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Today's Republicans are not "conservatives".

JoeMorgue said:
Ah the "You left me no choice, it's really your fault." excuse.
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You misunderstand. I'm blaming the GOP, not the DNC. Progressives are progressive. It's in their nature; I don't begrudge them that.

I'm conservative, it's in my nature. I'll vote for a conservative candidate if there is one. I don't expect the DNC to offer up a conservative candidate. If, by some twist of fate or freak political storm they do, I'd probably vote for that candidate.

Progressives have a major party they can vote for, and be reasonably assured that their candidate will advance a progressive agenda, in addition to all the usual corruption and criminal activity career politicians get up to.

Conservatives in America don't have that luxury. The best we can hope for is a GOP candidate who will counterbalance some progressive efforts purely as a knee-jerk reactionary vote. They won't really try to advance a conservative agenda, or even have any concept of what principled conservatism might look like. The silver lining here is that inaction tends to suit conservatism. Even knee-jerk reactionary deadlocks have some value.

I'm not asking the DNC, as the "progressive" party, to offer me conservative policy proposals that I can vote for. I'm just frustrated that there's no real "conservative" party to counterbalance it.
 
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theprestige said:
I'm extremely conservative-minded. My dilemma in 2016 was that the GOP isn't very conservative-minded, and the DNC even less so. Trump's appeal to me was not that he was conservative-minded (I didn't think he was), but that, whatever his other deficiencies in common with career politicians, at least he was an outsider. Substituting a jackass from outside the political establishment for the usual establishment jackass seemed like the lesser of two evils at the time. I'm still not convinced it wasn't. My position then and now is that Donald Trump indulges in all the same corruption and and commits all the same crime as his political establishment counterparts. It's just that since he's an outsider he doesn't have the political establishment political-media complex running cover for his antics. And he's too much a jackass to run his own cover.

Anyway, this time around I'll probably voting for Biden, for two reasons. The first is that I feel the country tends to muddle along just fine, regardless of which faction controls the presidency. Most of the jackassery emanates from Congress, from both sides of the aisle.

The second reason is that I think that, unlike America, Ukraine really is in a period of crisis, that needs prompt and significant action. I think that a Democrat president is more likely to tip the scales of Congress in favor of Ukraine, and more likely to use his executive powers to help Ukraine.

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At the risk of piling on, the highlighted is one reason you'll never have a conservative party worth the title. You're not able to face the realities that have made the GOP the way they are and you still provide them cover.

The highlighted is not just wrong, it is plainly wrong in a huge way that isn't reasonably arguable. Now instead of getting into the woods on which major party is more prone to criminality in office (it's not close; it's the GOP), Trump is orders of magnitude worse than even most of the GOP.

No one else has taken so many documents of such grand importance and then not only refused to return them when subpoenaed, but lied about it and covered it up. No one else (in modern times at least) organized fake electors. No one else (again, in modern times) organized a rally that they then sent to the Capitol knowing they were armed and angry. No one ever violated the emoluments so brazenly.

This isn't a close call. This isn't a case for nuance. Wherever the line of 'normal corruption and crime is' for politics in the US Trump is so far beyond it he has almost crossed it twice.

If you cannot even face that the GOP is currently under the sway of someone far worse than the normal criminality and corruption of politics, then you're not going to be able to make a good plan against it. I mean, you might stumble into one, but that's chance and not a good analysis of the situation.

Without accountability, the fear of answering to the 'reasonable conservative', the loons will hold sway. They're already making officials quit with their threats of violence (along with real violence), which is in addition to their threat of accountability at the ballot box. If you're not going to even bring the latter, what do you think will keep happening?


What else am I supposed to do, as a conservative-minded voter? The only reason I vote GOP is because the DNC is explicitly not conservative-minded.
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Vote in the primaries. Be vocal about what you want and demand to not only elected officials but other conservatives. Organize with other like minded conservatives. Follow through on threats to withhold your money, time, and support from those in the GOP being proudly wrong. Volunteer with a candidate you think will improve things. Run for office yourself.
 
tyr_13;14209413 Vote in the primaries. Be vocal about what you want and demand to not only elected officials but other conservatives. Organize with other like minded conservatives. Follow through on threats to withhold your money said:
Run for office yourself.[/I]
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Then the democrats will fund ads for his MAGA opponent in the primaries. After the MAGA candidate wins, the dems will will be horrified at the how dangerous the GOP is. So, lets all get on our high horse and vote for the great and holy party that is all things good. Lets all vote for the one presidential candidate that isn't a demented old liar.
 
