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[Continuation] Today's Mass Shooting (part 3)

thaiboxerken said:
Listen guys, just because there is no evidence that supports the "good guy with a gun" argument and there is a cubic butt-ton of evidence that disproves it doesn't mean what you're saying is logical....
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After about twenty back and forth posts it'd turn out that you're using a totally straw version of some imaginary "good guy with a gun" argument or some fringe quote you found in the dusty corners of the Internet.

No thanks.
 
Change in Concealed Carry Law Did Not Drive Violent Crime in Ohio Cities, Study Shows

CJR-2023-graphic-01.aspx
 
Thermal said:
(But it's still way higher in Ohio than it is in Jersey, where there's no carry. Coincidence? Or something more?)
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I don't know how I feel about "Constitutional Carry." Don't really have a problem with asking people to first get a permit, so long as issuance is not limited to the subjective discretion of some public bureaucrat. But, surely, law-abiding people ought to be able to defend themselves from criminals. And if the criminal is apprehensive that his would-be victim might be armed, so much the better.
 
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Trausti said:
I don't know how I feel about "Constitutional Carry." Don't really have a problem with asking people to first get a permit, so long as issuance is not limited to the subjective discretion of some public bureaucrat. But, surely, law-abiding people ought to be able to defend themselves from criminals. And if the criminal is apprehensive that his would-be victim might be armed, so much the better.
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Yes, and I'm very sympathetic to the idea of people being able to defend themselves by any means at their disposal, and in particular, for a smallish woman who could be easily overpowered. I can't come up with any reason to tell her she should not be allowed to use lethal force to keep herself or her children safe, especially when she lacks the muscle to put up a fight.

But looking at the data, no carry simply works. Jersey has had it for generations, and we are way down at the bottom of the gun violence rankings. It's a tough metric to dispute. What will be instructive to see is when we (inevitably) revert to carry, what happens to our gun violence rate?
 
Thermal said:
But looking at the data, no carry simply works. Jersey has had it for generations, and we are way down at the bottom of the gun violence rankings. It's a tough metric to dispute. What will be instructive to see is when we (inevitably) revert to carry, what happens to our gun violence rate?
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It's really not about allowing / or disallowing. A criminal isn't going to care either way. Montana, New Hamsphire, Wyoming, Vermont, Idaho, etc., have high gun ownship and less intentional gun homicide than New Jersey. And in New Jersey, from what I can find, there are areas of high intentional gun homicide - namely the big cities - while the rest of the State is like Idaho. I'd doubt that in those gun homicide hot spots the perps are legally carrying. So allowing citizens to carry, with a permit or not, would probably not change the stats.
 
Trausti said:
It's really not about allowing / or disallowing. A criminal isn't going to care either way. Montana, New Hamsphire, Wyoming, Vermont, Idaho, etc., have high gun ownship and less intentional gun homicide than New Jersey. And in New Jersey, from what I can find, there are areas of high intentional gun homicide - namely the big cities - while the rest of the State is like Idaho. I'd doubt that in those gun homicide hot spots the perps are legally carrying. So allowing citizens to carry, with a permit or not, would probably not change the stats.
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True enough, regarding cities being the hot spots for shootings, but Idaho? This is the State with the nation's highest population density, and the only one where every single county is designated "urban". Sparsely populated potato farms, we're not.

My concern is from knowing my fellow Jerseyans. Not crazy about the idea of my beloved yahoo citizenry suddenly being allowed to carry and discovering a new way to resolve conflicts that up till now only resulted in broken noses. I mean, give a brother a hammer and he's a-gonna be looking to do something with it.
 
Thermal said:
My concern is from knowing my fellow Jerseyans. Not crazy about the idea of my beloved yahoo citizenry suddenly being allowed to carry and discovering a new way to resolve conflicts that up till now only resulted in broken noses. I mean, give a brother a hammer and he's a-gonna be looking to do something with it.
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But they could do that anyway, regardless of the law. Gun restriction laws only harm law-abidding people because those are the people who'll follow them.
 
