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Merged Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

theprestige said:
As to the idea that yes, a fighter at a disadvantage can out of desperation get a win... That's not good enough. There's a lot of risk involved, even in winning a fight. EC doesn't ever want to be in that position. "Don't lose hope, you always have a chance!" isn't helpful here.

Safety comes from having an overwhelming advantage. You're talking about mere chance of survival.
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Disagreed in toto, but that is probably another topic. If the reliance on "women are utterly helpless" is dropped, so will my counterassertion that it is utterly untrue.
 
Thermal said:
@Myriad and @theprestige : you both may truly feel that this toxic, pointless thread is more important than a fellow forumite. While this might not be the ideal time and place, there surely isn't a wrong time, if you take my meaning.

Yet it speaks directly to EC's claim, that women are so functionally helpless and overwhelmed that the threat of being overpowered is literally absolute. When the very 'stats' brought up to prove the threat is real literally refute that. The Seattle woman wasn't the only one who fought back and escaped.
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You're mansplaining desperate survival scenarios to someone who actually has to take them into account.
 
Thermal said:
I asked earlier about these gang showering escapades that were asserted to be so everyday. Pretty sure everyone who answered said 'yeah we don't do so', or 'my gym has privacy stalls'.
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Group showers seem to be something of a cultural atavism, at least where I live. Back when I was on swim team it was normalized, but now that my kids are swimmers the facility has privacy curtains. They didn't understand how anyone could've possibly made sport of pissing on a teammate who'd been foolish enough to close their eyes in exhaustion. That said, I doubt that all facilities have made this upgrade, our current aquatic center is particularly well-resourced.
Thermal said:
No idea, but as I said, I acknowledge that female specific need for both privacy from the general public, and a maybe a little help from other women who might be more compassionate, having been there themselves.
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I've been trying to come up with an analogy which works for males who've never experienced the vulnerability of being the "weaker sex," in the archaic parlance, so far to no avail. I don't think it's easy for people who've rarely been bullied to wrap their heads around what it feels like to live in fear of brute strength.
 
d4m10n said:
Group showers seem to be something of a cultural atavism, at least where I live. Back when I was on swim team it was normalized, but now that my kids are swimmers the facility has privacy curtains. They didn't understand how anyone could've possibly made sport of pissing on a teammate who'd been foolish enough to close their eyes in exhaustion. That said, I doubt that all facilities have made this upgrade, our current aquatic center is particularly well-resourced.

I've been trying to come up with an analogy which works for males who've never experienced the vulnerability of being the "weaker sex," in the archaic parlance, so far to no avail. I don't think it's easy for people who've rarely been bullied to wrap their heads around what it feels like to live in fear of brute strength.
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I still hold out hope that the human capacity for abstract reasoning and empathy will be enough to carry the argument.
 
d4m10n said:
Group showers seem to be something of a cultural atavism, at least where I live. Back when I was on swim team it was normalized, but now that my kids are swimmers the facility has privacy curtains. They didn't understand how anyone could've possibly made sport of pissing on a teammate who'd been foolish enough to close their eyes in exhaustion. That said, I doubt that all facilities have made this upgrade, our current aquatic center is particularly well-resourced.
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Agreed, and that's what I am literally asking about. Gang showers have seemed to largely gone the way of the dodo, AFAICT. and I'm asking if others are largely seeing something different, or is it just some bull ◊◊◊◊ rhetoric that functionally doesn't even exist anymore, or can be mitigated with some $2 curtains.

Eta: one of my kids swam competitively from grade school into college, and never experienced a gang shower at either home or away meets. Maybe the Brits still do? I dunno, I'm asking.
d4m10n said:
I've been trying to come up with an analogy which works for males who've never experienced the vulnerability of being the "weaker sex," in the archaic parlance, so far to no avail. I don't think it's easy for people who've rarely been bullied to wrap their heads around what it feels like to live in fear of brute strength.
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No need. I, like many guys, am well acquainted with being outnumbered by larger guys. We all know what being radically outgunned is all about. Although I don't see how any of that follows from the part of the post you were quoting?
 
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Thermal said:
No. I'm pointing out that the claim that it is not possible to not be overpowered is factually untrue, and not by noise range outlandish scenarios.
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The average woman is much smaller and has less muscle than the average man.

This is a fact. A fact that includes men who dress as women.
 
