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The Subway Strangler finally arrested

Penny did an interview with the NY Post. Nothing much said, at lawyer recommendation of course. But he is downplaying the Marine thing and pretty over-the-top playing up the wholesome surfer dude thing. It's a bit obnoxious, this whole "I love all the peoples of the world" thing, but I guess when you choke a homeless guy to death in front of an audience, you gotta run your image enhancement. The only thing that seemed interesting was that he said he'd do it again.
 
Thermal said:
Penny did an interview with the NY Post. Nothing much said, at lawyer recommendation of course. But he is downplaying the Marine thing and pretty over-the-top playing up the wholesome surfer dude thing. It's a bit obnoxious, this whole "I love all the peoples of the world" thing, but I guess when you choke a homeless guy to death in front of an audience, you gotta run your image enhancement. The only thing that seemed interesting was that he said he'd do it again.
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He has never claimed nor has anyone ever claimed that the guy took a swing at anybody. Nor did the guy go to anyone specific person and say I'm going to hurt you. Therefore, the use of deadly force does not seem to be justified.
 
Thermal said:
Penny did an interview with the NY Post. Nothing much said, at lawyer recommendation of course. But he is downplaying the Marine thing and pretty over-the-top playing up the wholesome surfer dude thing. It's a bit obnoxious, this whole "I love all the peoples of the world" thing, but I guess when you choke a homeless guy to death in front of an audience, you gotta run your image enhancement. The only thing that seemed interesting was that he said he'd do it again.
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I question the wisdom of making public statements before the case is done. maybe there's some value in trying to bias potential jurors, I dunno.
 
theprestige said:
There's a lot of stuff I got "taught" perfunctorily in basic training that wasn't part of the qualification requirements. We ran through the bayonet course one day. We were not tested or required to qualify in any way with a bayonet. We got introduced to hand grenades, and spent a day throwing live and dummy grenades in various scenarios. We were not tested or required to qualify in any way with the bayonet. We spent a morning with padded helmets and foam quarterstaves, taking turns pummeling each other. We were not tested, etc. We spent a couple afternoons going through the motions of entry-level "hand to hand" combat drills. We were not tested, etc.

We spent a lot of time maintaining and firing our standard-issue assault rifles. We all graduated from basic regardless of whatever level of proficiency we had managed to reach with these tasks.

Etc.

Really, the only two ways to wash out of basic were: Absolute inability to reach the minimum physical fitness standards, as measured by push-ups, sit-ups, and the two-mile run. And extreme disciplinary issues.
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Long post to agree that he was trained in chokeholds.
 
Hercules56 said:
He has never claimed nor has anyone ever claimed that the guy took a swing at anybody. Nor did the guy go to anyone specific person and say I'm going to hurt you. Therefore, the use of deadly force does not seem to be justified.
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He sort of vaguely suggested that witnesses were in agreement that Neely was far more threatening than media has portrayed him as being. I suppose we'll see, but unless some major narrative altering testimony comes out regarding Neely being menacing, this boy should be surfing the Gen Pop wave pretty soon.
 

Opening statements delivered in manslaughter trial of Daniel Penny in NYC subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely​

Penny “went way too far” and violated “law and human decency” by putting Neely, a homeless street artist, in a fatal chokehold, the prosecution argued.

The defense countered that Penny was responding to a threat, and his actions that day prove he is not someone who “devalued human life” under the circumstances.

Neely, who is Black, had boarded a crowded subway in Manhattan and was acting erratically and loudly yelling, according to witnesses. Penny, who is White, then grabbed Neely from behind and put him in a chokehold, and he maintained that hold for about six minutes, including after Neely stopped moving, according to prosecutors.
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So Penny basically agrees with the events laid out by the prosecution. He just feels like it was okay to do. Sooooo... he's going to prison for kind of a long time? Because it's not okay to murder people?

Penny's lawyers have $3mil in cash to play with, apparently donated to Penny's legal fund by members of FOMNIP (Fans Of Murdering Negros In Public), so they'll be getting new cars and all. So that's nice.

Seriously: this dude put the homeless guy in a choke (when no one asked for lethal help, and Neely hadn't done anything but be a NYC homeless guy), claiming he was Batman protecting the citizens. Well, the citizens cleared off the car at the next stop, but Penny kept him in that messed up choke for an additional six minutes, just the two of them alone in the car, and he kept the choke on after Neely stopped moving. Then applied no first aid, despite having been formally trained.

Murder. Off to Cell Block C with the mother ◊◊◊◊◊◊, and forfeit his assets to his victims family.
 
The jury deliberating in the Daniel Penny case looks like it may be hopelessly deadlocked on the manslaughter 2nd degree charge. Penny is also charged with criminally negligent homicide but the jury cannot consider that charge until it reaches a unanimous verdict on the manslaughter charge. .

