Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

I am not. What I have been saying from the very beginning is that I am trying to find a way to reasonably accommodate everyone, because I kind of like people and sympathize with the little guy/gal getting bullied for being different. The problem arises when the anti-trans side goes to extremes in order to represent the everyday, and it's true, the extremes have to be dealt with, which is the interesting and difficult part of this discussion. But the anti-trans side doesn't want to deal with the 99+% part, which is fairly benign and mostly the status quo anyway. They want to pretend Bryson is the norm, and start/end argumentation from there. Would it not make more sense to figure out how to maintain the staus quo, and focus on closing the loopholes for predators? I don't think that's as impossible as the anti-transers make it out to be.

I get that concern. But It's notable that when we (society) tried to end gay-bashing, we didn't try to use women as a shield - rather we tried to increase acceptance. 30 + years ago, of course, what we thought of as trans pretty much were gay men (some of whom have been retroactively "transed" - e.g. Marsha P. Johnson). I think there's a fair amount of folks who still think that way - not realizing that the heterosexual males who cross-dressed for sexual excitement now fall under the "trans-umbrella" (which d4m10n linked to upthread). It does seem that the recent increase in TW (at least among males >30) seem to be of the latter variety. Several years ago the Biden admin had a White House roundtable for Lesbian Visibility Day - at least 2 of the limited number of participants were male (Charles/Charlotte Clymer & Rachel Levine).

When it comes to acceptance - it's going to be quite different (from gay men), particularly due to the trans-activists claims. As I mentioned a couple pages ago, TW are never going to be accepted as a subset of women - that's not feasible (nor is there good support for the "born in the wrong body" hypothesis) There are plenty of folks who are anti-trans as a movement, but not as people.
 
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I get that concern. But It's notable that when we (society) tried to end gay-bashing, we didn't try to use women as a shield - rather we tried to increase acceptance. 30 + years ago, of course, what we thought of as trans pretty much were gay men (some of whom have been retroactively "transed" - e.g. Marsha P. Johnson). I think there's a fair amount of folks who still think that way - not realizing that the heterosexual males who cross-dressed for sexual excitement now fall under the "trans-umbrella" (which d4m10n linked to upthread). It does seem that the recent increase in TW (at least among males >30) seem to be of the latter variety. Several years ago the Biden admin had a White House roundtable for Lesbian Visibility Day - at least 2 of the limited number of participants were male (Charles/Charlotte Clymer & Rachel Levine).

When it comes to acceptance - it's going to be quite different, particularly due to the trans-activists claims. As I mentioned a couple pages ago, TW are never going to be accepted as a subset of women - that's not feasible (nor is there good support for the "born in the wrong body" hypothesis) There are plenty of folks who are anti-trans as a movement, but not as people.
I'm not even expecting transwomen to be accepted as women (I used 'women with an asterisk' as a descriptor earlier in the thread). They are not female, after all. But someone's biological sex is not something we deal with day-to-day much beyond our SOs, so I'm very inclined to treat them as what they say they are, because their DNA doesn't impact our interactions.

My argument here isn't for acceptance of transwomen as females, with all the female space passes that come with it. It's to not give women the right to say 'beat it you cross dressing perv' to a transwoman that is really not bothering anyone. That's not protecting women. That's protecting bigotry.
 
No I haven't. You read words like 'Self ID is sufficient to be acknowledged as transgender, but that doesn't grant bathroom access', and interpret that in whatever goofball way is rhetorically convenient. Bored out of my skull with it.
That is not the basis on which I say that you have supported self ID, this is:
ETA: I'll repeat this answer again to you: the women's room is for those who believe they are women.
The only reasonable way to read these words is self-ID. The fact that you are inconsistent is not my fault.
You want Potter Stewart invoked yet again?
I want you to say, in your own words, what YOU mean by "presents". "I'll know it when I see it" does not suffice, because different people's standards on this are not even remotely similar.

