Today's Republicans are not "conservatives".

[Beelzebuddy]

It's not even an accurate image of the 1950s, it's a nostalgia-infused distorted mythological version of the 1950s. Mostly promulgated by people who were children at that time and thus weren't even aware of the negative aspects. I think they confuse their TV version of that era with reality.

Like how the eighties is all synthwave and neon sunsets instead of corporate beige and cocaine.

[ETA] Oh right, the topic. Republicans have never been conservatives. That's just been the image, the flag pin on the talking head apologetics. Dig into any "conservative" goal and you'll either hit simple bigotry (probably racism), or funneling money to the rich.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Oh, add the idiot Tuberville's screwing with military promotions to the list of things that would have been unthinkable for past Republicans. Can you imagine what would have happened if one of them had tried such a stunt back in the 80s? They'd have been found unconscious in the Rotunda with Bob Dole's heel mark on their forehead.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I've heard it posited that Tuberville is purposely holding up promotions so that Trump loyalists can be placed there in 2025.

 

[autumn1971]

Let’s give them a bone and reset the highest income tax bracket to ‘50s rates

Because traditional values

 

[Venom]

I can't remember the last Republican I encountered who wasn't a troll. And I don't mean that as an insult but in a very literal "They only care about getting an emotional reaction out of other people by acting in a way they know will upset them" sense of the term.

LMAO this is literally so true for me.

They just try to bait and bait a public flame war for whatever reason. The media they get drunk on has normalized bringing up politics at work, Thanksgiving, what next, job interviews?

 

[Stacyhs]

Let’s give them a bone and reset the highest income tax bracket to ‘50s rates
Because traditional values

It would solve a lot of government funding problems.

But it would severely hurt the lifestyle of the rich and famous.

 

[psionl0]

From Wikipedia:

Conservatism is a cultural, social, and political philosophy that seeks to promote and to preserve traditional institutions, customs, and values.

What are these clowns "preserving"? Mostly they're just tearing down instutions like the US Constitution, and our whole system and institutions of government. Democracy? Pah! They hate it.
All they are for is ancient evils like racism and authoritarianism.

That sounds pretty much like Republicans to me.

It's just that like all politicians, they want POWER! That means BIG government and tearing down the constitution (they hate how the constitution limits their power). I don't know if it has ever been different regardless of what they have ever preached.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Thing is, terms like "traditional institutions, customs, and values" are vague and unactionable, which is why right -wingers love to use them in rhetorics because they will never have to deliver anything, unlike things like a Living Wage or Equal Rights.
They are also Code for racism.

 

[Stacyhs]

Thing is, terms like "traditional institutions, customs, and values" are vague and unactionable, which is why right -wingers love to use them in rhetorics because they will never have to deliver anything, unlike things like a Living Wage or Equal Rights.
They are also Code for racism.

If it was good enough George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Benj. Franklin, and James Monroe, then it's good enough for us!

 

[dirtywick]

It would solve a lot of government funding problems.

But it would severely hurt the lifestyle of the rich and famous.

i read somewhere once that if they went back to the pre-bush era military spending and undid the trump and bush tax cuts the spending deficit would be gone.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

It's not even an accurate image of the 1950s, it's a nostalgia-infused distorted mythological version of the 1950s. Mostly promulgated by people who were children at that time and thus weren't even aware of the negative aspects. I think they confuse their TV version of that era with reality.

I kind of hope that's true, but I think it's more likely they're fully aware of those aspects (not limited to racism, homophobia, misogyny, almost unfettered domestic violence, corporate unconcern for the environment and the safety of products, etc. etc.) and that those things are actually integral to their ideal world.

I never thought this before the tea party got a foothold and Trumpism a stranglehold, but now it's hard for me to think otherwise.

 

[Venom]

The Heritage Foundation comes right out and says American institutions were devised by liberals and need to be dismantled and remade.

We may mock Republicans who just pay lip service to liberal democracy, but I still think this at least legitimizes the concept in most people's minds. Remember when Ted Cruz slammed anti-LGBT persecution in Uganda? I'd rather have Cruz in the mainstream than some of the monsters he was arguing with there.

 

[Darat]

It's not even an accurate image of the 1950s, it's a nostalgia-infused distorted mythological version of the 1950s. Mostly promulgated by people who were children at that time and thus weren't even aware of the negative aspects. I think they confuse their TV version of that era with reality.