Thermal said:
No need. I, like many guys, am well acquainted with being outnumbered by larger guys. We all know what being radically outgunned is all about. Although I don't see how any of that follows from the part of the post you were quoting?
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I don't think the female need for "privacy from the general public" is predicated on precisely the same set of fears as what you describe here.

Try to imagine fearing something more intimately violative than a gang beatdown when only one well-built male walks into the room.
theprestige said:
I still hold out hope that the human capacity for abstract reasoning and empathy will be enough to carry the argument.
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Something something springs eternal.
 
Thermal said:
Disagreed in toto, but that is probably another topic. If the reliance on "women are utterly helpless" is dropped, so will my counterassertion that it is utterly untrue.
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yeah, probably another topic.

The reality is that women want safe spaces for reasons of dignity, privacy, and comfort. The fact that current conventions on safe spaces for women have a chilling effect on opportunistic predation contributes to the comfort provided by such spaces. Whether or not a given woman has a chance of surviving a determined attack isn't really relevant to the conversation at all.
 
theprestige said:
yeah, probably another topic.

The reality is that women want safe spaces for reasons of dignity, privacy, and comfort. The fact that current conventions on safe spaces for women have a chilling effect on opportunistic predation contributes to the comfort provided by such spaces. Whether or not a given woman has a chance of surviving a determined attack isn't really relevant to the conversation at all.
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Kinda sorta. I've lobbied for women to maintain a sex segregated space using almost the same words, modesty, privacy, and comfort. 'Dignity' is a bit problematic, but it's basically the same gig.

EC, however, fights hard for the fear of men justification. Her entire approach with her current line of Q&A with me hinges on it.

Again, there are different perspectives offered, and y'all keep jumping back and forth between being claiming to be united and having entirely different rationalizations.

Eta: Dignity, modesty, etc are basically a chivalrous approach, and although I'm a fan of chivalry, let's face it: it's sexist, relying entirely on women being weaker. Is that getting a little passé out here in the 21st century?
 
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A few pages back Rolfe hypothesized that some women may well think to themselves if I let a man look at me in an intimate situation, this is a signal I'm sexually available to him, and I don't feel like we've really taken that on board when trying to process why modesty matters more to some people than others. I suspect that this reaction isn't entirely culturally conditioned, but can be dialed up or down based on whether you grew up seeing more bikinis or burqas.
 
Thermal said:
Kinda sorta. I've lobbied for women to maintain a sex segregated space using almost the same words, modesty, privacy, and comfort. 'Dignity' is a bit problematic, but it's basically the same gig.

EC, however, fights hard for the fear of men justification. Her entire approach with her current line of Q&A with me hinges on it.

Again, there are different perspectives offered, and y'all keep jumping back and forth between being claiming to be united and having entirely different rationalizations.
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I think the fear of men that EC alludes to is justified. If nothing else, sports data tells us that men have an significant statistical advantage in any test of strength, speed, and endurance.

Responding with, "it's not that bad, you always have a chance" isn't really helpful. Women aren't looking for a chance to escape. They're looking for reasonable assurances that they won't be put in a position they need to escape from.

"You lost six teeth, one eye, and your cheekbone was shattered, but you managed to escape. See? There's always hope!"

"He broke your arm, but you managed to break free. See? There's always hope!"

"Good thing you got away and got help before you bled out from those stab wounds. See? There's always hope!"

Those aren't reassurances. They're jackassery.
 
theprestige said:
I think the fear of men that EC alludes to is justified. If nothing else, sports data tells us that men have an significant statistical advantage in any test of strength, speed, and endurance.

Responding with, "it's not that bad, you always have a chance" isn't really helpful. Women aren't looking for a chance to escape. They're looking for reasonable assurances that they won't be put in a position they need to escape from.

"You lost six teeth, one eye, and your cheekbone was shattered, but you managed to escape. See? There's always hope!"

"He broke your arm, but you managed to break free. See? There's always hope!"

"Good thing you got away and got help before you bled out from those stab wounds. See? There's always hope!"

Those aren't reassurances. They're jackassery.
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Agreed. Good thing that wasn't presented in any way shape or form, then.

You don't have the global comprehension issues that are so widely claimed in this particular thread, brah.