And even in regards to its original use, Stewart came to regret those words. This standard unsurprisingly did not last long (since it's unworkable), being supplanted by the Miller test. Stewart was essentially trying to dodge the issue, and your repetition of his words here is basically a confession that you are doing the same.
 
That is not the basis on which I say that you have supported self ID, this is:

The only reasonable way to read these words is self-ID. The fact that you are inconsistent is not my fault.
It's not inconsistent. You're just changing meanings to suit your arguments. As you say, we have been over this before. Rinse and repeat.
I want you to say, in your own words, what YOU mean by "presents". "I'll know it when I see it" does not suffice, because different people's standards on this are not even remotely similar.
Correct. We sometimes refer to such precise line drawing as a sea of gray issue. I'll explain it to you later.
And even in regards to its original use, Stewart came to regret those words. This standard unsurprisingly did not last long (since it's unworkable), being supplanted by the Miller test. Stewart was essentially trying to dodge the issue, and your repetition of his words here is basically a confession that you are doing the same.
Gray, Sea of. There are no possible lines to draw and you know it. That you rely so heavily on a precise paper bag test speaks volumes.

ETA: btw, the fact that it is impossible to objectively state a passing/sincerity line for a transwoman doesn't demand full acceptance of the bigotry line. That doesn't follow. At all.
 
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My argument here isn't for acceptance of transwomen as females, with all the female space passes that come with it. It's to not give women the right to say 'beat it you cross dressing perv' to a transwoman that is really not bothering anyone. That's not protecting women. That's protecting bigotry.
There are female spaces but transwomen are allowed to use them, provided they aren't "bothering" anybody, but presumably if a woman is saying beat it, she is bothered. A lot of work here is being done by your assumption that not accepting transwomen in female spaces is motivated by bigotry. Maybe if the woman said, "Beat it, ma'am," it would be acceptable?
 
There are female spaces but transwomen are allowed to use them, provided they aren't "bothering" anybody, but presumably if a woman is saying beat it, she is bothered. A lot of work here is being done by your assumption that not accepting transwomen in female spaces is motivated by bigotry. Maybe if the woman said, "Beat it, ma'am," it would be acceptable?
Rolfe has specifically argued that if you are a male, or ever were one (surgically transitioned), she still wants to give them the bum's rush because she feels it's proper. Nuff said.
 
It's not inconsistent. You're just changing meanings to suit your arguments.
I have done nothing of the sort. You just don't like being called on your inconsistencies and incoherence. And for you to accuse me of changing meanings when you refuse to even say what you mean is rich.
There are no possible lines to draw and you know it.
There are no possible lines to draw to achieve what YOU want. Which is why your approach is doomed to failure. There are very easy lines to draw in my approach.
 
I have done nothing of the sort. You just don't like being called on your inconsistencies and incoherence. And for you to accuse me of changing meanings when you refuse to even say what you mean is rich.
You have, and still do.
There are no possible lines to draw to achieve what YOU want. Which is why your approach is doomed to failure. There are very easy lines to draw in my approach.
Yes, blatant bigotry is simple to define and self-consistent to enforce. No argument there.
 
The mere presence of someone like Bryson is menacing in and of itself. Do you not understand that? And many WILL NOT leave if they are granted the legal right to be there. We have seen that already.

I'm reminded of the trans NHS doctor who refused to leave the women's changing room when a nurse came in who was dealing with a menstrual emergency and asked to be given privacy. Something any actual woman would have granted without even needing to be asked.
 
Rolfe has specifically argued that if you are a male, or ever were one (surgically transitioned), she still wants to give them the bum's rush because she feels it's proper. Nuff said.
So what's the dividing line for you? Surgically transitioned and you get the right to use the ladies' room? Or are we back to "not bothering anybody" being sufficient?
 
So what's the dividing line for you? Surgically transitioned and you get the right to use the ladies' room? Or are we back to "not bothering anybody" being sufficient?
I think if you have an actual sex change, then yes, access. It shouldn't even be an issue.