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Musical interlude

I fights 'til I'm finished
When I cooks up me spinached.
'Tis clearly observative
I've a principle conservative!
I yam what I yam,
'Tis me nurture, by damn!
'N the rest o' youse mugs
Kin get canned!

Toot toot.
 
ahhell said:
Then the democrats will fund ads for his MAGA opponent in the primaries. After the MAGA candidate wins, the dems will will be horrified at the how dangerous the GOP is. So, lets all get on our high horse and vote for the great and holy party that is all things good. Lets all vote for the one presidential candidate that isn't a demented old liar.
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This is the same failure of reasoning/manipulation technique/coping mechanism that the MAGA use to stay in power.

All things are not equal right now. The absence of perfect does not put everyone on the same 'level'. Acknowledging the reality that things ('holyness/goodness' in your argument) are extremely asymmetric is in no way an argument that one side is perfect. One side doesn't have to be perfect to point out the ways it is way better than another side, or product, or idea, or Hel anything.

And further the highlighted shows how obscene the personalization of conservatives and a lot of 'centrists' has become. Pointing out the outsized flaws and harms of the GOP is not evidence the person pointing it out believes they are 'better' than other people or are doing so to make themselves seem 'better'. More importantly, even if they were that doesn't make them wrong. It's an insecurity that speaks volumes about why so many resist bettering everything; it's personal ego. Actually trying to correct anything is frame as saying the US is 'evil' and people 'hate the US' and 'you think you're better than me,' and 'if you really cared you'd blah blah blah'. Fixing things means things were not 'great' before, and then maybe you were not great before, and then maybe someone might blame me. It's a child's motivation.

'Look what you made me do,' will fix nothing. It certainly won't help those conservatives who think they don't have a good party to get behind right now. The Dems can't fix this for you or theprestige, and it isn't their fault that is what has happened.

EDIT: You've been told that you don't have power, that being engage in politics is inherently dirty and you'll never fix things because 'they' will stop you, and everyone is equally bad anyway. It's a tactic to get people to disengage. Don't fall for it. You do have power even if it takes a lot of effort to use it and there is never a guarantee that you'll be successful.
 
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What is fascinating is the confession : " I vote for the Conservative Candidate".

Not "the candidate with the right policies and qualifications". it's enough that it's not a Democrat.
 
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More "Neither side is 100% flawless, so somehow that means it makes more sense to vote for the adjectively horrible side" insane troll logic.

But conservatives have always had that "Oh I see Al Gore doesn't live in a solar powered cardboard box, ergo I get to destroy the environment" histrionics about them.
 
I know there is nothing I can say that will make sense to progressive but....

Its clear progressives hate conservatives, I don't know why progressives would think a conservative would ever vote for the candidate that progressive prefer when it clear progressives hate them.

You can't for second imagine that some Voters voted for Trump despite is ********** for some reason other than his **********, like maybe he at the very least doesn't obviously hate them.
 
All the people I've heard start off with "I'm not a Democrat or Republican but..."

Four years later they're defending Trump or Republicans every chance they get....with the same reasoning not applied to defend Democrats. How? I believe they simply latched onto the populist frenzy that Trump brought to politics. They don't know what happened before that and don't care to educate themselves. They're not conservatives in my eyes, just suckers.
 
ahhell said:
I know there is nothing I can say that will make sense to progressive but....

Its clear progressives hate conservatives, I don't know why progressives would think a conservative would ever vote for the candidate that progressive prefer when it clear progressives hate them.

You can't for second imagine that some Voters voted for Trump despite is ********** for some reason other than his **********, like maybe he at the very least doesn't obviously hate them.
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'Look what you made me do' will fix nothing. It isn't the fault of progressives. Flat out it just isn't. That was your call.

Why do you want to let conservatives off for not having the courage of their convictions? Because progressives 'hate' that conviction? If you can't stand up to the contempt of the people whose healthcare you tried to remove then what do you have those convictions for? For how others will think of you? 'The progressive will hate me anyway so might as well be a villain?'

Your rationalization is just unbearably feeble. 'They're mean to me, they're saying these things because they're haters.' Come off it and have some personal accountability then move on to holding those MAGA you claim to oppose some accountability.

