor clinical experience in transgender healthcare. The Review incorrectly assumes that clinicians who provide and conduct research in transgender healthcare are biased. Expertise is not considered bias in any other realm of science or medicine, and it should not be here. Further, many of the Review’s authors’ identities are unknown. Transparency and trustworthiness go hand-in-hand, but many of the Review’s authors cannot be vetted for ideological and intellectual conflicts of interest.

 

[Trausti]

Is there like an objective basis/test to determine that a young person will indeed present as trans as an adult? If that doesn't exist, then doing this to children is inexcusable.

 

[Emily's Cat]

What percentage of those voters were ever given a female choice, even in the primaries?

Seems to me that men ought to gracefully bow out of decisions about women's health, bodies, privacy, etc. unless they have no choice but to address the issue (e.g. appeals courts). If there are women who can make the choice, let them do so.

Some of those males are fathers who have a responsibility for the safety and dignity of their female children...

 

[acbytesla]

Is there like an objective basis/test to determine that a young person will indeed present as trans as an adult? If that doesn't exist, then doing this to children is inexcusable.

Doing what to children? Almost no one undergoes surgery before 18. Are you talking about receiving puberty blocker medication? Counseling?

 

[acbytesla]

Some of those males are fathers who have a responsibility for the safety and dignity of their female children...

That's right. They can treat their daughters as possessions that they have permanent authority over. You know, like in the Bible where women are prevented from owning property and fathers can marry them off to whomever or sell them off as slaves or concubines. The good old days.

 

[Hercules56]

Loading…

www.nytimes.com

Puberty blockers banned for minors in the UK.

Are the Brits now intolerant bigots?

Or is this something different? Maybe leaving adult, irreversible decisions to adults..is a good thing?

 

[Ziggurat]

That's right. They can treat their daughters as possessions that they have permanent authority over. You know, like in the Bible where women are prevented from owning property and fathers can marry them off to whomever or sell them off as slaves or concubines. The good old days.

What the hell are you even talking about? Where did you get "permanent" from?

 

[Ziggurat]

Doing what to children? Almost no one undergoes surgery before 18. Are you talking about receiving puberty blocker medication? Counseling?

Almost no one? That's subjective, but it sure as hell isn't no one.

Oh, and puberty blockers aren't reversible.

 

[acbytesla]

Almost no one? That's subjective, but it sure as hell isn't no one.

Oh, and puberty blockers aren't reversible.

I don't know what your point is. That's the reason I added the modifier "almost." It requires parents and multiple doctors to sign off.

And it's a bald face lie that the use of puberty blockers isn't reversible. That depends on one the person and two how long they are taken

Study Bolsters Evidence that Effects of Puberty Blockers Are Reversible

www.physiology.org

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't know what your point is. That's the reason I added the modifier "almost." It requires parents and multiple doctors to sign off.

What's YOUR point? If "almost zero" isn't zero, then why does it matter that it's "almost zero"? Is there some threshold below which it doesn't matter that it happens? What is that threshold, and why?

And it's a bald face lie that the use of puberty blockers isn't reversible. That depends on one the person and two how long they are taken

For gender dysphoria, they are usually taken for prolonged periods. And your link is worthless. It's a study on rats, not humans.

 

[Hercules56]

I don't know what your point is. That's the reason I added the modifier "almost." It requires parents and multiple doctors to sign off.

And it's a bald face lie that the use of puberty blockers isn't reversible. That depends on one the person and two how long they are taken

Study Bolsters Evidence that Effects of Puberty Blockers Are Reversible

www.physiology.org

How does a 30 year old reverse the affects of puberty blockers taken when one was a teenager?

 

[acbytesla]

What's YOUR point? If "almost zero" isn't zero, then why does it matter that it's "almost zero"? Is there some threshold below which it doesn't matter that it happens? What is that threshold, and why?

I appreciate that some hurdles must be met for someone to make that kind of life decision. But at some this is an individual issue. I don't think it is my decision or your decision or the government's decision how that person should live their life.

For gender dysphoria, they are usually taken for prolonged periods. And your link is worthless. It's a study on rats, not humans.

There is lots of other evidence. My nephew took puberty blockers for precocious puberty. He grew up to be a healthy adult male.

 

[Hercules56]

I appreciate that some hurdles must be met for someone to make that kind of life decision. But at some this is an individual issue. I don't think it is my decision or your decision or the government's decision how that person should live their life.


There is lots of other evidence. My nephew took puberty blockers for precocious puberty. He grew up to be a healthy adult male.

There is ZERO evidence of an adult human reversing the effects of puberty blockers taken as a teenager.



You also cannot rebuild a penis that was mutilated into somewhat looking like a vagina.

These changes cannot be reversed. Which is why we should NOT allow children to make them.

 

[acbytesla]

How does a 30 year old reverse the affects of puberty blockers taken when one was a teenager?

They don't. And my guess is those people got what they wanted. Their voices didn't drop. They didn't develop masculine features. There's a reason they are prescribed. But you can take puberty blockers for a couple of years, stop and puberty does happen.

