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Theory of Special Relativity is wrong

Thabiguy

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Joined
Feb 3, 2007
Messages
814
This thread has been created to allow the poster GMB to debate his claims with willing forum members, without disturbing other threads.

The title has been taken straight from one of GMB's posts:

Since the question cannot be answered the theory of special relativity is wrong. Simple as that. I can see you are holding back a lot of non-falsifiable garbage.

I will not quote the messages that GMB posted prior to his suspension, but to get the discussion started, I will quote some of the messages that he posted after he had returned, which reiterate his position and claims:

The appeal to "frame of reference" is a perpetual series of spoon-bender distractions. There is only one relevant "frame of reference" and that frame of reference is REALITY.

Always when we see the phrase "frame of reference" we are asked to take seriously appeals to pseudo-science since in all such cases no evidence is ever offered or yet even capable of being offered.

We need to follow the example of the Amazing Randi and chase out every last bit of voodoo from academic life and not merely from stage acts.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfMsZwr8rc

"Relativity of simultaneity means that two events that are simultaneous in one frame are not simultaneous in another. "

This is rubbish and there is no such thing. Yet people are prattling on failing to distinguish between their version of what the theory says, and what would happen in reality. To interpret this theory as if it were revealed truth is to make a stooge of oneself. If something is simultaneous it is simultaneous IN REALITY and this reality is not dependent on this "frame of reference" sleight of hand.

In fact there can never be anything such as time dilation. Since there is no time to dilate. Time being merely a derived concept, derived from simultaneity and regular motion.

Its really very rude for people to prattle on in the vain when they know they have absolutely no evidence whatsoever for these spoon-bending absurdities. If two events are simultaneous they are simultaneous no matter what. No evidence exists otherwise or ever could exist otherwise. Everything that happens simultaneous happens at the same time everywhere. And in that last sentence the word time is a redundancy since time itself is derived from this simultaneity.

Note that spoon-bender-central could not make up its mind about the Dingle refutation. The official story about the clocks running slower than eachother was a committee decision and not something that the theory originally resolved. But our spoon-benders came out with at least 3 different answers anyway. Since we have had at least three versions of which clock ticks slower. The twins refutation IS the clocks refutation. They are the same refutation. They are the very same story. Notions to do with the aging of cells under acceleration are speculative. But notions to do with this same matter under different velocities are not. Since velocity is a relative concept. Hence it is ACCELERATION that we need to investigate as to its effect on this or that. Not velocity.

"Except that it's been experimentally observed. Small fly in your ointment there, pal."

No it hasn't. There is no such thing as time dilation. Any effect so observed may be related to acceleration. But all this spoon-bender talk, to the contrary notwithstanding, it has not been observed with regard to velocity and never could be.

Lets hope that from now on, spoon-benders-united, can word things, so as to differentiate between reality and their own personal version of this failed and self-contradictory theory.

The problem is that the priesthood has been taken over by maths-boy 101. Its as if they chased out the natural philosophers and brought in Rainman. In fact the maths-barrier is the only reason the spoon-benders have been able to prevail in this area. In economics its the pull of parasitism. Here its the shield of advanced maths.

Being as the clocks and twins refutation are the self-same refutation spoon-benders everywhere might want to contemplate how three or more answers to the same refutation were possible. I'm not sure I want to know your explanations actually. It will be the same nonsense and "look over there!!!!" distractions.

But there can be no doubt about it that the refutation stands. At least it stands while any skeptics are still in the room while the spoon-bender goes to work. What we are not going to see is people scrambling over each-other to prove that this nonsense has been experimentally observed.

Directly below what do we see? A clarification of which answer to the clocks refutation spoon-benders are going to keep a united front on? I don't THINK!!!so. Well perhaps we see the evidence forthcoming for the wrong notion that time dilation has been experimentally verified? No thats not what we see directly below either.

Instead what we see is spoon-bender-central asking skeptics to leave the room. All skeptics must leave the room. Only the credulous and other spoon-benders need apply to stay on. Hurts their aura does this skepticism. Makes their powers weak.

Enjoy.
 
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Always when we see the phrase "frame of reference" we are asked to take seriously appeals to pseudo-science since in all such cases no evidence is ever offered or yet even capable of being offered.
How could special relativity be asking us to take pseudo-science seriously, when the frames of reference could be calculated, and so far, experiments to test its calculations have been independently verified, all over the world?
 