Still not sure on where the reasonable line should be for a transgender, especially given that one can't be objectively drawn. That's what is making me lean towards not codifying sex and gender (my earlier position that others here are aggressively talking me out of), but leaving them vague and continue with mob rule. I'd only want to insure that mob rule neither legally allows any woman to eject anyone she pleases for no reason, and that a woman is not charged with a hate crime for ejecting Bryson.
 
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You don'rt seem to understand the concept of "I'm out". See, if you pose a question, comment, or challenge to a poster that pings on their alerts, a reasonably polite poster will feel obligated to respond.

I don't. Well that was time well spent.

Because it is an ignorant, bigoted question that ignores the many pages of discussion, and indicates that you are so steeped in your willful ignorance that you do not understand anything that has been discussed, apparently for years, and probably won't understand if repeated yet again.

You say no one has provided a 'satisfactory answer'. That's because you are not satisfied with anything but a parroting of your own view. Again, that's your shortcoming, no one else's.
As I said.. Dodged.
 
Because we realized we were being total douchebags to a very small minority gtoup.
I disagree with the premise, but it's nothing you haven't heard before. So instead, I'm going to try something different: a good faith attempt to understand what you're talking about, and reach some kind of mutually acceptable compromise.

So.

What is the scumbaggery, total or otherwise, that you see in saying males should use the male restrooms, regardless of their gender presentation or gender identity?

Ya they want to feel normal, like you and I do when we use a restroom. Real ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊, right?
You're begging the questions that (a) this particular desire to feel normal is healthy and should be enabled, (b) that this particular approach, of of overriding sex segregation in restrooms whenever they want, is an effective solution, and (c) that the trade-off for women is worth it.

These are the three questions that most concern me, and for which you have no answers, only invective.

I'm willing to try to work out a solution, or at least what would be fair, even if it has little chance of happening.
What would a fair solution look like, to you?

To me, a fair solution would be to enforce sex segregation in public policy, and let women decide whether to make a fuss about transwomen who are attempting to pass and aren't being obnoxious to them. This was the status quo ante, and I think it served society well for many years.
 
You have, and still do.

Yes, blatant bigotry is simple to define and self-consistent to enforce. No argument there.
I note that you still make no attempt to define what you mean by "presents". You say you are attempting dialogue, but in fact you are refusing. What you really want is just to lecture the rest of us about how terrible we are.
 
I think if you have an actual sex change, then yes, access. It shouldn't even be an issue.
There's no such thing as an actual sex change. This side of the Singularity, sex is immutable. There is no plastic modifcation of the phenotype, no artificially induced hormonal imbalance, that turns a male into a female.
 
I think if you have an actual sex change, then yes, access. It shouldn't even be an issue.

Still not sure on where the reasonable line should be for a transgender, especially given that one can't be objectively drawn. That's what is making me lean towards not codifying sex and gender (my earlier position that others here are aggressively talking me out of), but leaving them vague and continue with mob rule. I'd only want to insure that mob rule neither legally allows any woman to eject anyone she pleases for no reason, and that a woman is not charged with a hate crime for ejecting Bryson.
You want to split the baby.

That cannot be done.
 
I disagree with the premise, but it's nothing you haven't heard before. So instead, I'm going to try something different: a good faith attempt to understand what you're talking about, and reach some kind of mutually acceptable compromise.

So.

What is the scumbaggery, total or otherwise, that you see in saying males should use the male restrooms, regardless of their gender presentation or gender identity?
Pretty much the same ones I've been saying. Rather than restating and rinsing and repeating, could you clarify exactly what you don't understand?
You're begging the questions that (a) this particular desire to feel normal is healthy and should be enabled,
I see no reason that it's not.
(b) that this particular approach, of of overriding sex segregation in restrooms whenever they want, is an effective solution
I don't know that we have unequivocal sex segregation (certainly don't in my state, codified in law)
, and (c) that the trade-off for women is worth it.
Women would be largely unaffected by it, insomuch as they have literally been doing it already for generations, just like the men have.