"A criminal isn't going to care" assumes that the gun is easy to get. This is because of the absolute overabundance of guns in American culture.
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
After about twenty back and forth posts it'd turn out that you're using a totally straw version of some imaginary "good guy with a gun" argument or some fringe quote you found in the dusty corners of the Internet.

No thanks.
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Errr, no, not a logic fail at all.

Our news reports here said that there were "at least" 800 armed active police on duty managing the crowds, and that Missouri gun laws allow open carry so it was likely some of the civilians were armed.

The NRA "good guy with a gun" meme has been around for ages, which I'm sure you know. It is specifically used to justify to the gun-nuts that an armed populace is a polite, safe populace. It has been echoed by the wingnuts like Bobert and EmptyG regularly, in support of 2A rights and open carry. (Colorado Barbie especially - she likes to pack heat herself.)

I was not the first to raise the failure of this meme either. But it was glaringly obvious to anyone with a lick of common sense that it had no basis in reality.

So no. No logic fail for the Missouri shooting. It proves this stupid meme is so badly wrong that it costs lives.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Errr, no, not a logic fail at all.

Our news reports here said that there were "at least" 800 armed active police on duty managing the crowds, and that Missouri gun laws allow open carry so it was likely some of the civilians were armed.

The NRA "good guy with a gun" meme has been around for ages, which I'm sure you know. It is specifically used to justify to the gun-nuts that an armed populace is a polite, safe populace. It has been echoed by the wingnuts like Bobert and EmptyG regularly, in support of 2A rights and open carry. (Colorado Barbie especially - she likes to pack heat herself.)

I was not the first to raise the failure of this meme either. But it was glaringly obvious to anyone with a lick of common sense that it had no basis in reality.

So no. No logic fail for the Missouri shooting. It proves this stupid meme is so badly wrong that it costs lives.
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This is your attempt at starting the 20 back and forth that I mentioned. What you're referring to as the "good guy with a gun meme" will end up being some silly straw man.
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
This is your attempt at starting the 20 back and forth that I mentioned.
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No. Also, don't care if it does.

What you're referring to as the "good guy with a gun meme" will end up being some silly straw man.
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OK, the facts of a very real situation are just...what, a strawman? But you don't want to address, just be a soothsayer. No wuckers for me, mate.
 
Trausti said:
I don't know how I feel about "Constitutional Carry." Don't really have a problem with asking people to first get a permit, so long as issuance is not limited to the subjective discretion of some public bureaucrat. But, surely, law-abiding people ought to be able to defend themselves from criminals. And if the criminal is apprehensive that his would-be victim might be armed, so much the better.
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And yet, in Canada where handguns are very difficult to get and concealed carry all but illegal, violent crime is much worse than in the United States:
  • Murder rate per million people: 3 times that of Canada
  • Rapes per million people: 16 times that of Canada
  • Murders committed by youth per million: 6 times that of Canada

It's almost as if everyone having a gun is more dangerous.

Source: www . nationmaster . com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime
 
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Blue Mountain said:
And yet, in Canada where handguns are very difficult to get and concealed carry all but illegal, violent crime is much worse than in the United States:
  • Murder rate per million people: 3 times that of Canada
  • Rapes per million people: 16 times that of Canada
  • Murders committed by youth per million: 6 times that of Canada

It's almost as if everyone having a gun is more dangerous.

Source: www . nationmaster . com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime
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It's different demographics. But they made an alternate thread on that.
 
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The final tally for February mass shootings are in at gva.org.

26 total. 10 less than January.
36 killed. 26 less than January.
104 wounded. 4 less than January.


A few of the notables, and by notables I mean shootings with double digit casualty counts and more killed than wounded.


Family annihilation. Asian male. 4 killed, 2 wounded(responding LEO). Pennsylvania.
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/2822404

Spree killing. "Gang members." 4 killed, 1 wounded. California.
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/2826477

Super Bowl parade shooting. 3 black males. 1 killed, 22 wounded. Kansas City.
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/2828642

Drive-by. Black male. 4 killed. Birmingham.
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/2831391

Police standoff. Black male. 3 killed, 1 injured. Minnesota.
https://gpttrol.dynu.net/2nd-amendm...ed-as-38-year-old-barred-from-gun-possession/

Home invasion shooting. 2 "teenagers", as young as 14 years old. 3 killed, 1 injured. Chicago.
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/2838389



Conspicuous that there are no white supremacist mass shooters on the list. Strange that.
 