Instead what we see is spoon-bender-central asking skeptics to leave the room. All skeptics must leave the room.

You weren't asked to leave the room: you were given the microphone and spotlight.

The stage is yours.
 
Relativity is just a theory. I dispute it in favor of the Discovery Institute's "Intelligent Absolute Frame of Reference."
 
Im at a loss. I thought that the theories of GR and SR were implicit in the operation of GPS systems. You know, being used constantly 24/7. Thankyou GMB for pointing out the errors in my thinking....

http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/gps-relativity.asp

....or maybe not

skb

Your link is not in favour of special relativity. Your link is sticking up for an augmented Lorentz relativity. I've got no cause to be suspicious of this Lorentz relativity. There is nothing voodoo about it that I can see. It ought to be the default position at the moment until the whole deal can be reworked. It ought to have precedence over special relativity from first principles. No Dingle question needs to be refuted under this alternative to my knowledge.

Notice that when push came to shove Sol Invictus sort of retreated to the Lorentzian core of the issue. That part of relativity where he knew he was on firm ground.
 
Notice that when push came to shove Sol Invictus sort of retreated to the Lorentzian core of the issue. That part of relativity where he knew he was on firm ground.

You don't understand the meaning of the words you're using.

Let's try something: GMB, do you agree that the laws of physics are the same in all inertial reference frames? In other words, do you agree that inside a sealed laboratory in interstellar space, there is no experiment one can do to determine at which velocity the laboratory is moving?
 
GMB, do you agree that the laws of physics are the same in all inertial reference frames?

Speak English. I know what you mean but you are not saying what you mean. The fact is that the laws of physics are the same no matter what.

Say what you mean. The laity does not know that you are sloganising when you make that dopey cliched statement. Thats a mantra. A stupid mantra.

The laws of physics are the same no matter what. This is not the same subject as what you are trying to put about I know. Now you say what you mean in direct English. So that the average person can see what claims it is you are making.
 
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Speak English. I know what you mean but you are not saying what you mean. The fact is that the laws of physics are the same no matter what.

Say what you mean. The laity does not know that you are sloganising when you make that dopey cliched statement. Thats a mantra. A stupid mantra.

The laws of physics are the same no matter what. This is not the same subject as what you are trying to put about I know. Now you say what you mean in direct English. So that the average person can see what claims it is you are making.


I can't wait for sol to answer. Can you restate what me means, in plain English, please?
 
GMB, imagine you are in a plane flying along but you can't see out the windows or anything. The plane is travelling REALLY fast, but it is a perfectly smooth ride. So you can't feel how fast the plane is travelling. Got that?

Now imagine a fly hovering in front of your face in the plane. Is that fly (1) not moving at all? (2) travelling at the same speed as the plane is? (3) travelling at some huge speed around the sun? (4) travelling at some ginormous speed around the galaxy?

Having made your choice, prove it is not one of the other choices.
 
You know, I am neither all that smart nor highley educated, yet I know enough to clearly understand what Sol was aking.

GMB isn't, but thinks he is smart enough to contradict Einstein, and all the reasearchers who have verified his work.

Amazing...
 
"do you agree that the laws of physics are the same in all inertial reference frames?"

This is an incredible bait-and-switch. Unbecoming of a physicist. But this is how bad things have gotten. What happens here is that the heretic is supposed to agree to something that is not what it appears to be. Sol Invictus is quite capable of making his overly strong claim specific rather than couching it in a mantra.

No-one needed to invent the idea that the laws of physics were the same anywhere. No prior view of physics, certainly not Newtonian physics, claimed that the laws of physics were arbitrary and that they changed from time to time and place to place. So why use such a stupid phrase to describe something else entirely.

Its actually the pattern with the special relativity apologists. They claim to be advocating a system where velocity is relative. For all of prior history we already knew that velocity was relative. But then special relativity comes out with its outrageous velocity-absolutism. So this is a theology that is the opposite of what it pretends to be. Its in no way a doctrine of velocity relativity. It is the opposite of such a doctrine.