The Manhattan jury deliberating Daniel Penny’s case in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on a New York City subway last year said Friday they were deadlocked on the manslaughter charge, but the judge instructed them to continue deliberations. Judge Maxwell Wiley gave the instruction over objections from Penny’s defense attorneys who moved for a mistrial over the deadlocked panel of 12 Manhattanites. “It’s not time for a mistrial,” Wiley told the attorneys outside the presence of the jury.

One male juror shook his head looking down as Wiley instructed the jury to “be flexible” as they move forward in deliberations. CNN news article link
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Now it's being reported the manslaughter charge has been dismissed. Next week the jury will deliberate on the lesser criminally negligent homicide charge.
 
It's official. The jury in the trial of Daniel Penny -- for causing the death of a homeless New York City man named Jordan Neely -- will begin deliberating Monday on a lesser charge of criminally negligent homicide. The judge dismissed the manslaughter two charge late Friday afternoon at the request of the Manhattan DA's office.

A judge granted a motion from Manhattan prosecutors to dismiss the more serious charge of second-degree manslaughter against Daniel Penny on Friday in his trial over the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on a New York City subway last year. The ruling clears the way for the jury to consider a remaining lesser charge of criminally negligent homicide. It came after a Manhattan jury said they were deadlocked twice on the manslaughter charge and Penny’s defense attorneys renewed their motion for a mistrial.

Over defense objections, Judge Maxwell Wiley agreed with prosecutors, who argued that dismissing the first count of second-degree manslaughter eliminates the defense’s concern about a compromise verdict.CNN news link
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Penny arriving back in court this afternoon
 
The jury hung on the more serious charge, but are confident he did not commit the lesser. This is why I hate people.
 
theprestige said:
Getting hung, and then having the judge dismiss the charge, perhaps reset their thinking about the case.
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I would have assumed more dispute over the higher charge, but a virtual shoe-in for the lesser. Hardly my first crushing disappointment today.

That NYC assassin should have just choked Thompson to death and walked free.
 
Thermal said:
I would have assumed more dispute over the higher charge, but a virtual shoe-in for the lesser. Hardly my first crushing disappointment today.

That NYC assassin should have just choked Thompson to death and walked free.
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We keep getting crazy violent people on our light rail. Often with bloody, sometimes with lethal results. I wouldn't object to a few more civic minded riders ready to choke a bitch out. And if Little Miss Axe Crazy happens to expire from axe-crazy-related complications? That's what jury nullification is for.

Penny did the right thing, in good faith and to the best of his ability. He should be celebrated, not persecuted.
 
theprestige said:
We keep getting crazy violent people on our light rail. Often with bloody, sometimes with lethal results. I wouldn't object to a few more civic minded riders ready to choke a bitch out. And if Little Miss Axe Crazy happens to expire from axe-crazy-related complications? That's what jury nullification is for.

Penny did the right thing, in good faith and to the best of his ability. He should be celebrated, not persecuted.
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I just can't bring myself to seeing Neely as a deadly threat. Loud, obnoxious, disturbing homeless guy? Sure. Dime a dozen in any big city. But that's not reason to kill him. And he did kill him. Gruesomely, slowly, painfully.
 
Ziggurat said:
The people who were there perceived him as such. I think they understood the situation better than you.
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Maybe. Or they were cowards. Or intolerant bigots, or a mix.

Doesn't change that they left the car, and Penny kept him in that ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up stranglehold till he stopped moving, then wouldn't apply first aid.

Even if restraining Neely was reasonable, killing him wasn't.
 
Thermal said:
Maybe. Or they were cowards. Or intolerant bigots, or a mix.
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Or maybe they were just ordinary, reasonable people.

I know which way I'm betting.
Thermal said:
Doesn't change that they left the car, and Penny kept him in that ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up stranglehold till he stopped moving, then wouldn't apply first aid.
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Dude. The POLICE failed to apply proper first aid. He was alive when they took custody of him, he died under their care.
Thermal said:
Even if restraining Neely was reasonable, killing him wasn't.
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There is nothing to suggest that Penny was trying to kill Neely, or that he should have expected his actions to lead to that outcome.
 
Ziggurat said:
Or maybe they were just ordinary, reasonable people.

I know which way I'm betting.
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I have a rule: don't kill till there's no question that you absolutely have to. I didn't hear the slightest whisper of testimony that Neely was anything but a typical homeless guy.
Ziggurat said:
Dude. The POLICE failed to apply proper first aid. He was alive when they took custody of him, he died under their care.
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Right. I'm not defending them either. But the police hadn't spent the ladt six minutes slowly choking the life out of the guy either.
Ziggurat said:
There is nothing to suggest that Penny was trying to kill Neely, or that he should have expected his actions to lead to that outcome.
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Except that he did in fact kill him, and slowly. It wasn't a quick judgement error.
 
Ziggurat said:
Or maybe they were just ordinary, reasonable people.

I know which way I'm betting.

