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The Scam That Tricked Millions of Athletes

Roboramma said:
I think Orphia's use of "cow-orker" is just an old meme from this forum's JREF days, not necessarily a comment on her relationship to that particular person.

"Commenting skeptically" could be taken in many different ways, but it's not obviously bullying. She could very plausibly just have expressed doubt in its usefulness and explained why.
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Indeed.


My workmate is (still) also a friend.

I can't recall if I ever called her a cow-orker. Yes, it's a forum meme, but I would wish I'd used it in that office, they all loved a joke.

I have no idea if my comment (part of a group conversation spearheaded by others, IIRC) caused her to stop wearing it. Correlation is not causation. She was open to the idea of the band being dubious.

Theprestige's comment says more about him than it does about me.
 
Puppycow said:
It's all explained in the video. They made a bunch of bogus claims, but they were very popular for a while. All sorts of professional athletes, celebrities, even Bill Clinton wore one (which was news to me since I didn't remember that).
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You're trying to tell me there are a lot of stupid athletes and celebrities? Oh cmon. If that was true, there wouldn't be millions of people hanging on their every word, duh! Next thing you'll tell me Dianetics is bogus even after Tom Cruise came out and backed it...and he's studied psychology!
 
catsmate said:
Meh, people still buy "RFID blocking" wallets.
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Actually those are a real thing, and protect against a real problem (being 'walk by skimming', which does actually happen)

An emerging type of card skimming works like digital pickpocketing. It affects people with cards that have contactless payment capabilities. In such cases, a criminal uses a Radio Frequency IDentification (RFID) scanner to walk near enough to get a card’s details while it stays in the owner’s wallet.
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Many 'tap and go' cards have a lowish limit (often $50 or $100) where a pin isn't required, and these can be 'pick pocketed' by someone carrying a portable scanner- this is where the (real) 'RF blockers' come into play...

It's been around for a few years now...

https://www.makeuseof.com/what-are-card-skimmers/
(above quote is from there)
 
Dabop said:
Actually those are a real thing, and protect against a real problem (being 'walk by skimming', which does actually happen)



Many 'tap and go' cards have a lowish limit (often $50 or $100) where a pin isn't required, and these can be 'pick pocketed' by someone carrying a portable scanner- this is where the (real) 'RF blockers' come into play...

It's been around for a few years now...

https://www.makeuseof.com/what-are-card-skimmers/
(above quote is from there)
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And easily testable via a simple double-blind experiment that can be conducted by anyone at home. :thumbsup:
 
Dabop said:
Actually those are a real thing, and protect against a real problem (being 'walk by skimming', which does actually happen)



Many 'tap and go' cards have a lowish limit (often $50 or $100) where a pin isn't required, and these can be 'pick pocketed' by someone carrying a portable scanner- this is where the (real) 'RF blockers' come into play...

It's been around for a few years now...

https://www.makeuseof.com/what-are-card-skimmers/
(above quote is from there)
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But the RFID info lifted by a scanner is a one time use code, only good for a few seconds or minutes, so it becomes a little impractical to steal, and the author below points out there is not one reported instance of this kind of thing. It's more theory than live threat.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/are-rfid-blocking-products-worth-your-money-we-asked-an-expert/

Tl; Dr on the link: the article says the wallets work, but the threat isn't real. You're probably protected by the card issuer anyway if it was real, which it's not. Focus on real, demonstrable threats, not James Bond fashion accessories.
 
Thermal said:
But the RFID info lifted by a scanner is a one time use code, only good for a few seconds or minutes, so it becomes a little impractical to steal, and the author below points out there is not one reported instance of this kind of thing. It's more theory than live threat.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/are-rfid-blocking-products-worth-your-money-we-asked-an-expert/

Tl; Dr on the link: the article says the wallets work, but the threat isn't real. You're probably protected by the card issuer anyway if it was real, which it's not. Focus on real, demonstrable threats, not James Bond fashion accessories.
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I received an RFID-blocking wallet as a gift a few years ago. It was the perfect gift at the time. The giver knew needed a wallet, knew I was looking for something slim, and got me exactly what I had in mind. And, from one nerd to another, we both agreed the RFID-blocking was a nice feature to have.

