Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[angrysoba]

Given smartcooky’s stated opinions, I have been wondering about an anecdote he told a while back about a “real trans woman” who he knows from his pub quizzes. He apparently has friendly conversations with this trans woman who agrees with him that the TRAs are really out of control, etc…

Now, I wonder, and I can’t ask smartcooky directly because he has me on ignore, does smartcooky do his ideological duty to the 99.6% and bar the door of the ladies loo should the pub quiz transwoman attempt to use it?

(Actually I put this forward with a bit of trepidation as I realize that he might not do this at all, and that in the pub the transwoman is completely accepted as Joanna and nobody bats an eyelid when she uses the ladies. But by asking, smartcooky might feel like he now has to put his money where his mouth is.)

 

[theprestige]

Many folks here have said that they are just fine with laws or policies preventing employment discrimination against transgender people, but as soon as actual policies came up forcibly separating trans folk from active duty service (e.g. here in the U.S.) they either went mum or else switched sides and started arguing for employment discrimination against transgender employees under those specific circumstances.

I consider military service to be a special case, so no problems for me here.

 

[d4m10n]

I can see treating downrange combat duty as a special case, but not the folks manning desks at the logistics hub tryna get war materiel to the right place at the right time, nor the folks flying drones from a remote site in Nevada, nor the folks calculating orbital transfers for Space Force, nor the folks doing office work at the Pentagon. Those latter cases are all office jobs, and it's just fine if they need hormones or blood pressure meds on a daily basis.

 

[smartcooky]

Many folks here have said that they are just fine with laws or policies preventing employment discrimination against transgender people, but as soon as actual policies came up forcibly separating trans folk from active duty service (e.g. here in the U.S.) they either went mum or else switched sides and started arguing for employment discrimination against transgender employees under those specific circumstances.

I see no reason for the military to ban transgender people, although I cannot see why any transwomen would want to serve.

 

[theprestige]

I see no reason for the military to ban transgender people,

The military isn't a therapy service for people with gender dysphoria.

although I cannot see why any transwomen would want to serve.

Guaranteed government medical benefits for their mental health issues.

Wouldn't it be ironic if a man who's uncomfortable in his own body gets better military medical care than a man suffering from post traumatic stress disorder from his combat service to his country?

 

[smartcooky]

In reality...

TRA arguments are never based in reality!

 

[Ziggurat]

The right to be a dick to a transwoman because she thinks they are all cross dressing pervs is not a woman's right. That's a bigot's perceived privilege.

It’s not being a dick for a woman to not want a male in female-only intimate spaces.

 

[Thermal]

Let's skip over the fact that nobody can change sex and talk about the practicalities. I seem to have typed this so often it should be burned into my computer's memory.

How is anyone supposed to tell whether any given man has had his cock and balls cut off? Blaire White hasn't, for one. With clothes on, they look exactly as they always did. So are you advocating for "papers please!" or actual genital inspections?

In reality, if any special group of men has the legal right to use women's facilities, and can't be challenged, then no man can be challenged. All an interloper has to do is to claim to be a member of the special group, and knowing that that's what's going to happen, no challenge is possible. We're back to self-ID, and distressed women self-excluding.

How you doing on that evidence for your claims about AGP, Rolfe? After you deliver it, we can repeat for you the dozens of other times your questions were answered.

 

[Thermal]

It’s not being a dick for a woman to not want a male in female-only intimate spaces.

And again: restrooms are neither female only nor intimate spaces.

Youre up. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm mostly down with that. I'm just not feeling 100% that a public rest room is an intimate space.

It absolutely is. Women keep telling you it is. I don’t understand why you refuse to believe them that it is.

Yes, there are some feminine issues that require privacy in the name of modesty. An actual private single occupant room makes 1000% more sense to accommodate for such eventualities anyway,

Whether or not this is true, it’s not feasible as a general solution. We aren’t going to retrofit every single multi-occupant single-sex bathroom into a bunch of single occupancy bathrooms. That simply costs too much. So we have to deal with how to handle multi-occupant bathrooms, which are more efficient.

In broad brush, and with the stipulation that not all transwomen are Bryson, is that a workable compromise?

No. A workable compromise is to make some single-occupancy bathrooms available where feasible, but keep multi-occupant bathrooms single sex. Trans people who do not pass but are uncomfortable using the bathroom corresponding to their sex can use those. I think you will find Rolfe is not opposed to that. The TRAs are, though.