MAGA conservatives have been literally murdering people based on their ideas and you can't stand that some progressives are aggrieved? No, you deserve nothing from progressives, nor moderates, until you deal with those doing so much worse on the conservative side. That isn't to say I even agree with your 'they'll hate us anyway' assertion, but even if it were true, hot damn, get over it.
 
tyr_13 said:
Why do you want to let conservatives off for not having the courage of their convictions? Because progressives 'hate' that conviction? If you can't stand up to the contempt of the people whose healthcare you tried to remove then what do you have those convictions for? For how others will think of you? 'The progressive will hate me anyway so might as well be a villain?'
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YES! That's exactly what they are saying.

"Your side will never be perfect, ergo I get to never even try to be good." That's the message. That's exactly what they are saying.

It's been the message for years now.

"You're trying to be good and not achieving 100% across the board perfection of my strawman version of what I think your value are, ergo I'm better then you because I don't even try to be decent therefore I haven't committed the sin of disappointment."

This is why everything they say is about taking the other side down a peg. To punish them for the only sin the recognize, "Not being as good as you think you are."

Be horrible. Be terrible. Be stupid. Be wrong. Be evil. But whatever you do, don't you dare for a second be pretentious. Don't be uppity. Don't "not be as smart as you think you are." Don't put on airs. Don't make a goal, strive for it, and fail to reach it.
 
ahhell said:
You can't for second imagine that some Voters voted for Trump despite is ********** for some reason other than his **********, like maybe he at the very least doesn't obviously hate them.
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Can't imagine for a second? I know it. The vast majority of those who voted for Trump did so simply because he was the Republican candidate - nothing more and nothing less. That's why they are Deplorables. They held their noses and voted for him despite his ********** and **********. That's how morally bankrupt republicans are.
 
Fellers, when you argue with a nihilist, you argue with a septic tank: everything you put into it turns into the same sludge.
 
I just heard a brief interview of Republicans on NPR after the Iowa governor endorsed DeSantis. One of them said, regarding Trump, "I don't care what he said, I don't care what he did... [I'm still voting Trump]"

Pretty sure I'm remembering the italicized part verbatim. And I think it was meant 100% literally. What's more, it's not -- by a long shot -- the first time I've heard that.

I feel like conservatives have not only allowed, but encouraged, the MAGA takeover because it won elections for R's. Now it seems they're trying to find anyone to blame but themselves. Which is why I think they're a long way from fixing the problem.
 
Ryan O'Dine said:
I just heard a brief interview of Republicans on NPR after the Iowa governor endorsed DeSantis. One of them said, regarding Trump, "I don't care what he said, I don't care what he did... [I'm still voting Trump]"
Pretty sure I'm remembering the italicized part verbatim. And I think it was meant 100% literally. What's more, it's not -- by a long shot -- the first time I've heard that.

I feel like conservatives have not only allowed, but encouraged, the MAGA takeover because it won elections for R's. Now it seems they're trying to find anyone to blame but themselves. Which is why I think they're a long way from fixing the problem.
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One thing I have to give Trump credit for is that he knows his base. He knows the more fascist, the more hateful, the more aggrieved, the more racist, the more bigoted he is, the more they like it.
 
Ryan O'Dine said:
I just heard a brief interview of Republicans on NPR after the Iowa governor endorsed DeSantis. One of them said, regarding Trump, "I don't care what he said, I don't care what he did... [I'm still voting Trump]"

Pretty sure I'm remembering the italicized part verbatim. And I think it was meant 100% literally. What's more, it's not -- by a long shot -- the first time I've heard that.

I feel like conservatives have not only allowed, but encouraged, the MAGA takeover because it won elections for R's. Now it seems they're trying to find anyone to blame but themselves. Which is why I think they're a long way from fixing the problem.
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Trump's stopped clock moment: "I could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose a single supporter."
 
ahhell said:
I know there is nothing I can say that will make sense to progressive but....

Its clear progressives hate conservatives, I don't know why progressives would think a conservative would ever vote for the candidate that progressive prefer when it clear progressives hate them.

You can't for second imagine that some Voters voted for Trump despite is ********** for some reason other than his **********, like maybe he at the very least doesn't obviously hate them.
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If there is hate from the Left Toward the Right, it's not because of conservatism. The Right of today has gone Fascist Right. They are no longer conservative. They're regressive. And once their presumptive, leading candidate for the highest office on the land is using Hitlerian language and threatening retribution as his guiding light, and the rest of his Party utters not the slightest murmer of dissent, the only conclusion is that the Right has indeed jettisoned conservatism and are embracing barbarism.

