Cont: Transwomen are not women - part 13

[smartcooky]

Not if the sample proves to be representative of the relevant population; it's easy to get highly significant p-values with n=200.

Its not.

There is obvious pre-selection bias, and as Zig points out, subjects for whom they have "no information" could easily be a "yes", but are assumed to = "no" by default.

IMO, that link is a crap analysis

 

[d4m10n]

That study is far too short of a timescale to really tell. You really want to follow up in later, well into adulthood. Furthermore, they did not even ask the patients if they regretted the decision, they only concluded that if that information was already in their patient records independently from the study. If patients didn't talk to their provider about regret, or if they changed providers, then they won't show up in that statistic. I would say that's a lower limit, but by no means would I conclude the regret rate is known to be that low. It could be considerably higher.

This is all correct, AFAIK. All I have to add here is that the number of qualifying patients (transgender adolescents seeking double mastectomy) who can be contacted "well into adulthood" is actually fairly small, both because the population of transgender adolescents was fairly small until fairly recently and because they were not offered gender affirming surgical interventions until fairly recently.

IMO, that link is a crap analysis

Let us know if you find a better one.

 

[Samson]

The Ashley Winter in this story is a "transwoman".
Intact male.
Respectfully not being "misgendered" by the New Zealand authorities and media.
It is the worst murder story I have ever encountered.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime...ds-before-hanging/KCTMICW4BJAA3N4EXYADNHCDEM/

I only just got to grips with this story, it seems to represent the most evil misogyny or something, and to realise this method of official lying is baked permanently into the New Zealand experience is world view changing to me.

 

[smartcooky]

This is all correct, AFAIK. All I have to add here is that the number of qualifying patients (transgender adolescents seeking double mastectomy) who can be contacted "well into adulthood" is actually fairly small, both because the population of transgender adolescents was fairly small until fairly recently and because they were not offered gender affirming surgical interventions until fairly recently.

Let us know if you find a better one.

No information at all is better than wrong or misleading information

 

[smartcooky]

The Ashley Winter in this story is a "transwoman".
Intact male.
Respectfully not being "misgendered" by the New Zealand authorities and media.
It is the worst murder story I have ever encountered.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime...ds-before-hanging/KCTMICW4BJAA3N4EXYADNHCDEM/

I only just got to grips with this story, it seems to represent the most evil misogyny or something, and to realise this method of official lying is baked permanently into the New Zealand experience is world view changing to me.

Christ on a ******* bike!!!

THESE are the sorts of sub-human scum who should never see the outside of a prison cell for the rest of their lives.

 

[Samson]

Christ on a ******* bike!!!

THESE are the sorts of sub-human scum who should never see the outside of a prison cell for the rest of their lives.

Ok so 2 of 2 we were not aware.
This should be a tough one for self sex ID law amongst the multiple issues of race, social media and gangs.

 

[Samson]

This new video describes, and minute 5 is fine, how trans women are invading traditional female domains.


https://youtu.be/MpAFuYluKkQ

They thank GB news.
Execrable no doubt.

I implore critical thinking folk to watch to the end.

 

[Samson]

I am so confident in the body of work of these two specialists in trans ideology, I am posting this link while watching myself.

Stella O'Malley from Ireland and Sasha Ayad from Texas.


The most important thing is to construct a well founded opposing view. That is science I think.
https://youtu.be/mpAlk1FWLr0o

 

[Samson]

I am listening and realising this is a dead end for humanity.
Sorry.

 

[Samson]

Minute 25 is representative of elimination of the parent.

 

[Samson]

Desist then reenlist.
WTF

 

[gnome]

Telling a kid that they were born in the wrong body is child abuse.

Who's doing that?

Goalpost move in 3...2...1...

 

[IsThisTheLife]

I have opinions and speculations.

First off, I doubt it was illegal for this pensioner to purchase lingerie when they were younger. They might have gotten some weird looks... but seriously? Was it actually completely unheard of for a male to purchase undergarments for their spouse? I think there are probably lots of ways that this male could have legally purchased female undergarments, and the claim that they were "forced" to steal them seems like some post-hoc rationalization to me.
Secondly... apparently Idan's "journey" of understanding the experiences of the people they are supposed to protect doesn't extend to females. Somehow, the lived experiences of females seems to have not made it onto their radar.

Of course there are (ETA > and always were - mail order didn't exist in the late 20th C.? ETA 2 > which is actually how a large proportion of 'lingerie' was once and still is bought by people too embarrassed to walk into Ann Summers), and of course it is. The real thrill is in acquiring and wearing a woman's clothes, not womens' clothes.

 

[theprestige]

Who's doing that?

Goalpost move in 3...2...1...