Unless you are assuming words that you are subtlety shoving in my mouth? What is the "trade-off" who's worth is being weighed, since you know I don't advocate pure selfID?
These are the three questions that most concern me, and for which you have no answers, only invective.
Ya for the thousandth time, I come to a discussion to discuss things I'm not entirely sure about, not to plant my flag and be belligerent.

I can't imagine why that simple concept is so far beyond the ken of posters here.
What would a fair solution look like, to you?
For everybody to STFU and take your piss and wash your hands without involving the Penis Police. I know, I'm a dreamer.
To me, a fair solution would be to enforce sex segregation in public policy, and let women decide whether to make a fuss about transwomen who are attempting to pass and aren't being obnoxious to them. This was the status quo ante, and I think it served society well for many years.
Agreed (as I keep saying) in all but the very first line. I don't think sex segregation is as crystal clear as we often assume. For restrooms, it has turned out to be about as clear as mud.
 
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For everybody to STFU and take your piss and wash your hands without involving the Penis Police. I know, I'm a dreamer.
Dreams, hallucinations....

I'm afraid the Penis Police (also know just as the police) are going to be necessary if you want to keep Bryson out of women's bathrooms and changing rooms.
I don't think sex segregation is as crystal clear as we often assume. For restrooms, it has turned out to be about as clear as mud.
No, sex segregation has been and remains perfectly clear. What has been muddy is the attempt to substitute gender segregation in place of sex segregation.
 
Dreams, hallucinations....

I'm afraid the Penis Police (also know just as the police) are going to be necessary if you want to keep Bryson out of women's bathrooms and changing rooms.
I don't want Bryson in the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ womens room or men's room either. I'd like him banned from any situation that he could be alone with a potential victim. How's that for what I think 'should' be?
No, sex segregation has been and remains perfectly clear. What has been muddy is the attempt to substitute gender segregation in place of sex segregation.
Gee, that's what some other remarkably good looking poster has been saying for many pages now, and getting a lot of pushback over it.
 
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I don't want Bryson in the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ womens room or men's room either. I'd like him banned from any situation that he could be alone with a potential victim. How's that for what I think 'should' be?
But you oppose the actual methods which would keep Bryson out of the women's bathroom. Hence, your incoherence.
 
But you oppose the actual methods which would keep Bryson out of the women's bathroom. Hence, your incoherence.
No, I oppose one: legalized bigotry, because it does much more than control Bryson's legally protected access, which I don't think he would have much regard for anyway. Your ' solution' is to be bigoted across the board.
 
No, I oppose one: legalized bigotry,
Yet more incoherence. You want sex segregation, but sex segregation is also bigotry and we shouldn't legalize it.
Your ' solution' is to be bigoted across the board.
My solution is sex segregation for intimate spaces. Call that bigotry all you want to, but it actually works pretty well.
 
Yet more incoherence. You want sex segregation, but sex segregation is also bigotry and we shouldn't legalize it.
No, the type Rolfe advocates is pure bigotry, and at an all-or-nothing choice between that and all access, I'd probably lean towards all access. We have it in my state, and have for years. If there has been a problem, the twitrerers have forgotten to tweet about it, which I find kinda low odds.
My solution is sex segregation for intimate spaces. Call that bigotry all you want to, but it actually works pretty well.
I'm mostly down with that. I'm just not feeling 100% that a public rest room is an intimate space. Like the Portland high school, there ain't much shared intimacy going on in a closed stall by yourself and washing your hands, and maybe touching up.your makeup.

Yes, there are some feminine issues that require privacy in the name of modesty. An actual private single occupant room makes 1000% more sense to accommodate for such eventualities anyway, as well as for the occasional Rolfe who can't bear the thought of them cross dressing pervs anywhere near her. In a place big enough for multi occupant restrooms, a single occupant divided off should be no big deal.