I kind of hope that's true, but I think it's more likely they're fully aware of those aspects (not limited to racism, homophobia, misogyny, almost unfettered domestic violence, corporate unconcern for the environment and the safety of products, etc. etc.) and that those things are actually integral to their ideal world.

I never thought this before the tea party got a foothold and Trumpism a stranglehold, but now it's hard for me to think otherwise.

I think you are both right to an extent, it is a fantasy built on childhood nostalgia but with adult eyes now seeing those "negatives" as "positives".

People knew their place back then!

 

[Darat]

The Heritage Foundation comes right out and says American institutions were devised by liberals and need to be dismantled and remade.

...snip...

I don't think there is any doubt that in regard to the founding of the USA it was the liberals that won in the marketplace of ideas.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

I can't remember the last Republican I encountered who wasn't a troll. And I don't mean that as an insult but in a very literal "They only care about getting an emotional reaction out of other people by acting in a way they know will upset them" sense of the term.

You won't find many Republicans that are willing to waste their time in a den of Liberals with ill-conceived notions of how the economy works. Most of them will just tell you to visit your local grocery store and gas pump to determine if what you believe actually works.

 

[Stacyhs]

You won't find many Republicans that are willing to waste their time in a den of Liberals vermin with ill-conceived notions of how the economy works. Most of them will just tell you to visit your local grocery store and gas pump to determine if what you believe actually works.

Then they have a very simplistic understanding of the situation.

Are they working? Unemployment is at 3.9%.

Is the economy growing? "The pace of U.S. economic growth picked up in the third quarter, growing 4.9%. It's the fastest rate of growth, as measured by Gross Domestic Product (GDP), since 2022's fourth quarter. Despite higher interest rates and persistent inflation, the economy continues to grow in 2023."

How is US inflation compared to the rest of the world?

"U.S. inflation has cooled sooner and more quickly than in other advanced economies."
"Although inflation in the United States rose earlier than in other G7 economies—reflecting the brisk recovery from the pandemic—it also fell sooner and quicker. Indeed, once we exclude owners’ equivalent rent to make U.S. core inflation comparable to other countries, the U.S. harmonized core inflation is now about 2 percent—well below many other large advanced economies."


But you listen to those economic experts at Walmart instead.

FTFY.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Then they have a very simplistic understanding of the situation.

Are they working? Unemployment is at 3.9%.

Is the economy growing? "The pace of U.S. economic growth picked up in the third quarter, growing 4.9%. It's the fastest rate of growth, as measured by Gross Domestic Product (GDP), since 2022's fourth quarter. Despite higher interest rates and persistent inflation, the economy continues to grow in 2023."

How is US inflation compared to the rest of the world?

"U.S. inflation has cooled sooner and more quickly than in other advanced economies."
"Although inflation in the United States rose earlier than in other G7 economies—reflecting the brisk recovery from the pandemic—it also fell sooner and quicker. Indeed, once we exclude owners’ equivalent rent to make U.S. core inflation comparable to other countries, the U.S. harmonized core inflation is now about 2 percent—well below many other large advanced economies."


But you listen to those economic experts at Walmart instead.

FTFY.

The US dollar is worth less today than it was during Trump, yes it's worth less under Biden, even at Walmart.

Employment is up because most are working 2 jobs to be able to afford to live. Isn't that easy? There's no need to try to say everything's rosey, everyone in the US reading this knows the truth.

The US was energy independent during Trump's term and now thanks to Bidenomics, we rely more on imported oil now. Biden's war on oil worked and everyone can see the results, it's posted on every fuel pump in the US.

You can't sweep hard times under the rug by pointing to other Countries compared to the US. "We're doing better than they are!" Yea, the World economy is tied to the US economy, if it's hard times here it's harder times everywhere else. Is that a win? Nope.

Many Democrats can't stand Biden now. Prices are high, paychecks are low and the World is on fire with the US funding a great deal of it. There's no way Biden pulls out "another" 81 million votes in 2024. Everyone knows they're worse off under Biden than they ever were under Trump. Mean tweets were better than the World burning.

 

[sackett]

Draw it mild, Chris old pal. Instead of making claims, quantify these bad times we're all living through. You know, with numbers.

Go ahead. Let's see how well you do at that facts & figures stuff.

BTW, reg at the pumps near me is about $3.48 this evening.

ETA: $3.39.