 

[Thermal]

It absolutely is. Women keep telling you it is. I don’t understand why you refuse to believe them that it is.

The women telling me this are a small handful who show abnormally extreme bias. I am acquainted with exponentially more women who do not share such views. Yet you think the posters ITT, dedicating years to not listening to others, are the One True Voice. Do you even hear yourself?

I think you will find Rolfe is not opposed to that. The TRAs are, though.

Ya I'm pretty confident that Rolfe can be guaranteed to not agree with TRAs on anything. Thanks, Cap'n Obv.

ETA: also Men Only, Women Only, and Others is probably the worst solution imaginable.

 

[Ziggurat]

ETA: also Men Only, Women Only, and Others is probably the worst solution imaginable.

First off, it's not men only, women only, and others. It's men only, women only, and then anyone single occupancy. Occasionally non-trans men and women may have caused to prefer the single occupancy room, not just trans people. Hell, you even think it's superior.

And what exactly is the problem with it? Lots of places do this already, I'm not hearing any problems it causes.

 

[bruto]

Not sure if this is the right forum for it, but I just noticed this:

US military spends eight times more on Viagra than gender-affirming care

In a hearing over the Defense Department's removal of transgender service members, a judge uncovered that the military spends $42 million a year on Viagra.

www.newsweek.com

But it makes me wonder about definitions. If boner pills aren't "gender-affirming care," what is?

 

[smartcooky]

The women telling me this are a small handful who show abnormally extreme bias. I am acquainted with exponentially more women who do not share such views. Yet you think the posters ITT, dedicating years to not listening to others, are the One True Voice. Do you even hear yourself?

Well the women telling me this are pretty much every woman I know - the four women I work with (26, 44, 45 and 61 yrs), the several women in my quiz/games group ranging in ages from 36 to 72 (and including one transwoman), my ex-partner, both of my daughters (in their early 40's both of whom have been confronted by verbally nasty and aggressive transwomen in women's safe spaces) all three of my granddaughters (14, 16 and 18). Every one of them rejects the idea of men in their safe spaces. I have never met a woman who would.
I guess you'll think all my friends are tranny bashing bigots.

 

[Pixel42]

Transpeople are less than half a percent of the population. The pervs are an even smaller percentage of them.

It's the percentage of the total male population that are pervs that's the problem. The fact that almost all women have experienced some kind of unwanted sexual attention should give you an idea of how high that percentage is. Many women and girls can't even walk past a building site without being perved on. All most pervs seem to require is the opportunity, and a reasonable chance of getting away with it. Self ID gives them both.

 

[smartcooky]

It's the percentage of the total male population that are pervs that's the problem. The fact that almost all women have experienced some kind of unwanted sexual attention should give you an idea of how high that percentage is. Many women and girls can't even walk past a building site without being perved on. All most pervs seem to require is the opportunity, and a reasonable chance of getting away with it. Self ID gives them both.

THIS!

 

[Aber]

The women telling me this are a small handful who show abnormally extreme bias. I am acquainted with exponentially more women who do not share such views. Yet you think the posters ITT, dedicating years to not listening to others, are the One True Voice. Do you even hear yourself?

Not supported by the data; see Table 13A
https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/crosstabs_Transgender_Issues_Issues_20240216.pdf
Allow transgender people to use bathrooms which match their gender identity rather than their sex:
Female: Support 33%, Oppose 48%

The issue in the US is this is very politicised - see the difference between Democrats (52% support) and Independents (30% support). Consider which bubble you live in.

 

[Rolfe]

How you doing on that evidence for your claims about AGP, Rolfe? After you deliver it, we can repeat for you the dozens of other times your questions were answered.

Dodge noted. My question had nothing at all to do with AGP. You've never answered that question because you can't.

 

[Rolfe]

It absolutely is. Women keep telling you it is. I don’t understand why you refuse to believe them that it is.

Whether or not this is true, it’s not feasible as a general solution. We aren’t going to retrofit every single multi-occupant single-sex bathroom into a bunch of single occupancy bathrooms. That simply costs too much. So we have to deal with how to handle multi-occupant bathrooms, which are more efficient.

No. A workable compromise is to make some single-occupancy bathrooms available where feasible, but keep multi-occupant bathrooms single sex. Trans people who do not pass but are uncomfortable using the bathroom corresponding to their sex can use those. I think you will find Rolfe is not opposed to that. The TRAs are, though.