 

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Using PBs for precocious puberty is one thing; using them for " unwanted puberty" is another. If someone in the latter category takes PBs for almost as many years as puberty would ordinarily be expected to last but then desists, how much puberty would he or she then undergo?

 

[acbytesla]

Using PBs for precocious puberty is one thing; using them for " unwanted puberty" is another. If someone in the latter category takes PBs for almost as many years as puberty would ordinarily be expected to last but then desists, how much puberty would he or she then undergo?

That's too vague. Far too many variables. Everything depends on the individual, when they started using them and when they stopped. People takem for gender dysphoria because they don't want to develop male traits like voice changing, growth, being hirsute. Take them for a couple of years, the individual can change their mind.

I know of such a young man. He took puberty blockers for gender dysphoria in his teens and stopped taking them. After stopping his voice deepened and developed facial hair. But he didn't see a growth spurt that he might have If hadn't taken them. (But no one knows for sure if that is the cause...he's 5'5..which is on the short side for men today.)

 

[Ziggurat]

I appreciate that some hurdles must be met for someone to make that kind of life decision. But at some this is an individual issue. I don't think it is my decision or your decision or the government's decision how that person should live their life.

For better and worse, the government heavily regulates medical care. For example, we do not allow people to sell drugs that are not demonstrated to be safe and effective, even if the buyer wants to take a risk.

Medical transition for minors has not been demonstrated to be safe and effective. Banning it for minors isn't fundamentally different than banning untested medication. If you don't like the government making medical decisions, well, this is a fringe part of that issue.

There is lots of other evidence. My nephew took puberty blockers for precocious puberty. He grew up to be a healthy adult male.

Treatment for precocious puberty isn't equivalent to treatment for gender dysphoria. This is another topic that has been dealt with at length already in this thread. I will just note that the entire point of using blockers for precocious puberty is that the effects aren't reversible. Stop taking the drugs, and you don't get precious puberty. That's a permanent effect, and it's both desired and beneficial. Halt regular puberty for any significant length of time (which is the norm for these treatments), and it will not resume as normal. Miss the window, and it's gone for good. And there are serious negative consequences of that.

 

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Very well, acbytesla. You don't know.

 

[smartcooky]

I suspect that there are major flaws in the census count and violence among transgender individuals. Thatvsaid, it might be accurate. Whether it is my bias or theirs is still unknown. But it is staggering to me just how much flawed and even doctored information is published by individuals with personal agendas.

That's a positive assertion, so its your burden to provide evidence to back up that assertion.

 

[smartcooky]

You're right. It doesn't. But I also can't disprove God, Big Foot of the Loch Ness monster. I'm not making a positive claim. You are.

I'm not afraid of gay or transgender people. I'm also not willing to discriminate angainst an individual because of hypotheticals or outliers of others that are similar. I think most of the transgender scare is overwrought and exaggerated fears with little actual facts supporting it.

Maybe society should legalise rape and paedophilia? After all.. "...people are almost always trying to fit into their environment. They're not trying to cause issues" so it won't have any effect on the number of rapes or acts of paedophilia that take place will it? Most of those that would oppose such a move are just "overwrought" by the "exaggerated fears"

 

[acbytesla]

Very well, acbytesla. You don't know.

There are a lot of things I don't know. What's your point?

 

[acbytesla]

Maybe society should legalaize rape and paedophilia? After all.. "...people are almost always trying to fit into their environment. They're not trying to cause issues" so it won't have any effect on the number of rapes or acts of paedophilia that take place will it? Most of those that would oppose such a move are just "overwrought" by the "exaggerated fears"

Gender Dysphoria is not rape or pedophilia. Those involve predators.

 

[acbytesla]

For better and worse, the government heavily regulates medical care. For example, we do not allow people to sell drugs that are not demonstrated to be safe and effective, even if the buyer wants to take a risk.

Medical transition for minors has not been demonstrated to be safe and effective.

Yes it has.

Banning it for minors isn't fundamentally different than banning untested medication. If you don't like the government making medical decisions, well, this is a fringe part of that issue.

Treatment for precocious puberty isn't equivalent to treatment for gender dysphoria. This is another topic that has been dealt with at length already in this thread. I will just note that the entire point of using blockers for precocious puberty is that the effects aren't reversible. Stop taking the drugs, and you don't get precious puberty. That's a permanent effect, and it's both desired and beneficial. Halt regular puberty for any significant length of time (which is the norm for these treatments), and it will not resume as normal. Miss the window, and it's gone for good. And there are serious negative consequences of that.

It has been tested. And mental wellness is desired and beneficial.

 

[smartcooky]

Gender Dysphoria is not rape or pedophilia. Those involve predators.

Oh, so self ID by fiat is a form of gender dysphoria. Who knew?

And gender dysphoria is a mental illness. I know its not politically correct to say this, and that the ideologically captured will deny it, but its true. I'm sorry, but anyone who has a cock and balls who thinks he's a woman has a few screws loose. I don't hate these people, I feel sorry for them. They need treatment, not affirmation.