Dude. The POLICE failed to apply proper first aid. He was alive when they took custody of him, he died under their care.

There is nothing to suggest that Penny was trying to kill Neely, or that
he should have expected his actions to lead to that outcome.
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I haven't followed the case super closely, but highlighted is the key. The video sure looks like he was pretty unresponsive while Penny was still keeping him in (what appeared to be) a pretty tight chokehold. He certainly knew from his training it could result in death. I think there was such a grey area with all the mixed medical evidence about factors that may have contributed to his death, that the jury fell back on reasonable doubt. In a civil case, where the burden is much lower, I could see Penny being held liable.
 
Thermal said:
I have a rule: don't kill till there's no question that you absolutely have to. I didn't hear the slightest whisper of testimony that Neely was anything but a typical homeless guy.
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Wait... you didn't hear the testimony that he threatened to kill people, or you think that's typical homeless guy behavior?
 
stanfr said:
I haven't followed the case super closely, but highlighted is the key. The video sure looks like he was pretty unresponsive while Penny was still keeping him in (what appeared to be) a pretty tight chokehold. He certainly knew from his training it could result in death. I think there was such a grey area with all the mixed medical evidence about factors that may have contributed to his death, that the jury fell back on reasonable doubt. In a civil case, where the burden is much lower, I could see Penny being held liable.
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*OJ shoots double finger guns*
 
Ziggurat said:
Wait... you didn't hear the testimony that he threatened to kill people, or you think that's typical homeless guy behavior?
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I can't count how many times someone has threatened to kill me. Yet my body count remains a shocking zero.
 
Thermal said:
I can't count how many times someone has threatened to kill me. Yet my body count remains a shocking zero.
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Did they act like they might try? Was it in an enclosed space where retreat wasn't possible?

You seem remarkably blasse about accepting death threats on behalf of other people.
 
Ziggurat said:
Did they act like they might try? Was it in an enclosed space where retreat wasn't possible?

You seem remarkably blasse about accepting death threats on behalf of other people.
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Talk's cheap. And guys in bars foaming at the mouth seemed awfully credible, and yes in enclosed spaces. With me outnumbered.

You'll have to excuse me but recent threads have my heart broken right now and I can't continue. I have killings to plan.
 
Thermal said:
Talk's cheap.
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Indeed. Your talk is very cheap.
Thermal said:
And guys in bars foaming at the mouth seemed awfully credible, and yes in enclosed spaces. With me outnumbered.
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Ah. You get yourself into violent situations. Because you can tolerate it, you expect others to as well.
Thermal said:
You'll have to excuse me but recent threads have my heart broken right now and I can't continue. I have killings to plan.
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It's funny how many people who claim to be so troubled by violence also seem so ready to resort to it themselves.
 
Ziggurat said:
Indeed. Your talk is very cheap.
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So are random pissy insults.
Ziggurat said:
Ah. You get yourself into violent situations. Because you can tolerate it, you expect others to as well.
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Who said that? Couldn't I go to a sports bar to watch the game and get accosted by drunk patrons for wearing the wrong jersey?

But yeah I kinda do. Not on purpose.
Ziggurat said:
It's funny how many people who claim to be so troubled by violence also seem so ready to resort to it tthemselves.
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Violence is fine. Good and healthy, at times. Unecessary violence against the weak is contemptible.
 
Thermal said:
Violence is fine. Good and healthy, at times. Unecessary violence against the weak is contemptible.
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Was Neely weak? He didn't appear to be. Were other passengers on the train that he threatened weak? Yes, they were. And his threat of violence was indeed contemptible.
 
Ziggurat said:
Was Neely weak? He didn't appear to be. Were other passengers on the train that he threatened weak? Yes, they were. And his threat of violence was indeed contemptible.
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Incoherent babbling by homeless guys doesn't swing my meter to credible, imminent bodily harm. But whatever. It's over, till the civil suit comes along.
 
Thermal said:
Incoherent babbling by homeless guys doesn't swing my meter to credible, imminent bodily harm. But whatever. It's over, till the civil suit comes along.
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In my neck of the woods, incoherent babbling by a homeless guy is a common warning sign or accompaniment of bodily harm to others.

Also, it sounds like Neely's babbling was quite coherent, given everybody understood what he meant, and interpreted it as a clear threat.
 
theprestige said:
In my neck of the woods, incoherent babbling by a homeless guy is a common warning sign or accompaniment of bodily harm to others.

Also, it sounds like Neely's babbling was quite coherent, given everybody understood what he meant, and interpreted it as a clear threat.
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A threat by someone who's apparently "not all there" doesn't warrant a lethal response. Proportionality and imminence are not trifling details.
 
Thermal said:
A threat by someone who's apparently "not all there" doesn't warrant a lethal response. Proportionality and imminence are not trifling details.
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Your first sentence has nothing to do with your second sentence. Someone being "not all there" doesn't mean the threat they pose isn't serious or imminent.
 
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