I'm seriously thinking of using the single-occupancy toilet myself. If the men won't stay out of the women's facilities, it looks like the only way to find a male-free space. For all its disadvantages.

 

[smartcooky]

Not supported by the data; see Table 13A
https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/crosstabs_Transgender_Issues_Issues_20240216.pdf
Allow transgender people to use bathrooms which match their gender identity rather than their sex:
Female: Support 33%, Oppose 48%

The issue in the US is this is very politicised - see the difference between Democrats (52% support) and Independents (30% support). Consider which bubble you live in.

I listened to a very interesting podcast a few nights ago featuring Dr. Helen Joyce, Director of Advocacy at "Sex Matters".

She pointed out that when you ask the bare question "Do you support or oppose idea that transgender women should be allowed to use women's bathrooms?", you get a result such at that (in her case it was something like 52% oppose 29% support 18% didn't know or had no opinion). However, when you dig deeper, you find that almost all of the 52% know exactly what transwomen are, but a large part of the 29% and 18% don't - the vast majority thinking the term "transwoman" refers to a biological female who is transgender. When they are told this is wrong, and that "transwomen" are biological males", that 29% support collapses dramatically, and when you re-ask the question, you get more like 75% opposed.

 

[Rolfe]

Another thing that has been pointed out repeatedly.

 

[lionking]

Man, could we do without this kind of ◊◊◊◊◊◊ post as well.

Pretty sure that Thermal doesn’t mean the person has literally changed sex. He’s made it clear often enough in the thread that he doesn’t believe that can happen.

What he is obviously referencing is what those of us older than 45 called the operation when you had your bits cut off. These days the in-vogue terminology is gender-reassignment surgery, but k will bet any money that you, lionking, that Rofle, smartcooky and others will have used the term “sex change operation” in the past. Maybe as recently as when the Atheist started this thread.

In fact, I’ll warrant that plenty of people have moved all over the shop on this issue. So knock off the gate-keeping, son!

Talk about ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. The distinction between gender and sex is central to this thread. The term “sex change” as used by Thermal is wrong and displays ignorance.

And if you telling me how I should post is not gate-keeping by you, I don’t know what is, son.

 

[lionking]

By the way, accusations about bigotry and transphobia have been directed at me. I have always treated transgender people with acceptance and respect. My youngest daughter has just announced that her new partner answers to “they” and wants the family to meet her and partner Mica.

The entire family will accept Mica without doubt. This does not mean that my position on access to women’s safe places, sports, prisons, health services etc etc changes at all.

I believe this is the position nearly everybody holds. The “bigot” and “transphobe” slurs are almost always ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

 

[Rolfe]

I still want to know how we tell the difference between men who have had their bits chopped off and men who haven't, without the famed "genital inspections". I mean, I don't want any men in women's spaces, so it's not a pressing issue for me, but I do think it's incumbent on those who feel that a small subsection of men should have the right to over-ride sex segregation to tell us how we identify this small subsection.

 

[zooterkin]

Well the women telling me this are pretty much every woman I know - the four women I work with (26, 44, 45 and 61 yrs), the several women in my quiz/games group ranging in ages from 36 to 72 (and including one transwoman), my ex-partner, both of my daughters (in their early 40's both of whom have been confronted by verbally nasty and aggressive transwomen in women's safe spaces) all three of my granddaughters (14, 16 and 18). Every one of them rejects the idea of men in their safe spaces. I have never met a woman who would.
I guess you'll think all my friends are tranny bashing bigots.

There are quite a few women I know who have expressed dismay on Facebook about the recent Supreme Court ruling, with ages from 24 and up. They're mostly involved in the arts in some way (but that's not necessarily significant, as that's how I came to know them).

 

[smartcooky]

There are quite a few women I know who have expressed dismay on Facebook about the recent Supreme Court ruling, with ages from 24 and up. They're mostly involved in the arts in some way (but that's not necessarily significant, as that's how I came to know them).

Of course, I know OF women who hold Thermal's viewpoint, but I don't know any personally. Not a single person, male or female, not even the transwoman in my quiz/games group (who uses the mens), supports the idea that biological males ought to be allowed into female safe spaces. Not one!