And likewise we have the same sort of double-talk when it comes to the behavior of light. Sol Invictus, if he chose to speak English, would almost definitely be talking about a property of light. Why he would bring the phrase "inertial frames" he will have to explain to you. Since he will then have to explain why he thinks that the laws of physics otherwise always change.

So supposing I said no. Supposing I said that I don't agree. This is a verbal trick he would be using to deceive third parties. But the laws of physics are the same everywhere as far as anyone knows. And there is no point talking about frames. Its a daft idea. We ought to talk about realty. Not try and frame little chunks of reality off as if reality isn't an holistic whole.

On the other thread the voodoo claim was made that simultaneity itself was relative. Which is utter nonsense. And a confession of the absolutism of the speed of light in this doctrine. Only when you take an absolutist view to velocity do you have to proclaim anything so absurd as the idea that simultaneity is relative.
 
Your link is not in favour of special relativity. Your link is sticking up for an augmented Lorentz relativity. I've got no cause to be suspicious of this Lorentz relativity. There is nothing voodoo about it that I can see. It ought to be the default position at the moment until the whole deal can be reworked. It ought to have precedence over special relativity from first principles. No Dingle question needs to be refuted under this alternative to my knowledge.
You're wrong. General relativity contains all the "weirdness" of special relativity and then some.

I'd like to ask you a question. If you think the Dingle argument is a total refutation of special relativity, then why do you think all the physicists disagree with him? Do you think phycisists are too stupid to understand an extremely simple argument like that? Or do you think that thousands of physicists around the world have agreed to keep Dingle's refutation of relativity a secret? Why would they all agree to join this enormous conspiracy? Who's behind the consipiracy? Is it the jews or the shape-shifting aliens?
 
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GMB, imagine you are in a plane flying along but you can't see out the windows or anything. The plane is travelling REALLY fast, but it is a perfectly smooth ride. So you can't feel how fast the plane is travelling. Got that?

Now imagine a fly hovering in front of your face in the plane. Is that fly (1) not moving at all? (2) travelling at the same speed as the plane is? (3) travelling at some huge speed around the sun? (4) travelling at some ginormous speed around the galaxy?

Having made your choice, prove it is not one of the other choices.

Zep what an incredibly stupid question. Velocity is relative. Only special relativity disputes this. You really have the wrong end of the stick here. Special relativity is a doctrine of velocity-absolutism.
 
You're wrong. General relativity contains all the "weirdness" of special relativity and then some.

No its you that are wrong. Yes its true that general relativity is built on special relativity. But I didn't mention general relativity once. So it was you that was wrong. Your reading comprehension was a complete failure. And everything I said that you quoted stands. Lorentz relativity doesn't contain the voodoo of the Einstein version. Thats what I said. How handicapped do you people have to be to respond to something entirely different to what I said.

Go back and read. Do better next time.
 
"I'd like to ask you a question. If you think the Dingle argument is a total refutation of special relativity, then why do you think all the physicists disagree with him?


THEY DON'T. AND THE DINGLE REFUTATION IS TOTAL INDEPENDENT OF WHAT I SAY ABOUT IT. THIS IS CLEAR IN TERMS OF STRAIGHT LOGIC.

"Do you think phycisists are too stupid to understand an extremely simple argument like that?"

PLENTY OF PHYSICISTS WOULD HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT ITS A TOTAL REFUTATION.

"Or do you think that thousands of physicists around the world have agreed to keep Dingle's refutation of relativity a secret? "

NONE OF THEM TREAT IT AS A SECRET. GIVE ME SOMETHING TO WORK WITH FOR PETES SAKES.
 
Zep what an incredibly stupid question. Velocity is relative. Only special relativity disputes this. You really have the wrong end of the stick here. Special relativity is a doctrine of velocity-absolutism.
I'll ignore the insults for now. And I haven't mentioned special or any other colour relativity yet. Please answer the question as put. It's in plain English, no "cliches", and is simple enough for a child to understand. So we'll move on from kindergarten as soon as you answer.
 
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No where does special relativity say that velocity is absolute, or that the speed of light is infinate. It says that C is a constant regardless of the frame of reference of the observer.

If you can't understand the difference, you have no business being so aggressive in your presentation of your flawed premise.
 