 

[Stacyhs]

Draw it mild, Chris old pal. Instead of making claims, quantify these bad times we're all living through. You know, with numbers.

Go ahead. Let's see how well you do at that facts & figures stuff.

BTW, reg at the pumps near me is about $3.48 this evening.

ETA: $3.39.

Brandolini’s law states: The amount of energy needed to refute ******** is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.

I need to keep reminding myself that Trump supporters are impervious to facts.

 

[Delvo]

Getting hung up on those little year-to-year economic fluctuations is nothing but a distraction, in both directions, for at least two distinct reasons.

1. No President ever controls them; not from either party, and not either for better or for worse.

2. They're also just ripples on the top of the body of water anyway, not real changes in the body's depth, and what really affects people in the big picture is the water's depth, not the ripples. And the trend over multiple separate Presidencies has been that the water is draining out from under us, including when a little ripple comes along and momentarily bobs some of us up a bit (& then back down again). People's whole lives just aren't working like life is supposed to work, it has always been getting worse over their whole lives, and they aren't experiencing that suddenly turning around each time some economic "good news" is announced for the latest quarter/year. And the longer that goes on, the less effective any "let's distract them with the latest ripple" strategy becomes.

(Also, most measures of how well "the economy" is doing are really just measures of how fast the rich are getting richer anyway, not measures of anything near the quality of life of most people...)

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Draw it mild, Chris old pal. Instead of making claims, quantify these bad times we're all living through. You know, with numbers.

Go ahead. Let's see how well you do at that facts & figures stuff.

BTW, reg at the pumps near me is about $3.48 this evening.

ETA: $3.39.

As you wish. I have a few minutes to spare this morning.

Gas prices by year from: https://www.creditdonkey.com/gas-price-history.html

2017 $2.41
2018 $2.74
2019 $2.64
2020 $2.17
2021 $3.05 2022 $3.29 2023 $3.22 (Biden in Yellow)


On to inflation rates by year from: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/inflation-rate-cpi

U.S. inflation rate for 2022 was 8.00%, a 3.3% increase from 2021. U.S. inflation rate for 2021 was 4.70%, a 3.46% increase from 2020.U.S. inflation rate for 2020 was 1.23%, a 0.58% decline from 2019.
U.S. inflation rate for 2019 was 1.81%, a 0.63% decline from 2018.
U.S. inflation rate for 2018 was 2.44%, a 0.31% increase from 2017.
U.S. inflation rate for 2017 was 2.13%, a 0.87% increase from 2016.
(Biden in yellow)

For things like the increases in your monthly Electricity bill, check on your bill for a heading like "Environmental Surcharge" or "Environmental Compliance Plan" Look at the charges, mine typically averages about $40 extra per month, so for me it's around $40 per month added to the bill. There's also other things like the "Fuel Adjustment Charge" which is usually the same rate as the "Environmental Charge", about $40. If you need the math that's $80 added to my monthly bill for these two Biden "New Green deal" charges.

Here's a brief Q and A from my Utility Company trying to explain how it works now under Biden:
from: https://www.skrecc.com/environmental-surcharge

Q: What is the environmental surcharge?
A: The surcharge reflects the cost of equipment
and other expenses our power supplier incurs
to comply with EPA regulations on power plant
emissions.

Q:What equipment is needed to comply with
EPA rules?
A:Our power supplier has had to install expensive
equipment like scrubbers to meet government
regulations. The surcharge covers operation and
maintenance of this equipment, and other
environmental costs.

Q:Why does it change from month to month?
A:It changes as environmental costs fluctuate. It
also changes because there is a “true up” to account for monthly over- or under-collections
of these costs.

Q:How is the surcharge amount calculated?
A:It is based on a formula approved by state
regulators. Our power supplier bills our co-op
for these costs and then those are passed to
members. State regulators regularly check to
ensure that only proper expenses are included.

Qoes the co-op get revenue from the surcharge?
A:No. The charge is a pass-through from our
wholesale energy supplier, East Kentucky Power
Cooperative (EKPC). Every penny goes directly
to EKPC.

Q:Is the Cooperative Solar farm causing the
surcharge to increase?
A:No. Cooperative Solar has no impact on the
environmental surcharge.