 

[Rolfe]

My best friend does. She has been captured by a man who pretends to be a woman who is part of a science fiction writers' circle she has been a member of since about the year dot. I think he's ghastly. He's a city councillor in Glasgow for the Green Party and vehemently argues in council meetings that puberty blockers are safe, reversible and life-saving, with the most appalling slurs against anyone who dares to disagree. He was standing with a group of masked activists screaming "◊◊◊◊ you!" at women going into a conference about violence against women, apparently disagreeing with the conference only being open to women attendees. (He was not actually doing the screaming, but seemed entirely approving of those who were.)

I think she's suffering from an overdose of #bekind, also that there is a lot of pressure in that group to be trans-approving and that anyone who dissented would be ostracised. That can have a big subconscious effect. But mostly I think it's the glow of self-righteousness that motivates her. We just don't talk about it.

Video: Glasgow elects first ever transgender councillor Elaine Gallagher | Daily Mail Online

Glasgow's first trans councillor, Elaine Gallagher, responds to her win in the local elections , saying her win is 'incredible' but a huge responsibility. She was elected for the Scottish Greens in the Southside Central ward.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Rolfe]

Naomi Cunningham has the patience of a saint.

Gender doesn't matter | University of Strathclyde

www.strath.ac.uk

This one comment took me back to the beginning of this thread, when I was hounded out for not being willing to use incorrect pronouns for male people. "Be civil and polite!" "You are pre-judging the issue in favour of one side when you compel me to use the language being dictated by that side." That's roughly how it went.

Those who have trained themselves to say “trans woman” and “she” of men who say they are women really do seem to have disengaged their own ability to understand that such men are still — well, men.

This, near the end, is the central point, but the whole article is well worth reading.

 

[d4m10n]

The military isn't a therapy service for people with gender dysphoria.

This argument works for any workplace which doesn't happen to be a Gender Identity Development Service^WP.

 

[Ziggurat]

I can see treating downrange combat duty as a special case, but not the folks manning desks at the logistics hub tryna get war materiel to the right place at the right time

The folks that are manning the desks at a rear logistics hub can still be deployable to the desks at forward-deployed logistics hubs in combat zones, even if they are not anticipated to participate in combat themselves. In the military, you are supposed to be deployable even if you aren't in a combat role. The military could let celiac soldiers who work in, say, Washington DC provide their own gluten-free meals. But that's not enough, because they wouldn't be able to if deployed to a combat zone.

You can argue that the military should relax such requirements in general, but the trans issue is less of a special case than you seem to think.

 

[Ziggurat]

Many folks here have said that they are just fine with laws or policies preventing employment discrimination against transgender people, but as soon as actual policies came up forcibly separating trans folk from active duty service (e.g. here in the U.S.) they either went mum or else switched sides and started arguing for employment discrimination against transgender employees under those specific circumstances.

The military has long been recognized by the courts as being able to discriminate in ways that other employers cannot. Call it hypocritical if you like, but it's not new, and it's not peculiar to this issue.

 

[Thermal]

Not supported by the data; see Table 13A
https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/crosstabs_Transgender_Issues_Issues_20240216.pdf
Allow transgender people to use bathrooms which match their gender identity rather than their sex:
Female: Support 33%, Oppose 48%

The issue in the US is this is very politicised - see the difference between Democrats (52% support) and Independents (30% support). Consider which bubble you live in.

Right. Zig told me what "women were telling me", and I pointed out that the vast majority of women (who tell me stuff) were telling me something quite different.

 

[Thermal]

Talk about ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. The distinction between gender and sex is central to this thread.

That is literally the reason why I use the older term. The gender crew wanted a sex change operation called 'gender reassignment surgery', then they realized that didn't work either, so they now push 'gender affirmation surgery'.

But as you say, the distinction between gender and sex is critical. Gender is in your head, not between your legs, so I use the older term to push back against the blurring of the sex/gender line.

The term “sex change” as used by Thermal is wrong and displays ignorance.

No, there is no one on the planet with an IQ higher than his shoe size who believes that a cosmetic sex change operation literally changes your biological sex. Maybe you could google the term and see how common it is before saying something nnonsensical?

 

[Ziggurat]

Much as I disagree with @Thermal about so much in this debate, I don't see a real problem with him using the term "sex change surgery". Yes, the term is a misnomer, but it's a decades-long established misnomer, he didn't come up with it. I'd prefer some other more accurate term (my personal favorite is "sex denial surgery"), but there isn't a generally accepted one yet. I will fault him for a lot, but not for using what was once standard terminology.