Quit your appallingly aggressive behavior and comprehend this: Its YOU that doesn't understand the difference and are working on false premises and I can prove it:

It says that C is a constant regardless of the frame of reference of the observer.

Thats an aspect of velocity absolutism right there. And it stands in TOTAL CONTRADICTION to the idea that velocity is relative. The two concepts are entirely incompatible. This is where the inertial frames scam comes in. Once you have contradicted the concept of relative velocity you have to chop reality into bits and pieces to make that JIVE fly.
 
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How you use it? Right. Thats science right there.... (not). Try and get your wording as clear as possible and this will hopefully allow you to become less confused. The fault is all your own.

I am sorry, but thou art in error.

C is a constant. Like g, it's value never changes. That is how we define the word constant.

So I'm going to bow out because I am not arguing with someone who cannot understand constants.
 
SR doesn't show, for example, that clocks in motion measure different time from clocks at rest. It shows that they measure difference time and that the difference agrees with the quantitative predictions of SR.

Also, a theory is good if it agrees with experiment up to the available precision and since zero mass for a photon satisfies this condition and has done so for almost 100 years or so, you will have to deal with it GMB.

http://www.physorg.com/news9248.html (one more succesful test of SR)

*Relativity in the Global Positioning System

The appeal to "frame of reference" is a perpetual series of spoon-bender distractions. There is only one relevant "frame of reference" and that frame of reference is REALITY.

Well you see for example Einstein's relativity postulate, necessity of differentiating between the concepts is given, as the formentioned refers to uniform rectilinear motion and not circular motion, so frames of reference in arbitrary motion are not inertial frames.

What is the experimental basis of Special Relativity?
Excerpt thereof:
""Physics is an experimental science, and as such the experimental basis for any physical theory is extremely important. The relationship between theory and experiments in modern science is a multi-edged sword:
It is required that the theory not be refuted by any undisputed experiment within the theory's domain of applicability.
It is expected that the theory be confirmed by a number of experiments that:
- cover a significant fraction of the theory's domain of applicability.
- examine a significant fraction of the theory's predictions."
...

That being said, as of this writing there are no reproducible and generally-accepted experiments that are inconsistent with SR, within its domain of applicability."

Your link is not in favour of special relativity. Your link is sticking up for an augmented Lorentz relativity. I've got no cause to be suspicious of this Lorentz relativity. There is nothing voodoo about it that I can see. It ought to be the default position at the moment until the whole deal can be reworked. It ought to have precedence over special relativity from first principles.

Most of the mathematical tools used in Special Relativity was, yes, created by Lorentz, Hertz, Maxwell, Poincaré etc. This is however not equivalent with having reached the breakthrough of revealing a testable, workable formulation of Special Relativity under the umbrella of a theory.
Poincaré for example, he acknowledged the Lorentz aether which assumes the existence of a privileged aether frame. He expressed his agreement with Lorentz in the following terms:
"the results I have obtained agree with those of Mr. Lorentz in all important
points. I was led to modify and complete them in a few points of
detail"

This agreement implies that the speed of light is isotropic exclusively in the privileged frame, as is easily deduced from Lorentz theory (for that, see his explanation of Michelson's experiment where the speed of light is c+v or c-v in the two opposite directions)

Einstein considered that the relativity principle was not compatible with a preferred frame. Einstein first considered this aether; the privileged frame matter, as superfluous. He did never acknowledge the existence of a preferred frame, so his theory was compatible with the relativity principle. So, Lorentz and Poincare developed most of the math used, but never fully embraced the principles behind it.

Stephen Hawking in "A Brief History of Time: From the Big Bang to Black Holes" writes;
Between 1887 and 1905 there were several attempts, most notably by the Dutch physicist Hendrik Lorentz, to explain the result of the Michelson-Morley experiment in terms of objects contracting and clocks slowing down when they moved through the ether. However, in a famous paper in 1905, a hitherto unknown clerk in the Swiss patent office, Albert Einstein, pointed out that the whole idea of an ether was unnecessary, providing one was willing to abandon the idea of absolute time. A similar point was made a few weeks later by a leading French mathematician, Henri Poincare. Einstein's argument were closer to physics than those of Poincare, who regarded this problem as mathematical. Einstein is usually given credit for the new theory, but Poincare is remembered by having his name attached to an important part of it." (pp. 22-23)