Bogative said:
The final tally for February mass shootings are in at gva.org.

26 total. 10 less than January.
36 killed. 26 less than January.
104 wounded. 4 less than January.


A few of the notables, and by notables I mean shootings with double digit casualty counts and more killed than wounded.


Family annihilation. Asian male. 4 killed, 2 wounded(responding LEO). Pennsylvania.
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/2822404

Spree killing. "Gang members." 4 killed, 1 wounded. California.
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/2826477

Super Bowl parade shooting. 3 black males. 1 killed, 22 wounded. Kansas City.
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/2828642

Drive-by. Black male. 4 killed. Birmingham.
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/2831391

Police standoff. Black male. 3 killed, 1 injured. Minnesota.
https://gpttrol.dynu.net/2nd-amendm...ed-as-38-year-old-barred-from-gun-possession/

Home invasion shooting. 2 "teenagers", as young as 14 years old. 3 killed, 1 injured. Chicago.
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/2838389



Conspicuous that there are no white supremacist mass shooters on the list. Strange that.
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Don't worry. They will catch up their scores soon enough.
 
Bogative said:
The sad part is you probably believe this.

We are currently at 69 mass shootings this year, none of them have been done by a white supremacist.
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But isn't White supremacy the cause of all the mass shootings? You need to try harder, dude. Remember, there is always a way to blame it (and every bad thing) on White people.
 
Interesting piece about the brain of the Maine shooter.

According to the lab’s report, prepared on Feb. 26 and updated on Wednesday, the white matter that forms the wiring deep in the brain had “moderately severe” damage, and in some areas was missing entirely. The delicate tissue sheaths that insulate each biological circuit lay in “disorganized clumps,” and throughout Card’s brain there was scarring and inflammation suggesting repeated trauma.
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Scrambled. I wonder why.

https://www.wral.com/story/profound...gunman-s-brain-possibly-from-blasts/21316975/
 
The final tally for March mass shootings are in at gva.org.

34 total. 8 more than February.
36 killed. The same number as February.
142 wounded. 38 more than February.

A few of the notables, and by notables I mean shootings with double digit casualty counts and more killed than wounded.


Shooting up n da club. Witnesses are refusing to cooperate. 1 killed, 12 wounded.
https://www.wcbi.com/still-no-arrests-made-in-club-oasis-shooting-investigation/

Shooting at a birthday party. "Gang involvement." 4 killed, 7 wounded.
https://kion546.com/top-stories/202...om-stolen-car-used-in-the-king-city-shooting/

Domestic violence. Black male. 3 killed, 1 wounded.
https://www.cbs7.com/2024/03/12/11-...2-other-women-were-fatally-shot-sheriff-says/

And one honorable mention, and by "honorable" I mean totally ******* retarded.
8 wounded in a targeted shooting that injured high schoolers/teens. 4 black males, also teens, went to the SEPTA bus stop in broad daylight and opened fire on one individual using a "Glock with a switch." In broad daylight, in front of multiple witnesses, in front of cameras.
https://6abc.com/septa-bus-stop-shooting-manhunt-us-marshals-philadelphia/14519524/



Still no white supremacist mass shooters this year.
 
arthwollipot said:
Why "obviously"?
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WHAT DOES COULTER'S LAW MEAN?

Named after a 2015 tweet from provocative conservative political commentator, Ann Coulter, Coulter’s Law states that the longer it takes the news media to identify a mass shooter in the United States, the less likely it is to be a white male.
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https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/coulters-law/


It's obvious because the shooting happened at 2:30 in the afternoon in front of a thousand people during a major Muslim holiday. 5 people were arrested immediately after the shooting and police officials along with the media can't be bothered to give us a description.

If it was some anti-Islamic MAGA type we would know. The chances of any of the people who were arrested being white are slim to none.
 
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