Literally anyone who prescribes or approves trans-affirming surgery for a minor child.

 

[Ziggurat]

Of course there are, and of course it is. The real thrill is in acquiring and wearing a woman's clothes, not 'women's clothes'.

Hence Sam Brinton. He was stealing women's clothes in 2022. It wasn't about not being able to get clothes legally, it wasn't even about the money. It was about the thrill.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

Hence the used-pantie vending machines in Japan.

All of this gives new meaning to 'Scent Of A Woman'.

 

[gnome]

Literally anyone who prescribes or approves trans-affirming surgery for a minor child.

I don't think that's an honest description at all, as it implies that the medical practitioner is telling the patient how they feel, instead of the reverse.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't think that's an honest description at all, as it implies that the medical practitioner is telling the patient how they feel, instead of the reverse.

Well, no. There's a difference between feeling like you were born in the wrong body and actually being born in the wrong body. When a medical professional approves surgery, they're saying that it's not just a feeling, it's a fact. They are indeed telling children that they were born in the wrong body.

 

[Elaedith]

There are basically two obvious possible explanations for why kids don't get off puberty blockers once put on. One possible explanation is that the screening process works, so only kids for whom the treatment is appropriate go on them in the first place. The other is that being on puberty blockers locks the kids into the transition path. Given that the screening process was not refined over time to reach that virtually 100% state, I find the latter explanation much more likely than the former.

Now, as to the detransition rate for such kids, that's a harder question, because nobody has really looked at it. If you go on puberty blockers, transition to cross-sex hormones, and then detransition later, many of those studies I mentioned wouldn't pick you up. And there's been almost no long-term studies of what happens to these kids. Furthermore, the detransition rate for kids who have gone through with treatment may be different than what the detransition rate for those same kids would have been had they not gone through treatment. The treatments cause irreversible changes. I have to wonder how many regret transition but don't detransition because they can't fully go back to their natal sex. Or even if they don't regret it, how many would have still accepted their natal sex if not pushed through the medical path early.

If gender dysphoria resolves or children move away from a cross-sex identity without transitioning, this is usually referred to as desistance. It's important to distinguish them, because activists often try to claim that low rates of detransitioning discredit earlier desistance studies.

For example, this paper Gender Identity 5 Years After Social Transition showing that almost all (94%) of children who were socially transitioned by their parents retained their transgender identity five years later has recently been used to claim that earlier studies showing high rates of desistance are not reliable. What that claim ignores is that the earlier studies looked at desistance before gender affirmation and transitioning (either social or medical) were the norm. The high desistance rates come from studies primary using 'watchful waiting'. Clinicians such as Zucker have been arguing for some time that social transition is a form of intervention that consolidates cross-sex identity and increases persistence of dysphoria.

For some time, activists argued that the earlier studies were 'discredited' because the children who desisted 'weren't really trans', despite re-analyses of the data that showed high desistance rates amongst children who did meet diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria. They also tried to argue that where children were diagnosed, the wrong earlier version of the DSM was used (although the diagnostic criteria in DSM-IV are not substantially different from DSM-5).

Now they want to argue that the earlier studies are discredited because children weren't assessed or diagnosed properly, but simultaneously claim that a study showing extremely high persistence in children who were socially transitioned by their parents without necessarily having any clinical evaluation or diagnosis of dysphoria at all, persist in their identity because gender identity is stable from a early age. These can't both be true.

 

[Ziggurat]

Clinicians such as Zucker have been arguing for some time that social transition is a form of intervention that consolidates cross-sex identity and increases persistence of dysphoria.

How could it possibly be otherwise?

 

[d4m10n]

No information at all is better than wrong or misleading information

If we're going to discuss regret rates for various medical or surgical interventions on a given patient population (i.e. adolescent transitioners) we need to look at scientific studies which attempted to estimate those rates. This is the best one I've found on mastectomies so far, despite the timeline and loss to follow-up constraints; it allows us to compute both upper and lower bounds.

Literally anyone who prescribes or approves trans-affirming surgery for a minor child.

When a minor child receives cleft palate surgery, we do not assume any medical professionals told them they were born in the wrong body beforehand.

 

[theprestige]

I don't think that's an honest description at all, as it implies that the medical practitioner is telling the patient how they feel, instead of the reverse.

It's the medical practitioner telling the patient that their feeling is an accurate description of reality.

I went into the ER this weekend with pain in my left arm. As a middle-aged male, I was concerned about possibly having a heart attack. They took some measurements and ran some tests, and told me my heart was fine. The pain was probably no big deal. Maybe I pinched a nerve, or slept wrong. As long as it went away on its own (which it did), there was nothing to worry about.