Ergo, before SR, there was something called Fitzgerald-Lorentz contraction. To understand this, one must know how a Michelson interferometer works.
If there were an ether, the green path would be parallel to Earth's velocity through the ether, also the blue path would be purpendicular.
What MM (Michelson-Morley) observed was that the length of the two paths was different (even though the arrangement was perfectly symmetric, to check this it suffices to rotate the apparatus 90º and measure again).
Fitzgerald-Lorentz explained that the green path was contracted due to its movement though the ether. The ratio of lengths was;
latex.php

The explanation, if I understood it correctly, is that the FL (Fitzgerald-Lorentz) contraction is absolute, while Special Relativity predicts a relative contraction.

In other words, in the FL explanation there is an ether, there is a concept of absolute motion and an observer at rest with respect to the ether measures objects in movement as contracted.
However In Special Relativity, there is no absolute concept of rest, hence an outside observer would measure a moving train as contracted, yet another observer on the train would also see the first one on the station contracted.
This is one important difference between the FL contraction and SR. Empirically, Special Relativity wins hands down.

Another huge difference is that the FL contraction is a bit of an ad hoc explanation if you will, with no basis. Simply, I think it is correct to say that it's is just an artificial way of preserving the concept of an "ether". Special Relativity though, is derived from two physical postulates with a simple meaning and it is real science, ie falsifiable with experiment.
 
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Well you are talking the talk white lion so lets have that evidence for the main voodoo propositions of special relativity.

Anything that special relativity predicts can be predicted with other models not given over to such voodoo and arbitrary assumptions. Therefore Occams razor prevails.
 
No its you that are wrong. Yes its true that general relativity is built on special relativity. But I didn't mention general relativity once. So it was you that was wrong. Your reading comprehension was a complete failure. And everything I said that you quoted stands. Lorentz relativity doesn't contain the voodoo of the Einstein version. Thats what I said. How handicapped do you people have to be to respond to something entirely different to what I said.

Go back and read. Do better next time.
My advice to you is the same. Go back and read. Do better next time. skbuncks posted a link about how GPS systems must take relativistic effects into account. You dismissed it with the motivation that it wasn't about special relativity, and said that you have no cause to be suspicious about the kind of relativity that the article is talking about. That article is about both special and general relativity.
 
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"Einstein considered that the relativity principle was not compatible with a preferred frame. "

You are stooging yourself by your unwillingness to speak in plain English. The principle of relativity is consistent with an integrated holistic reality. It is incompatible with a theory of velocity absolutism.
 
It seems that the clocks showing different time passing (presumably the example was a spaceship and earth system) example has been put to GMB.

I am unclear - what was his explanation for two clocks travelling at relatively very different speeds showing different time having elapsed?
 
Speak English. I know what you mean but you are not saying what you mean.

Then why didn't you read the sentence immediately following the one you quoted, where I said precisely what that means in non-technical terms?

You're an ignorant fool, but I'll continue this for entertainment purposes for the moment.

sol invictus said:
GMB, do you agree that the laws of physics are the same in all inertial reference frames? In other words, do you agree that inside a sealed laboratory in interstellar space, there is no experiment one can do to determine at which velocity the laboratory is moving?

It's a yes or no question. So for the second time: yes or no?
 
Anything that special relativity predicts can be predicted with other models not given over to such voodoo and arbitrary assumptions. Therefore Occams razor prevails.

Excellent. Great. Put your money where your mouth is and provide a model that can account for all of SRs observations better than it can. That means a) demonstrating observations that SR cannot account for, and b) that this other theory can account for them.

I trust you'll have links to references for these models swiftly and put me in my place.

Athon
 
Well you are talking the talk white lion so lets have that evidence for the main voodoo propositions of special relativity.