That's worthy of hate.
 
I guess there's one thing I hate about Conservatives: their victim mentality. Because it creates the fertile ground for fascism.

At least conservativea aren't dehumanized all the time the way progressives are.
 
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Hatred is like ammunition: You save it for a worthwhile target. That's why I've never hated even the corn-fed fascists of my native Wyoming. Mean small-mindedness like that merits contemptuous pity, nothing more.
 
ahhell said:
snip...
These sorts of threads always remind of the research by Haidt demonstrating how Progressives understand conservatives much less than conservatives understand progressive. As far as I can tell, progressives don't have any desire to understand anyone that disagrees with them.
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I appreciate this post, including the snipped part. And I feel it's important for both sides to try to understand each other, I know I have work to do there.

However...

I'd just point out that you don't have to understand why the neighbors down the street are running a puppy mill to know that puppy mills are wrong. Maybe you'll change your mind about how evil the neighbors are once you get to know them, but that won't make puppy mills any less inhumane.

That's where we are with MAGA republicans and their enablers. They're objectively wrong about existential matters, like the nature of democracy, human rights, objective truth, and just plain playing fair. Maybe the left is going overboard hating the people because of their beliefs, but that doesn't make their beliefs any the less wrong.
 
Trebuchet said:
From Wikipedia:


What are these clowns "preserving"? Mostly they're just tearing down instutions like the US Constitution, and our whole system and institutions of government. Democracy? Pah! They hate it.
All they are for is ancient evils like racism and authoritarianism.
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The traditions and customs wikipedia refers to are from the 9th century, therefore rigid class stratification, institutionalised misogyny, slavery, serfdom, massive wealth imbalance and unreasoning belief in superstitious religion.

Therefore, today's conservatives are the most "conserving".
 
Lurch said:
If there is hate from the Left Toward the Right, it's not because of conservatism. The Right of today has gone Fascist Right. They are no longer conservative. They're regressive. And once their presumptive, leading candidate for the highest office on the land is using Hitlerian language and threatening retribution as his guiding light, and the rest of his Party utters not the slightest murmer of dissent, the only conclusion is that the Right has indeed jettisoned conservatism and are embracing barbarism.

That's worthy of hate.
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I agree with all you say except this: "That's worthy of hate." I'd say it's worthy of disdain rather than hate.
 
Ryan O'Dine said:
I appreciate this post, including the snipped part. And I feel it's important for both sides to try to understand each other, I know I have work to do there.

However...

I'd just point out that you don't have to understand why the neighbors down the street are running a puppy mill to know that puppy mills are wrong. Maybe you'll change your mind about how evil the neighbors are once you get to know them, but that won't make puppy mills any less inhumane.

That's where we are with MAGA republicans and their enablers. They're objectively wrong about existential matters, like the nature of democracy, human rights, objective truth, and just plain playing fair. Maybe the left is going overboard hating the people because of their beliefs, but that doesn't make their beliefs any the less wrong.
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Well said!
 
I think the right does have a victim mentality, but I've seen plenty of posts here to see that a victim mentality is not restricted to the right.
 
Stacyhs said:
I think the right does have a victim mentality, but I've seen plenty of posts here to see that a victim mentality is not restricted to the right.
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One look at the Fox crowd and you see it's full of "why is everyone against White Christian Americans, i.e. us?"
The whole "we have been cancelled" outrage on national TV is victim mentality, and so is EVERYTHING about Trump and MAGA - every day he is whining about how badly he is being treated.

No, it's blatantly obvious that it's people on the Right who are constantly holding up the Victim Card.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
I think the right does have a victim mentality, but I've seen plenty of posts here to see that a victim mentality is not restricted to the right.
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One look at the Fox crowd and you see it's full of "why is everyone against White Christian Americans, i.e. us?"
The whole "we have been cancelled" outrage on national TV is victim mentality, and so is EVERYTHING about Trump and MAGA - every day he is whining about how badly he is being treated.

No, it's blatantly obvious that it's people on the Right who are constantly holding up the Victim Card.
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If you read my post again. I said that "the right does have a victim mentality," but that does not mean that ONLY they exhibit that trait. Like I said, I've seen some here exhibit the same victim mentality but they are the least likely to recognize it in themselves. It's common with those who see things only in black and white. I'd name names but it would violate ISF rules.
 