At what point did they tell me how I felt, instead of letting me tell them I thought I might be having a heart attack? Were they supposed to reify my suspicions, and begin treating me for heart failure? Or were they supposed to examine me, and provide a diagnosis and a course of treatment that best matched my condition rather than how I felt about my condition?

 

[theprestige]

When a minor child receives cleft palate surgery, we do not assume any medical professionals told them they were born in the wrong body beforehand.

Analogies don't work on me.

 

[d4m10n]

Analogies don't work on me.

What makes you assume prescribers and surgeons are doing this to their trans patients but not other minors who—in their medical judgement—require irreversible treatments?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[Ziggurat]

If we're going to discuss regret rates for various medical or surgical interventions on a given patient population (i.e. adolescent transitioners) we need to look at scientific studies which attempted to estimate those rates. This is the best one I've found on mastectomies so far, despite the timeline and loss to follow-up constraints; it allows us to compute both upper and lower bounds.

I really don't see how you get an upper bound from that study.

When a minor child receives cleft palate surgery, we do not assume any medical professionals told them they were born in the wrong body beforehand.

We don't need to assume that, because we all agree that it's true regardless of who tells who what. That's the entire point of doing the surgery: the child's palate shouldn't be cleft, and the child no doubt knows that without being told.

 

[Ziggurat]

What makes you assume prescribers and surgeons are doing this to their trans patients but not other minors who—in their medical judgement—require irreversible treatments?

Congratulations, you just proved that there are some unstated conditionals on Trausti's claim. So we can modify that to it being child abuse to tell a child they were born in the wrong body when you cannot actually correct this claimed mistake.

And make no mistake, "gender affirming" surgery, which really should be called sex denying surgery, cannot actually correct the alleged mistake behind gender dysphoria. It cannot actually turn women into men or men into women.

 

[d4m10n]

I really don't see how you get an upper bound from that study.

Assume everyone lost to follow up experiences regret.

We don't need to assume that, because we all agree that it's true regardless of who tells who what.

Hard disagree. Saying that someone has a condition which is impairing QoL isn't the same as the bizarre metaphysical claim that they have a gendered soul which was somehow implanted in a body with the wrong sex.

 

[theprestige]

What makes you assume prescribers and surgeons are doing this to their trans patients

I don't assume that. I am paraphrasing the TRA orthodoxy as I currently understand it.

I take Trausti's statement to be applicable to the TRA orthodoxy, about which I am not going to argue semantics with gnome.

I also take Trausti's statement to be applicable to people who explicitly reify the idea of being born in the wrong body, such as medical practitioners who diagnose gender dysphoria in minors and prescribe gender-affirming surgery for it. On that point, I don't see much room for semantic quibbling. But somehow here we are. I'm going to go ahead and leave you here, and move on.

 

[gnome]

It's the medical practitioner telling the patient that their feeling is an accurate description of reality.

I went into the ER this weekend with pain in my left arm. As a middle-aged male, I was concerned about possibly having a heart attack. They took some measurements and ran some tests, and told me my heart was fine. The pain was probably no big deal. Maybe I pinched a nerve, or slept wrong. As long as it went away on its own (which it did), there was nothing to worry about.

At what point did they tell me how I felt, instead of letting me tell them I thought I might be having a heart attack? Were they supposed to reify my suspicions, and begin treating me for heart failure? Or were they supposed to examine me, and provide a diagnosis and a course of treatment that best matched my condition rather than how I felt about my condition?

My point is that the original statement presumes that doctors are telling people to get gender affirming treatment without being asked. I'm not convinced that is the case--at most I think they are making the patient aware of it as an option. But if there is information otherwise I'm happy to review it.

 

[Trausti]

Who's doing that?

Goalpost move in 3...2...1...

That’s the whole point of puberty blockers.

 

[theprestige]

My point is that the original statement presumes that doctors are telling people to get gender affirming treatment without being asked. I'm not convinced that is the case--at most I think they are making the patient aware of it as an option. But if there is information otherwise I'm happy to review it.

I guess we have that goalpost move you were predicting.

 

[Ziggurat]

Assume everyone lost to follow up experiences regret.

Why only them? It's possible that people who weren't lost and currently don't regret will end up regretting later on. And as previously mentioned, it's possible that people regret but just didn't tell their providers. They aren't lost to follow up, they just never volunteered that information, and they were not specifically asked. No patients in this study were actually excluded from possibly having regret. Logically speaking, the regret rate could still be 100%. I doubt the actual number is anywhere near that high, but the study doesn't provide an upper bound constraint.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Hence Sam Brinton. He was stealing women's clothes in 2022. It wasn't about not being able to get clothes legally, it wasn't even about the money. It was about the thrill.