Are you serious, I just gave you the evidence, ie the experimental confirmations of it. Since you didn't check, here are some of them:

http://www.physorg.com/news9248.html (a succesful test)

  • The Michelson and Gale Experiment (Nature 115 (1925), pg 566; Astrophys. J. 61 (1925), pg 137.)
  • g−2 Experiments as a Test of Special Relativity: Newman et al., Phys. Rev. Lett. 40 no. 21 (1978), pg 1355. P.S. Cooper et al., Physical Review Letters 42 (1979), pg 1386. Farley et al., Nuovo Cimento Vol 45, pg 281 (1966). Bailey et al., Nuovo Cimento 9A, pg 369 (1972). Bailey et al., Phys. Lett. 68B no. 2 (1977), pg 191.
  • The Brookhaven experiment to measure g−2 for muons, http://www.g-2.bnl.gov/
  • The Fizeau Experiment: Bilger et al., Phys. Rev. A5 (1972) pg 591. James and Sternberg, Nature 197 (1963), pg 1192.
  • Particle-Based Experiments: Nguyen, H.H., “CPT results from KTeV”, (2001). arXiv:hep-ex/0112046. Schwingenheuer, B. et al., “CPT tests in the neutral kaon system”, Phys. Rev. Lett., 74, pg 4376–4379, (1995). Carey, R.M. et al., “New Measurement of the Anomalous Magnetic Moment of the Positive Muon”, Phys. Rev. Lett., 82, pg 1632–1635, (1999). (Reinhardt's Ph.D. thesis, 2005) http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/...xte/2005/5934/pdf/doktorarbeit_sreinhardt.pdf
  • Calorimetric Test of Special Relativity: .R. Walz, H.P. Noyes and R.L. Carezani, Physical Review A29 (1984), pg 2110.
  • Twin Paradox: C. Alley, “Proper Time Experiments in Gravitational Fields with Atomic Clocks, Aircraft, and Laser Light Pulses,” in Quantum Optics, Experimental Gravity, and Measurement Theory, eds. Pierre Meystre and Marlan O. Scully, Proceedings Conf. Bad Windsheim 1981, 1983 Plenum Press New York, ISBN 0-306-41354-X, pg 363–427. Bailey et al., “Measurements of relativistic time dilation for positive and negative muons in a circular orbit,” Nature 268 (July 28, 1977) pg 301.
  • Doppler Shift Measurements: McGowan et al., Phys. Rev. Lett. 70 no. 3 (1993), pg 251. Olin et al., Phys. Rev. D8 no. 6 (1973), pg 1633. Mandelberg and Witten, Journal Opt. Soc. Amer. 52, pg 529 (1962).
  • Measurements of Particle Lifetimes: D. Frisch and J. Smith, “Measurement of the Relativistic Time Dilation Using Mesons”, Am. J. Phys. 31 (1963) 342. Ayres et al., Phys. Rev. D3 no. 5 (1971), pg 1051.
  • The Ives and Stilwell Experiment: H.E. Ives and G.R. Stilwell, “An Experimental Study of the Rate of a Moving Atomic Clock”, J. Opt. Soc. Am. 28 pg 215–226 (1938); JOSA 31 pg 369–374 (1941). Hasselkamp et al., Z. Physik A289 (1989), pg 151.
  • Other Experiments: Coleman and Glashow, “Cosmic ray and Neutrino Tests of Special Relativity”, preprint arxiv:hep-ph/9703240. Coleman and Glashow, “High-Energy Tests of Lorentz Invariance”, preprint arxiv:hep-ph/9812418.
  • The Trouton-Noble Experiment: Tomaschek, Ann. d Phys. 78 (1926), p743; 80 (1926), pg 509.
  • Zhang, Special Relativity and its Experimental Foundations.
  • The Kennedy-Thorndike Experiment
  • Wolf and Petit, “Satellite test of special relativity using the global positioning system”, Phys. Rev. A 56, p4405 (1997).

Anything that special relativity predicts can be predicted with other models not given over to such voodoo and arbitrary assumptions. Therefore Occams razor prevails.

You wouldn't find anywhere near the same concistent empirical accuracy. However, feel free to provide specific experiments and results thereof if you wish.
 
"Einstein considered that the relativity principle was not compatible with a preferred frame."

See what you seem to be saying here is that a preferred frame is an holistic view of reality. One where simultaneity is not arbitrary.

Hence what you appear to be saying is the following:

"Einstein considered that the relativity principle was not compatible with an holistic reality. With a reality based view of the situation"

You see its pretty clear that he cut corners and just made a whole lot of jive up. They had a problem. They couldn't quite square the answers to it. So he makes all these arbitrary assumptions. Like that there is no aether. And he takes an absolutist view of the speed of light. He says that space can curve or be compressed or stretched. Which is a blatant contradiction. Then there was time dilation which is absolute rubbish as well. Tendentiously created to solve a problem that they were finding difficult to solve.