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you are doing a whataboutism - I thought people had learned better than to do that.

why don't put a number to it: what's the Ratio of right-wingers with access to large audiences acting as if they are always the victim to left-winger with similar reach?

if it's not in within one order of magnitude, all you are doing is excusing the basic narrative that underlies right-wing mentality.
 
and let's have a look at this claim of "seeing things only in black and white" - that nonsense.

What is going on is that we have one problem that is much bigger and more urgent than another, so the correct thing is to tackle that first; and when it has been addressed, by all means, deal with the next biggest one.
But saying that the big one is the one we need to deal with first is not saying that the other doesn't exist.
Or saying that one side has to completely clean up their act before they can be involved in cleaning up the utter mess the other side is doing - which is standard Conservative talk about most progressive issues - is just delaying tactics, not a moral standpoint.

Right now, the problem is not progressives, and I wish people didn't feel the need to constantly virtue signal that it might be.
 
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It's one of the problems of the US version of voting.
If the voting were democratic there would be choices for each side. But since you're locked into the two-party state you have no real choice in who governs, and neither party has to learn how to compromise.
 
When I say that the Right's decline into regressivism and its charted course toward Christo-Fascism is worthy of hate, I mean it in this sense. To merely express disdain for a potential danger is to permit it to grow, for disdain derives from a dismissive contempt. That is passive. It requires a harsher emotional response, sufficient to beat down the danger it needs beating down. And that can come only from a more elemental, instinctive reaction to a threat.

Here, the beating down can be done in the voting booth as long as elections are still a thing, and that enough of the somnolent, somatic, slothful slugs can separate themselves from the couch and put a mark beside the "D".
 
ahhell said:
I know there is nothing I can say that will make sense to progressive but....

Its clear progressives hate conservatives, I don't know why progressives would think a conservative would ever vote for the candidate that progressive prefer when it clear progressives hate them.

You can't for second imagine that some Voters voted for Trump despite is ********** for some reason other than his **********, like maybe he at the very least doesn't obviously hate them.
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Thank you for demonstrating what I've been saying for a few years now. Modern conservatism doesn't have principles, or ideals, or beliefs, or any sort of morals.

Modern conservatism is just a bunch of reactions.
 
Donal said:
Thank you for demonstrating what I've been saying for a few years now. Modern conservatism doesn't have principles, or ideals, or beliefs, or any sort of morals.

Modern conservatism is just a bunch of reactions.
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I'll say one last thing, as the op says, modern Republicans(most of them anyway) aren't conservative. I fully agree with that, they are quite radical.

There are some principled conservatives left but they are no longer republicans, its the folks at the Dispatch and George Will.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
you are projecting.
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... he said, as he projected.

The entire left is built on victimhood. Trans people are victims of transphobia. Gay people are victims of homophobia. Racial minorities are victims of racism. Women are victims of misogyny. Poor people are victims of classism. Workers are the victims of capitalism. Even the earth is the victim of industrialization. Victimhood is so foundational that they actually have to rank how much of a victim you are with the progressive stack.

Yeah, some people on the right are trying to get in on that racket. But the left invented it, and the left perfected it. You can't do identity politics without it.
 
Damn the left for plainly stating observable facts. Why can't they think of the real victims? Well to do white folks who have to be uncomfortable for 5 minutes.
 
Ziggurat said:
... he said, as he projected.

The entire left is built on victimhood. Trans people are victims of transphobia. Gay people are victims of homophobia. Racial minorities are victims of racism. Women are victims of misogyny. Poor people are victims of classism. Workers are the victims of capitalism. Even the earth is the victim of industrialization. Victimhood is so foundational that they actually have to rank how much of a victim you are with the progressive stack.

Yeah, some people on the right are trying to get in on that racket. But the left invented it, and the left perfected it. You can't do identity politics without it.
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There is a difference: people on the Left generally have grievances about REAL things like poor pay or blatant racism.

On the Right, we have the Glenn Beck generation, who cry fake tears about important things like "the War on Christmas" or "Wokism" - or any Right for any Group that isn't Christian White.
Or you you deny that the ENTIRE Trump campaign is based on nothing but being the victim of the (((Deep State / NWO / Democrats / Immigrants))) ?
 
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