 

[Thermal]

Dodge noted. My question had nothing at all to do with AGP. You've never answered that question because you can't.

You've been asked repeatedly to provide evidence for your AGP claims, that you said you had. I'm just reminding you that you seem to keep forgetting to provide it, before you change the subject. It's important, because it shows that you were not only lying (which we both knew), but that you knew you were lying, and you are still aware of it, and lack the integrity to admit it. I'll drop it now, since I've asked you a half dozen times and you still weasel. It's not a mistake or oversight. You knew you were lying about it, and won't be honest. Done and done.

To answer your question which has also been answered a dozen times: you don't need to know what's going on between their legs. Unless you are persuing them for sex, it doesn't matter, and is frankly pretty pervy to be as interested as you and others are.

You are not the Penis Police. Other people's genitalia are not your business.

 

[Ziggurat]

Right. Zig told me what "women were telling me", and I pointed out that the vast majority of women (who tell me stuff) were telling me something quite different.

Were any of them telling you that they were OK with Bryson being in their bathroom?

Hell, were any of them telling you that they were OK with males who have not had genital surgery or hormone therapy but merely identify as women being in their bathroom? Or was it just "transwomen"? Because we know the answers are frequently different to those questions.

 

[d4m10n]

The military has long been recognized by the courts as being able to discriminate in ways that other employers cannot.

I remember people saying this about keeping the gays out; it wasn't particularly persuasive at the time.

In the military, you are supposed to be deployable even if you aren't in a combat role. The military could let celiac soldiers who work in, say, Washington DC provide their own gluten-free meals. But that's not enough, because they wouldn't be able to if deployed to a combat zone.

Not everyone needs to be deployable at all times; it's okay for female soldiers to become pregnant, for example. That aside, if the only accommodation an individual requires is a bottle of pills, that's entirely commonplace and will not disqualify them from serving in most roles. It is very special pleading to pretend gender dysphoria is as debilitating as a serious autoimmune disorder, all the more so since no one is citing to any studies about whether the Biden-era policy actually caused any problems in the uniformed services.

 

[Thermal]

Were any of them telling you that they were OK with Bryson being in their bathroom?

No, because the one in a million freakshows are not high on their radar and I doubt they know who he is, and anyone who was aware of him probably wouldn't believe he is a transwoman, as the prison even said. He's not some murky enigma.

Hell, were any of them telling you that they were OK with males who have not had genital surgery or hormone therapy but merely identify as women being in their bathroom? Or was it just "transwomen"? Because we know the answers are frequently different to those questions.

I have asked my closer fam about that specifically, and they all say 'whatever'. One of my whelps claims to be on the nonbinary spectrum (but has strictly hetero long term monogomous relationships so i don't quite get it), and she says some people transition and some don't, either just being ok with their born bodies or due to financial constraints. Doesn't bother her one way or the other, and yes, transpeople frequent the night spots she hangs in.

 

[Ziggurat]

I remember people saying this about keeping the gays out; it wasn't particularly persuasive at the time.

The same argument can be wrong in one case and right in another. So that's not a persuasive counter-argument either.

Not everyone needs to be deployable at all times

If someone is never deployable, that's a problem. Hence, no celiacs.

That aside, if the only accommodation an individual requires is a bottle of pills

Generally speaking, it's not.

It is very special pleading to pretend gender dysphoria is as debilitating as a serious autoimmune disorder

There is nothing at all debilitating about celiac disease so long as one doesn't eat gluten. Which nobody actually needs to eat.

 

[Ziggurat]

No, because the one in a million freakshows are not high on their radar and I doubt they know who he is, and anyone who was aware of him probably wouldn't believe he is a transwoman, as the prison even said. He's not some murky enigma.

You say he's not a transwoman, but again, what exactly is the standard here? If you appeal to Potter Stewart again, I will take that as an admission that you don't actually have a standard. And without a standard, saying that Bryson isn't trans is merely special pleading.

I have asked my closer fam about that specifically, and they all say 'whatever'. One of my whelps claims to be on the nonbinary spectrum

Ah. Now so much of this makes sense. Now I get where your hostility to the pushback against trans activism comes from.

Your child isn't actually non-binary. They are merely non-conforming.