Eta: responding with "you know, you could use a lever and an inclined plane to move that insurmountably heavy box" is not really the kind of jackassery you strawmanned
 
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d4m10n said:
A few pages back Rolfe hypothesized that some women may well think to themselves if I let a man look at me in an intimate situation, this is a signal I'm sexually available to him, and I don't feel like we've really taken that on board when trying to process why modesty matters more to some people than others. I suspect that this reaction isn't entirely culturally conditioned, but can be dialed up or down based on whether you grew up seeing more bikinis or burqas.
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I'd agree, but I think that's an antiquated Victorian hang up and perspective, exactly what I was alluding to earlier
 
You, a man, have no idea how women think about this. It's a hard-wired instinct, not some prissy "ooh mum he saw my ankle" thing.

Women strongly desire to control who they have sex with. There are extremely good evolutionary reasons for this. Guarding oneself against being seen by strange men when in certain intimate situations is part and parcel of this. I'm trying to rationalise it to explain it, but it's not a rational decision. It's visceral.
 
Thermal said:
I'd agree, but I think that's an antiquated Victorian hang up and perspective, exactly what I was alluding to earlier
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I suspect that millions of years of evolution has a whole lot to do with these self-protective instincts, more so than prudishness.

Ninja'ed!
 
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varwoche said:
I suspect that millions of years of evolution has a whole lot to do with these self-protective instincts, more so than prudishness.

Ninja'ed!
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I'd suspect that it's a measure of each. We don't go out to dinner au naturelle, either. We have a kind of broad sense of decorum and propriety. But is there a line after which we are just being needlessly uptight?
 
Thermal said:
All right! I asked if there were stats, and smartcooky delivered the stats! Good job!

Soooooo... these are the statistics? Really? A dozen instances, spanning the globe? I note that a few are not even applicable: one is in a private home, one is a 9 yr old girl and a teenage girl in a hotel, one involves four women who got angry at another woman who was taking too long in the bathroom, a couple where it was not a bathroom attack, but an attack that ended up in a bathroom. But still, giving you a gold star and full credit for the whole dozen.
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What was it you said earlier... a bathroom is just a room?

Thermal said:
So your statistics on bathroom assaults are... a dozen, worldwide? Going back to .. ahem... 2019? Wow, that's dramatically less than I would have thought, and by orders of magnitude. Pretty much in the area of being struck by lightning? Lower, even?
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Stop being a dick! These were not all there were on the web, they were just the ones on the first page, but you knew that didn't you? You also know that rape and sexual assault are hugely under-reported - so these will just be a drop in the ocean.

smartcooky said:
But of course, none of this will move the needle for you. I'm sure you will manage to come up with some dumb-as-◊◊◊◊ pretext to handwave or spin these away.
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Yeah, looks like I was right... your post is fully of complete dumb****ery

Thermal said:
Would you like to discuss this further, or is it time to change the subject or slink away? Because I think the term 'Reading Comprehension: FAIL' is gonna be coming up.
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I have suffered no reading comprehension fail at all - you, on the other hand read with your eyes and mind closed and your ears plugged.

I fully understand where you are coming from. You are utterly dismissive of the fears and concerns of women. You would rather they just STFU. I'll bet you would love to go back to the time when women were silent, had no say and just kept the house clean and obeyed their men without question. Your posts in this thread absolutely reek of misogyny - you may not think they do, but they do.
 
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smartcooky said:
What was it you said earlier... a bathroom is just a room?
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Ya what I was looking for were statistics, so we could look at it like big boys and girls.
smartcooky said:
Stop being a dick! These were not all there were on the web, they were just the ones on the first page, but you knew that didn't you? You also know that rape and sexual assault are hugely under-reported - so these will just be a drop in the ocean.
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And utterly useless, in context.

I didn't even mention the funniest one: a transwoman in a men's room who asked another guy for a hummer, and was charged with sexual assault. I mean... this is what you come up with?

And misogyny... you are truly priceless.
 
d4m10n said:
What's the argument aside from chronological snobbery?
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Cultural evolution that has long left behind the idea of respectable women not being able to show their ankles in public? Broad trends that have for generations afforded women more freedom of presentation and liberal attitudes?
 
Thermal said:
Cultural evolution that has long left behind the idea of respectable women not being able to show their ankles in public?
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Chronological snobbery dressed up in the garb of cultural evolution can be seen for what it is in the changing room.
Thermal said:
Broad trends that have for generations afforded women more freedom of presentation and liberal attitudes?
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Freedom of presentation implies the ability to decide to whom they present, along with where, when and how.
 
d4m10n said:
Chronological snobbery dressed up in the garb of cultural evolution can be seen for what it is in the changing room.