I think you meant to say "they were stealing women's clothes in 2022". According to the Wikipedia page for Sam Brinton, he uses they use they/them singular pronouns.

I've got to admit to wanting to link to this Wikipedia article since it my first time to see a longer example of written prose that attempts to use singular they/them pronouns.

 

[gnome]

I guess we have that goalpost move you were predicting.

How so? I'm explaining where I view the goalposts being in the first place.

At this point it's getting uselessly nitpicky though and I don't know if it can progress. Take it as a win if you want.

 

[HansMustermann]

Look, here's an honest question from someone who was literally raised to be the opposite gender: what does "feeling like a girl/guy/whatever" even MEAN? How would you KNOW?`Not trolling, 100% honest question that decades later I'm still struggling with.

Like, literally, I was dressed in girl clothes since I could first walk, because grandma wanted a granddaughter, I was supposed to introduce myself as a girl, etc. Eventually I kinda noticed I was feeling more at home as a girl, so to speak, since that was what I was raised as. I fantasized about some medicine to turn me into an actual girl before I saw any anime on the topic.

Does that mean "I felt like a girl"?

How would I KNOW?

I don't actually know what a girl feels like. Not just, say, what a menstruatiob feel like. Like, even, would an actual girl think X about situation/event Y? I don't know. I don't actually know what a girl is educated like. The same grandma which eventually went all the way to encouraging me to have phone sex as a girl (yeah, she was deranged) didn't have the same attitude towards my actually female mother.

Did I ever "feel like a girl"? How would I KNOW?

It's like someone who's always been raised with all the lights on, deciding they know what it's like to go out at night. No, you DON'T know.

 

[theprestige]

How so? I'm explaining where I view the goalposts being in the first place.

At this point it's getting uselessly nitpicky though and I don't know if it can progress. Take it as a win if you want.

Sorry, I was being unnecessarily snarky.

No, I'm not saying medical practitioners are recommending gender-affirming surgery without being asked. I'm saying they're reifying the idea of being born in the wrong body, when asked.

And I'm saying that the trans rights activist movement is pushing this idea without being asked.

Kids are being told, generally, by TRAs that being born in the wrong body is a thing. You can be a female in a male body.

Kids that express genderqueer tendencies, or report genderqueer feelings, are being told by their teachers, by their parents, etc. that being born in the wrong body may be or is the explanation for what they are expressing and feeling.

Kids that are diagnosed with dysphoria and prescribed gender-affirming treatments are being told that "born in the wrong body" is in fact the correct explanation for what they are feeling or expressing.

I hope this fully answers your question about who is telling kids that they are born in the wrong body. Whether or not such telling constitutes child abuse, as Trausti says, is up to you to decide. I'm inclined to agree with Trausti's view.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Look, here's an honest question from someone who was literally raised to be the opposite gender: what does "feeling like a girl/guy/whatever" even MEAN? How would you KNOW?`Not trolling, 100% honest question that decades later I'm still struggling with.

I've asked this question many, many, many times and gotten nothing but silence or "You know, you just don't know that you know because your gender/sex/gender identity/gender soul matches up."

Or just something that is functionally nothing but "I want to be the other sex but that doesn't sound grandiose enough."

It's a question I too would love an answer to, but feel one will not be coming.

 

[Ziggurat]

I think you meant to say "they were stealing women's clothes in 2022". According to the Wikipedia page for Sam Brinton, he uses they use they/them singular pronouns.

No, I definitely meant to say "he". He's quite obviously male, and other than wearing stolen women's clothing and putting on lipstick, has done nothing to transition. And the membership agreement does not require me to use his preferred pronouns since he's not a member here. So I choose to use pronouns which most accurately describe him, because I don't give a **** about his feelings and I've got no reason to bend over backwards to be polite to a thief and a liar.

I've got to admit to wanting to link to this Wikipedia article since it my first time to see a longer example of written prose that attempts to use singular they/them pronouns.

And it's awkward as ****, isn't it?

 

[Samson]

I've asked this question many, many, many times and gotten nothing but silence or "You know, you just don't know that you know because your gender/sex/gender identity/gender soul matches up."

Or just something that is functionally nothing but "I want to be the other sex but that doesn't sound grandiose enough."

It's a question I too would love an answer to, but feel one will not be coming.

The answer is that you are climbing a ladder, but you are on the wrong wall.
The question is that ridiculous. If the farmyard chicken has no need for the answer why would you have such a need?

 

[Samson]

Thread title is officially wrong.
Trans woman wins Miss Netherlands.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/post...-miss-netherlands-sparking-outrage-on-twitter

She is a real cutie.