In broad brush, and with the stipulation that not all transwomen are Bryson, is that a workable compromise?
 
Btw: something that really should be repeated once in a while: I don't mean to be aggro with @Rolfe , @Ziggurat and others. We all get fired up and nasty in a heated subject, I'm no exception. Good vibes to all. No one here is actually a 'bad person', even if we disagree about what's best, which I am confident is all any of us want.
 
No, I oppose one: legalized bigotry, because it does much more than control Bryson's legally protected access, which I don't think he would have much regard for anyway. Your ' solution' is to be bigoted across the board.
Defending women's rights (one of which is the right to spaces safe from biological males) is bigoted and transphobic. Got it!
 
No, the type Rolfe advocates is pure bigotry, and at an all-or-nothing choice between that and all access, I'd probably lean towards all access. We have it in my state, and have for years. If there has been a problem, the twitrerers have forgotten to tweet about it, which I find kinda low odds.

I'm mostly down with that. I'm just not feeling 100% that a public rest room is an intimate space. Like the Portland high school, there ain't much shared intimacy going on in a closed stall by yourself and washing your hands, and maybe touching up.your makeup.

Yes, there are some feminine issues that require privacy in the name of modesty. An actual private single occupant room makes 1000% more sense to accommodate for such eventualities anyway, as well as for the occasional Rolfe who can't bear the thought of them cross dressing pervs anywhere near her. In a place big enough for multi occupant restrooms, a single occupant divided off should be no big deal.

In broad brush, and with the stipulation that not all transwomen are Bryson, is that a workable compromise?
How are you going to manage those occasions when there are or aren't feminine issues, intimidation, a requirement for privacy individually, and how will you know when or if they should or should not be applied?
Seems to me you are creating something that will be a nightmare to deal with, and imposing that something on 99.6% of the population for the benefit of 0.4% of the population. Not acceptable IMV.
 
How are you going to manage those occasions when there are or aren't feminine issues, intimidation, a requirement for privacy individually, and how will you know when or if they should or should not be applied?
Seems to me you are creating something that will be a nightmare to deal with, and imposing that something on 99.6% of the population for the benefit of 0.4% of the population. Not acceptable IMV.
{ETA: You keep saying imposing something on 99.6% of the population for the benefit of 0.4% of the population. First off, the men at 49% of the population are not affected at all. Of the 51% that are women, they don't run across that 0.4% hardly ever, and when they do, it's no different than when they run across any other member of the population. Nothing is being imposed that we all haven't been dealing with for years, except that some people want to treat tranny freaks like ◊◊◊◊ with legal.backing}

Honestly: when we say "transwoman", I think of the only one I know personally and the couple I've seen around. They are totally normal people, males who for all the world look and act like women. I don't think of them as freaky pervs. They're just some other people to me, like all the other people I come across. The only difference is they got a wire crossed up there somewhere.

I totally get the arguments you and others have put up (and they are very very different). I actually respect them all. But respecting someone's concerns doesn't mean they are the best choice in net.

Transpeople are less than half a percent of the population. The pervs are an even smaller percentage of them. There should be a way to make everyone reasonably comfortable here without flying off to the extremes.

On your side, women are put high on a pedestal. Despite my Southern chivalry, I look at women as my dead equals (as long as it isn't a physical contest), and what I put up with (like a transperson or natal woman in the men's room), I intuitively feel like women are strong and tough enough to handle without breaking a sweat. Hell, I'd expect that they might be less misogynistic and sexist than most men. It's not my perspective that they are the weaker sex and need to be protected from a man in a non combative situation. My mom, my wife, my daughters and my female acquaintances are forces to be reckoned with and will stare down anyone that thought they would intimidate them.

But as Emily's Cat says, sometimes it is a physical threat. What does the data tell us? It doesn't really happen. The pervs are perving with or without selfID access, and IRL we see that instances of creepiness and violence don't increase. That's something to consider, despite its counterintuitiveness.
 