Freedom of presentation implies the ability to decide to whom they present, along with where, when and how.
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Ok. Do their personal decisions dictate societal accommodations? Cuz those same people seem.pretty adamant that the trans people don't have that privilege. One way street, maybe?
 
varwoche said:
You could make an argument that women's concerns are unfounded without taking the leap to "transphobe". But no, you presume the worst, casting differing opinions in the worst possible light. Highly unimpressive.
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I'm not saying their concerns are totally unfounded. I'm saying that the recent "trans panic" is over the top and transphobia is the reason.
 
Thermal said:
Fair. But we are trying to work out where the broader societal lines should be, yeah? Some people's ideas may be found inconducive to societal goals.
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I for one am not at all interested in working out where the broader lines should be.

I think the broader lines are fine exactly where they are.

I'm trying to work out if there's any plausible reason why transwomen should be entitled to cross those lines.

You're trying to address that by suggesting women need to redraw their lines to better accommodate transwomen. Without having answered the actual question - is it necessary?
 
theprestige said:
I for one am not at all interested in working out where the broader lines should be.

I think the broader lines are fine exactly where they are.
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Really? Because broadly, transwomen have a lot of open doors. All over my state, everywhere. Lia Thomas' women's swim records are proudly displayed at UPenn. And the courts of most states are falling in line in greater numbers: if gender equals sex, and you can't discriminate by gender or sex, than there are no sex segregated spaces.
theprestige said:
I'm trying to work out if there's any plausible reason why transwomen should be entitled to cross those lines.
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Look around. Dey dun been crossed.
theprestige said:
You're trying to address that by suggesting women need to redraw their lines to better accommodate transwomen. Without having answered the actual question - is it necessary?
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it's necessary to clean this up right pronto, and codify sex segregated spaces and their limitations.
 
Rolfe said:
There will never be the statistics Thermal seems to want. Nobody is going to be able to show that one in however many women going into a public toilet is sexually assaulted by a trans-identifying man. And if they could, the ratio would be so low as to be able to be mocked. All anyone can do is search press reports to find examples, and no number of examples will be enough for men determined never to see anything from a woman's perspective.
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Applicable to @Thermal, @Mycroft, @acbytesla, and others. That has become clear over the last few weeks of their posting here. Its clear that they neither care, nor want to care.


Rolfe said:
I don't want to have to rely on my ability to fight off a man. I don't want him there in the first place.

Here's the Dolatowski case to add to the collection.

metro.co.uk

Transgender woman, 18, sexually assaulted girl, 10, in Morrisons toilet

Katie Dolatowski was spared jail despite a similar attack weeks earlier.
metro.co.uk metro.co.uk

As a counter to that stupid mouse-ears picture the papers keep publishing, here's what Dolatowski actually looks like.

View attachment 60101

There has never been a picture of him without the hair all over his face (and often he has a mask on), but you get the idea. Look how he towers over the two female prison officers given the job of handling him.
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Here is another example that points up the complete BS @Thermal is spouting - 'you'll just have to fight them off' is a complete BS argument - yes @Thermal, that is the argument you are making, whether you understand it or not. Pound-for-pound, men have more than 250% the punching power of women. My girls are both about 5'6" and 8½ to 9 stone. Neither of them would have had the proverbial snowball's chance in hell of fighting off this guy. One punch would have been enough to knock them from here to next Christmas.
 
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Thermal said:
I'd love to say this makes less sense than any other post here, but...
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There is a court judgement due tomorrow morning which is critical in this debate. It's happening in London, but it will have ramifications across the globe. Everyone who is up to speed on this issue, on either side, is counting the hours. Telling that you have no idea.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1910272949350695371

www.crowdjustice.com

UK Supreme Court: The Definition of Sex in the Equality Act

For Women Scotland was founded in 2018 and campaigns to protect and strengthen women’s rights.
www.crowdjustice.com www.crowdjustice.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1912081854393430033


1744751754320.jpeg
 
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acbytesla said:
Yes they do. They know very well. The popularity of this thread confirms it.
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The popularity of this thread does not stem from "trans panic" ( (:rolleyes: whatever the hell that is supposed to mean)... it stems from the vile statements of a few TRA misogynists calling normal people "bigots" and "transphobes" for defending the rights of women.
 
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