There was absolutely no cause to make these other-worldly assumptions. They had a problem and sometimes you can get stuck on a problem for a very long time. Thats normal. But its not normal to just make the thing up tendentiously as a way of solving the mathematical side of the problem.

" Einstein first considered this aether; the privileged frame matter, as superfluous...." Thats a silly consideration right there.

"He did never acknowledge the existence of a preferred frame...." speak English. You are saying he didn't acknowledge the existence of an objective reality. Which means of course that he set flight into mysticism and voodoo.

" so his theory was compatible with the relativity principle......"

No it isn't. Velocity-absolutism is in total contradiction to velocity absolutism.

" So, Lorentz and Poincare developed most of the math used, but never fully embraced the principles behind it."

Neither should they have. They knew full well that Einstein had cut corners to come up with a pseudo-solution first to a problem that was proving intractable at the time. Thats one way to get there first. Show up with a pseudo-solution that is really forcing a square peg into a round hole.
 
Look White Lion. One macroscopic reference would do if any one of them were any good. They are all crap. They do not confirm the voodoo aspects of special relativity. So why don't you take one of them, have a good look at it, and show me why it is you think that it is evidence for some voodoo aspect of special relativity.

I'm an atheist. So I don't think you can do it.
 
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speak English. You are saying he didn't acknowledge the existence of an objective reality. Which means of course that he set flight into mysticism and voodoo.

I.e the given aether that was hypothesized, if this is your way of defining objective reality (aether) then you are neither speaking english or the language of empirical science.

Hence what you appear to be saying is the following:

The preferred frame was the hypothesized aether, I am not sure what your inference with "holistic reality" is about, since you do not specify anything with calculative details or examples, as opposed to rant on using a word you like.

There was absolutely no cause to make these other-worldly assumptions. They had a problem and sometimes you can get stuck on a problem for a very long time. Thats normal. But its not normal to just make the thing up tendentiously as a way of solving the mathematical side of the problem.

And when you have a mathematically valid tool together with a specific approach and prediction, and when this is confirmed again and again my experiments, you have something there (unless you ask GMB who will say "holistic reality" and deny).
 
Look White Lion. One macroscopic reference would do if any one of them were any good. They are all crap. They do not confirm the voodoo aspects of special relativity. So why don't you take one of them, have a good look at it, and show me why it is you think that it is evidence for some voodoo aspect of special relativity.

I'm an atheist. So I don't think you can do it.

You have a chance here to actually give an on-point critique on the basis of given experiments. A recent one was the initial site linked, but am I too go through them all for you, with nothing but an objection from you based on "holistic reality" sans any calculative rebuttal?

You first, the gauntlet is given of the experimental basis which you can't very well determine to be all crap in one turn and then ask to know what they are about. :rolleyes:
 
"And when you have a mathematically valid tool together with a specific approach and prediction, and when this is confirmed again and again my experiments, you have something there.."

Its a mathematical template for predictions is all. I know you are not finding any evidence for any of the voodoo assumptions within this bogus theory. So your filibuster begins now. We cannot really accept microscopic evidence since there is too many speculative aspects to it. And the potential for circularity is clear.

But fire away with your evidence. We will see that you don't have any.
 
So go over it again and this time in plain english. You ought not have tried that particular scam on in the first place. Lets make your wild claim explicit.
Is this some form of strange stock answer you use to avoid answering direct questions?

The question was very simple and in completely clear plain english.

Do you agree that inside a sealed laboratory in interstellar space, there is no experiment one can do to determine at which velocity the laboratory is moving?

Surely that is a simple question to understand and answer?
 
Third parties please note. At this point we can predict that white lion will fall in line with the practice of the filibuster. As good as he has been with the history this is what we can expect from here on in.

The idea if he wasn't shooting blanks, would be to go to a specific voodoo aspect of special relativity, and then find the right study or data, and then to explain in his own words very clearly why he thinks that this constitutes evidence.

He won't do it.

Because he doesn't have such a study available to him.
 

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