Q:Can the co-op help me at all? A:Our co-op understands that the economic downturn makes it difficult to pay for utilities, food and medicine. We can help members with programs like Prepay, levelized billing, bill payment plans.
This is all courtesy of Biden. Part of which was to negate Trump's Executive Order which effectively muzzled the EPA from adding new regulations until they removed some old regulations. Now they're free to regulate energy production out of business, increase consumer prices of energy across the board and that's exactly what they've been doing. Don't take my word for it of course, you can see it for yourself just by looking at your utility bill.

Well that's all I have time for at the moment. I realize there are many Biden apologists desperately trying to bail the sinking ship in hope for a 2024 victory. They better get those ballot boxes stuffed (again?) if they expect to pull it off.

 

[Donal]

You won't find many Republicans that are willing to waste their time in a den of Liberals with ill-conceived notions of how the economy works.

Yes, they generally just spout their ill-conceived notions of how the economy works with their fellow Republicans.

Most of them will just tell you to visit your local grocery store and gas pump to determine if what you believe actually works.

And then I point to to the profits these companies are pulling in and ask "what should the Biden admin do? Implement price caps?" to which they mumble some nonsense about pipelines that they clearly don't understand.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

"A Libertarian walks into a Bear"

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50358538-a-libertarian-walks-into-a-bear

 

[Donal]

The US dollar is worth less today than it was during Trump, yes it's worth less under Biden, even at Walmart.

Yes, currency loses value over time. The dollar lost value under Trump compared to Obama.

Employment is up because most are working 2 jobs to be able to afford to live. Isn't that easy? There's no need to try to say everything's rosey, everyone in the US reading this knows the truth.

Thanks to the neoliberal policies of which you're trying to mount a futile defense. The Orange weakling tried to tout unemployment rates during his reign of error, after years of screaming about how meaningless the stat is.

The US was energy independent during Trump's term

Thanks to policies that were implemented before Trump, the US became a net exporter of energy. There's a difference.

and now thanks to Bidenomics, we rely more on imported oil now. Biden's war on oil worked and everyone can see the results, it's posted on every fuel pump in the US.

Explain the connection between Biden admin policies and the price at the fuel pump. Particularly with "energy independence". Even if every drop of oil consumed in the US was extracted and refined domestically, the oil companies themselves are still setting the prices to recoup the projected profits they "lost" due to COVID.

You can't sweep hard times under the rug by pointing to other Countries compared to the US. "We're doing better than they are!" Yea, the World economy is tied to the US economy, if it's hard times here it's harder times everywhere else. Is that a win? Nope.

Yes, Biden and leaders worldwide can do a lot more to clean up the mess left by neoliberalism. The problem is, they are petrified of hurting "the economy".

Many Democrats can't stand Biden now.

But not for the reasons you think.

Prices are high, paychecks are low and the World is on fire with the US funding a great deal of it.

Ya, but its not because he's gone too far left. Its because him and his contemporaries are fighting tooth and nail to maintain the same systems and policies every president and world leader since Carter, including the Orange Weakling, implemented and serve.

There's no way Biden pulls out "another" 81 million votes in 2024.

Probably not, but he won't likely need that many. And why did you put another is scare quotes?

Everyone knows they're worse off under Biden than they ever were under Trump.

I literally lost thousands of dollars in assets under Trump. His billionaire welfare raised my taxes and dramatically raised my COL. When you see "Everyone", tell him he's an idiot.

lt Mean tweets were better than the World burning.

The mean tweets were the fiddle while the world burned. It wasn't about mean tweets, but rather reactionary policies and actions based on hurt widdle feewings. It was about rubber stamping papers put in front of him by an unelected de facto federal government. It was about not addressing a worldwide pandemic like a responsible leader because he didn't want to hurt the attendance at his klan rallies.

 

[Donal]

"A Libertarian walks into a Bear"

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50358538-a-libertarian-walks-into-a-bear

I'm actually about 2/3 through this now

 

[The Great Zaganza]

low dollar means cheaper exports - which is good for the US.

 

[Ziggurat]

I can't remember the last Republican I encountered who wasn't a troll.

When's the last time you sought out conservatives in a conservative forum? Most people want to hang out where they're welcome, and to a large extent, conservatives aren't welcome here. Just read this thread to see that in action. Trolls, on the other hand, seek that out. So of course conservative trolls are going to be over-represented here. Why would you expect anything else?

 

[JoeMorgue]

When's the last time you sought out conservatives in a conservative forum?

About the same time I sought out creationism, anti-vaccine, Flat Earth, and incel forums.