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Defending women's rights (one of which is the right to spaces safe from biological males) is bigoted and transphobic. Got it!
The right to be a dick to a transwoman because she thinks they are all cross dressing pervs is not a woman's right. That's a bigot's perceived privilege.
 
Well, I for one am convinced Thermal's idea is a dead end.

The UK has already reinstated sex segregation as the standard. There seems to be zero appetite from either side to make the kind of compromise Thermal has in mind. Thermal himself can't figure out how to actually move it forward. Finally, we've already established that anti-TERF invective has no power here.
 
My state is wide open doors. No reported issues of any kind.

Tell me again how I just can't imagine what would work in the real world.
 
Similarly, the 51% of the human populaton who are biological females should not have to make adjustments to their rights in order to accommodate those narcissists with sexual paraphilias. Granting special rights to 0.4% of the population by trampling over the rights of the other 99.6% is completely unacceptable.
Again, arguing for sex segregation can be done without resorting to these types of bad arguments.

The arguments for sex segregation has nothing to do with the relative sizes of the populations.

The disabled make up a very small number of the population, but we shouldn’t say that accommodations for the blind, deaf and wheelchair-bound should provide no imposition on those who do not fall into these categories or that this is a problem for them and nobody else. That the blind, deaf and wheelchair blind should pay for their accommodations and not expect any tax-payer funding for them.

And again, I agree with keeping toilets sex-segregated and sports, etc… but do so for principled reasons, not for knee-jerk any-tool-will-do reasons.
 
Transfolk already enjoy the right to be free of discrimination in housing, employment, etc. on the basis of their gender. These and all the other rights they share in common with their fellow humans are well established in our laws, and nobody here dissents from this.
Many folks here have said that they are just fine with laws or policies preventing employment discrimination against transgender people, but as soon as actual policies came up forcibly separating trans folk from active duty service (e.g. here in the U.S.) they either went mum or else switched sides and started arguing for employment discrimination against transgender employees under those specific circumstances.
 
Gosh, I'm so glad I only wasted about three minutes sourcing the figures that debunk all that nonsense about trans-identifying men being several times more likely to be murdered than anyone else. Since it was obviously a complete waste of time.
 
If you do not know that a sex change is impossible you should not be posting here.
Man, could we do without this kind of ◊◊◊◊◊◊ post as well.

Pretty sure that Thermal doesn’t mean the person has literally changed sex. He’s made it clear often enough in the thread that he doesn’t believe that can happen.

What he is obviously referencing is what those of us older than 45 called the operation when you had your bits cut off. These days the in-vogue terminology is gender-reassignment surgery, but k will bet any money that you, lionking, that Rofle, smartcooky and others will have used the term “sex change operation” in the past. Maybe as recently as when the Atheist started this thread.

In fact, I’ll warrant that plenty of people have moved all over the shop on this issue. So knock off the gate-keeping, son!
 
Many folks here have said that they are just fine with laws or policies preventing employment discrimination against transgender people, but as soon as actual policies came up forcibly separating trans folk from active duty service (e.g. here in the U.S.) they either went mum or else switched sides and started arguing for employment discrimination against transgender employees under those specific circumstances.
Fact check: TRUE!
 
I think if you have an actual sex change, then yes, access. It shouldn't even be an issue.

Let's skip over the fact that nobody can change sex and talk about the practicalities. I seem to have typed this so often it should be burned into my computer's memory.

How is anyone supposed to tell whether any given man has had his cock and balls cut off? Blaire White hasn't, for one. With clothes on, they look exactly as they always did. So are you advocating for "papers please!" or actual genital inspections?

In reality, if any special group of men has the legal right to use women's facilities, and can't be challenged, then no man can be challenged. All an interloper has to do is to claim to be a member of the special group, and knowing that that's what's going to happen, no challenge is possible. We're back to self-ID, and distressed women self-excluding.
 

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