Finally, this year, the wallet finally fell apart. When I looked for a replacement, none of the slimmest wallets included RFID-blocking. Since I really wanted the slimmest possible wallet, i decided to rethink the value I put on the RFID-blocking features. Turns out I don't really care about it anymore. Like you say, any real risk is mitigated by the protocol itself, and by the card issuer.
 
theprestige said:
I received an RFID-blocking wallet as a gift a few years ago. It was the perfect gift at the time. The giver knew needed a wallet, knew I was looking for something slim, and got me exactly what I had in mind. And, from one nerd to another, we both agreed the RFID-blocking was a nice feature to have.

Finally, this year, the wallet finally fell apart. When I looked for a replacement, none of the slimmest wallets included RFID-blocking. Since I really wanted the slimmest possible wallet, i decided to rethink the value I put on the RFID-blocking features. Turns out I don't really care about it anymore. Like you say, any real risk is mitigated by the protocol itself, and by the card issuer.
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There's a solid argument to be made that it's better to have it and not need it, etc, especially in the case of debit cards, where actual cash can be pulled from your account. I guess some entrepreneurial thug could devise a fast acting theft system that transfers funds to a throwaway account, and walking through a crowd could nab thousands and vanish before anyone caught up with him. Seems like if it was that easy, though, it would be happening at every public gathering worldwide. Doesn't seem to be.

The low tech scam of hustling card info (that anyone who sees the card can secure) and running Card Not Present phone or online purchases has been taking off again in my neck of the woods. Lowes and Depot have been auto declining purchase attempts like this lately because it got so bad. Since I often rely on phone orders to get materials delivered, it's become a real nuisance.
 
Thermal said:
It's frankly stunning that anyone anywhere took these things seriously enough to test them. They put little hologram discs (featuring the company logo) in a silicone band and say that the holograms interact with your body's "energy field" and makes you better, stronger, faster. I mean...wtf is wrong with these people? They are like literally magic beans that you can't even eat.
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Professional sports people seem to be as a class very superstitious, so probably primed to accept more out there claims. It's a strange contrast given how much actual science goes into giving them that extra .05 second.
 
Darat said:
Professional sports people seem to be as a class very superstitious, so probably primed to accept more out there claims. It's a strange contrast given how much actual science goes into giving them that extra .05 second.
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i agree but there's a pretty big divide between the guys doing the science and the guys doing the sports. the sports guys really trust the science guys. higher level sports too is really entangled into marketing and advertising, aka manipulation. when these guys aren't on the field covered in logos while they themselves are covered in logos, they're making paid appearances and pushing brands. it doesn't matter if it works or you believe or don't, you're being paid to wear it and push it.
 
Darat said:
Professional sports people seem to be as a class very superstitious, so probably primed to accept more out there claims. It's a strange contrast given how much actual science goes into giving them that extra .05 second.
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That extra 0.05 second can be mistaken for placebo, and vice versa.

Is the jury still out on Kinesio tape, or was that a fad that's, er, run its course?
 
Orphia Nay said:
That extra 0.05 second can be mistaken for placebo, and vice versa.

Is the jury still out on Kinesio tape, or was that a fad that's, er, run its course?
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Never tried it but...

Kenzo Kase, a Japanese-American chiropractor, developed the product in the 1970s. The company he founded markets variants under the brand name "Kinesio" and takes legal action to prevent the word being used as a genericised trademark.
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BWARP BWARP BWARP!! Weeee Wooo Wee Woo!!

That was the WOO! alert siren that went off on my first five seconds of investigation.

My guess is that it is highly effective in one way. Tape it over the nipples to avoid chaffing when running on cold days.
 
Dabop said:
Actually those are a real thing, and protect against a real problem (being 'walk by skimming', which does actually happen)
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Bollocks. "Walk by skimming" is a myth. If you wish to claim it is real cite actual cases.
 
angrysoba said:
Never tried it but...



BWARP BWARP BWARP!! Weeee Wooo Wee Woo!!

That was the WOO! alert siren that went off on my first five seconds of investigation.

My guess is that it is highly effective in one way. Tape it over the nipples to avoid chaffing when running on cold days.
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The tape is great for bandages, holding gauze on, etc. Also for cutting designs and wearing as colored decorations attach well and come off easily, but only when you want them to.