I don't have a moral or intellectual obligation to seek out people who are wrong. I'm not the Idiot Whisperer.

My focus is stopping the damage wrong people are doing. I'm not longer feeding into their concern trolling "But have you reached out to US and tried make peace with us being hateful and wrong?" narrative.

 

[Donal]

When's the last time you sought out conservatives in a conservative forum? Most people want to hang out where they're welcome, and to a large extent, conservatives aren't welcome here. Just read this thread to see that in action. Trolls, on the other hand, seek that out. So of course conservative trolls are going to be over-represented here. Why would you expect anything else?

Its too bad there are no large organizations, like a political party that represents conservatives, or platforms for conservatives to express themselves. I'm sure then we'd see these intellectually sound, logically consistent, non-trolling conservatives.

Or better yet, I wish that the conservatives among my family and neighbors felt comfortable enough at gatherings to voice their conservative beliefs. Because that never happens and they don't immediately run straight to the worst stereotypes the second they feel "safe".

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't have a moral or intellectual obligation to seek out people who are wrong.

Sure, that's correct. You don't even have any obligation to seek out people who are right. You have no obligation to seek out anybody. I'm just pointing out that there's a sampling bias in your interactions which you should at least be aware of. I'm not suggesting this obligates you to do anything, unless you want to get a more representative sample. Which you are likewise not obligated to do.

But why do you assume conservatives are all wrong? Do you think liberals are all correct? Almost nobody is wrong about everything, and absolutely nobody is right about everything.

My focus is stopping the damage wrong people are doing.

I seriously doubt that. This forum isn't an effective place to accomplish that goal.

 

[Ziggurat]

Its too bad [snip]

This post is not actually responsive to my point in any way. My point had nothing to do with conservative platforms or expression in general. My point was entirely about Joe's interaction profile with conservatives.

 

[Donal]

But that's just it, conservatives have every opportunity to present themselves on their own terms to the public and...you see what we get. Are you trying to tell me conservatives aren't welcome on Sean Hannity or on the CSPAN live stream?

 

[Thermal]

Then they have a very simplistic understanding of the situation.

Are they working? Unemployment is at 3.9%.

Is the economy growing? "The pace of U.S. economic growth picked up in the third quarter, growing 4.9%. It's the fastest rate of growth, as measured by Gross Domestic Product (GDP), since 2022's fourth quarter. Despite higher interest rates and persistent inflation, the economy continues to grow in 2023."

How is US inflation compared to the rest of the world?

"U.S. inflation has cooled sooner and more quickly than in other advanced economies."
"Although inflation in the United States rose earlier than in other G7 economies—reflecting the brisk recovery from the pandemic—it also fell sooner and quicker. Indeed, once we exclude owners’ equivalent rent to make U.S. core inflation comparable to other countries, the U.S. harmonized core inflation is now about 2 percent—well below many other large advanced economies."


But you listen to those economic experts at Walmart instead.

FTFY.

Yes, working more and earning less. According to census data, Americans are indeed taking home less and doing more to earn that. Sounds...strange, when talking about how robust the economy is, isn't it? Robust for some, not for many.

https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2023/demo/p60-279.html

 

[Ziggurat]

But that's just it, conservatives have every opportunity to present themselves on their own terms to the public and...you see what we get. Are you trying to tell me conservatives aren't welcome on Sean Hannity or on the CSPAN live stream?

I'm trying to tell you that they aren't welcome here, and this is where Joe hangs out. Is that really so hard to grasp? Is it even controversial?

And note, I'm not claiming that this is a one-way problem either. Conservative trolls are over-represented in liberal spaces, and liberal trolls are over-represented in conservative spaces. That's just the nature of trolls.

 

[Thermal]

As you wish. I have a few minutes to spare this morning.

Gas prices by year from: https://www.creditdonkey.com/gas-price-history.html

2017 $2.41
2018 $2.74
2019 $2.64
2020 $2.17
2021 $3.05 2022 $3.29 2023 $3.22 (Biden in Yellow)


On to inflation rates by year from: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/inflation-rate-cpi

U.S. inflation rate for 2022 was 8.00%, a 3.3% increase from 2021. U.S. inflation rate for 2021 was 4.70%, a 3.46% increase from 2020.U.S. inflation rate for 2020 was 1.23%, a 0.58% decline from 2019.
U.S. inflation rate for 2019 was 1.81%, a 0.63% decline from 2018.
U.S. inflation rate for 2018 was 2.44%, a 0.31% increase from 2017.
U.S. inflation rate for 2017 was 2.13%, a 0.87% increase from 2016.
(Biden in yellow)

Couldn't you just have well said "Global Pandemic and 100% predictable inflationary aftermath no matter who the **** was president" in yellow?

 

[Donal]

I'm trying to tell you that they aren't welcome here, and this is where Joe hangs out. Is that really so hard to grasp? Is it even controversial?

And I'm trying to tell you the problem isn't here or what you perceive as "liberal spaces". I'd tell you to go look at r/Conservative (capitol R) or the even worse r/conservative (lower case R), but you'd find a way to dismiss those exclusively conservative forums. I pointed out that even when conservatives get a way to express themselves with no liberal push back, they can't help but devolve into what Joe is referring to.

And note, I'm not claiming that this is a one-way problem either. Conservative trolls are over-represented in liberal spaces, and liberal trolls are over-represented in conservative spaces. That's just the nature of trolls.

Anecdotal, but I've notice conservative spaces are a lot quicker with those ban hammers. Like those subreddits I mentioned above.

 

[Ziggurat]

And I'm trying to tell you the problem isn't here

I never even said there WAS a problem. I said there was a sampling bias. It's up to Joe whether or not he thought that bias was a problem. Not all sampling biases are problems, as long as we recognize the sample isn't representative. Not all samples need to be. For example, I would strongly suggest that you not make your circle of friends a representative sample of the population at large.

I'd tell you to go look at r/Conservative (capitol R) or the even worse r/conservative (lower case R),

Reddit? Seriously?

If you want to find thoughtful, non-trolling conservatives, Reddit isn't going to be the place to do that. No social media platform is going to be. In fact, the internet in general isn't really the place to look, if that's what you want to find. The internet is not the totality of human experience, you know. But again, you aren't obliged to go searching. Just don't kid yourself that the sampling you've done is representative. It's not.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm trying to tell you that they aren't welcome here, and this is where Joe hangs out. Is that really so hard to grasp? Is it even controversial?

BECAUSE BEING WRONG SHOULDN'T BE WELCOMED ANYWHERE.

"I think Trump won the election and that Democrats bus brown people into voting districts to steal election and Hillary had a child sex dungeon in the basement of a pizza parlor and I'm just not welcomed here. Have you ever though about going somewhere where they believe that and talking to them?"

No. No. The thought of doing that has never crossed my mind and never will.

I so ******* sick of explaining this. I'm so sick of conservatives trying to paint "I'm going to be intentionally wrong everything and knowingly and proudly horrible to everyone" leading to them not being welcome in places as some sort of unfairness.

Being wrong putting you at a disadvantage in life isn't an unfairness.

It's not sane, decent, or hell at the very least "wrong and horrible within normal parameters" people's job to make room for conservatives at the table anymore.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

When's the last time you sought out conservatives in a conservative forum? Most people want to hang out where they're welcome, and to a large extent, conservatives aren't welcome here. Just read this thread to see that in action. Trolls, on the other hand, seek that out. So of course conservative trolls are going to be over-represented here. Why would you expect anything else?

do you have a recommendation for a conservative forum ?

 

[Ziggurat]

BECAUSE BEING WRONG SHOULDN'T BE WELCOMED ANYWHERE.

If you don't welcome people who are wrong, then you can't have any group larger than one, because everyone is wrong about something. "Wrong" is an insufficient descriptor. You mean something more than just wrong, but I don't think you've really thought about the precise boundaries of what that constitutes, and you sure as hell aren't communicating what they are clearly.

But I don't think I'm making headway on this front, because you seem to be stuck on something which you're expressing very badly, and my prior posts don't seem to be really addressing what you're feeling but not saying. So let's take a different approach. Let's consider the example of a specific conservative person that I think is not a troll. Let's consider the case of Thomas Sowell.

None of the wrong things you're describing here apply to Thomas Sowell. Yet he is undoubtedly a conservative, is he not? And I'm sure you don't agree with him on a lot of issues, because if you did agree with everything he said, then you'd be a conservative too. I think Sowell is not a troll. Do you think Sowell is a troll? Do you think his beliefs are somehow beyond the pale? Do you think there's no point in engaging with someone like Sowell? Do you think he's right about anything?