But as far as cutting them in different designs supposedly to help your muscles? No. At the Honolulu Marathon, in which I think at least 50% of the participants were Japanese, I saw dozens of shaped designs on peoples' calves.
 
Orphia Nay said:
That extra 0.05 second can be mistaken for placebo, and vice versa.

Is the jury still out on Kinesio tape, or was that a fad that's, er, run its course?
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I still see it on some American football players. Bottom line is if you wear it, and it makes you feel better (even if strictly the power of suggestion), and you consequently are more psyched and perform optimally, then it "works". Kind of like if you are dressed to the nines, you'll feel more confident. There's a weird distinction between a placebo and things that legitimately help you get "in the zone".
 
I believe some of the use of alternative sports aids by stars is actually distraction from plain old cheating
 
Thermal said:
I still see it on some American football players. Bottom line is if you wear it, and it makes you feel better (even if strictly the power of suggestion), and you consequently are more psyched and perform optimally, then it "works". Kind of like if you are dressed to the nines, you'll feel more confident. There's a weird distinction between a placebo and things that legitimately help you get "in the zone".
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"You see, through the power of psychology, you have learned that you don't need a silly bracelet. The power to be a better athlete was inside you all along!"

"Yeah, but this has taken me years, and cost me tens of thousands of dollars. The bracelet cost me thirty bucks and started working immediately."
 
theprestige said:
"You see, through the power of psychology, you have learned that you don't need a silly bracelet. The power to be a better athlete was inside you all along!"

"Yeah, but this has taken me years, and cost me tens of thousands of dollars. The bracelet cost me thirty bucks and started working immediately."
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QED with a side dish of ECON 101.

Eta: seriously though, a personal power totem isn't a bad thing, as long as you don't think it's actually magic. "This gadget/article of clothing makes me feel like a million bucks" is not something that needs to be wholesale discouraged like the plague.
 
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Thermal said:
QED with a side dish of ECON 101.

Eta: seriously though, a personal power totem isn't a bad thing, as long as you don't think it's actually magic. "This gadget/article of clothing makes me feel like a million bucks" is not something that needs to be wholesale discouraged like the plague.
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I mean, snake oil is an offense to reason, and to ethical commerce, so I'm not inclined to give it much of a pass. But it does raise an interesting utilitarian question of ethics. It made people happy. Does it really matter how?
 
All kinds of magical lore makes all kinds of kids happy.

Is it more wrong to sell them a a magical toy than an overpriced bike they will outgrow in a couple of years?

And FWIW, no surprise that millions of athletes were "tricked"..

After all, millions of them were tricked in high school and college to believe exceeding in athletics was more important than getting a decent education.
 
Skeptical Greg said:
All kinds of magical lore makes all kinds of kids happy.

Is it more wrong to sell them a a magical toy than an overpriced bike they will outgrow in a couple of years?

And FWIW, no surprise that millions of athletes were "tricked"..

After all, millions of them were tricked in high school and college to believe exceeding in athletics was more important than getting a decent education.
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Well, it did get them laid a lot more.
 
theprestige said:
I mean, snake oil is an offense to reason, and to ethical commerce, so I'm not inclined to give it much of a pass. But it does raise an interesting utilitarian question of ethics. It made people happy. Does it really matter how?
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I'd say it depends on the level of deception. With the hologram bracelets and Kinseo tape, I don't think there was much more than a half-hearted attempt to deceive, really not much more than a magic crystal. Rabbits feet were a popular keychain good luck charm, no? Yet I don't think many thought they actually brought on the favor of the fates. It was very casual, maybe playful, to the user. I think the tapes and bracelets were more of an "I live and breathe my commitment to this ****" fashion accessory. I don't see much ethical breach by the manufacturers there. They laid out their weak pseudoscientific claims for all to see. If you wanted to believe in snazzy sporty accessories, you were likely to do so no matter what the specifics of the claim were.
 
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Mojo said:
In 2011 the Grauniad/Observer got a bit of stick after running a credulous story about it: https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2011/jul/31/readers-edittor-sports-medicine
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Thanks for the article.

I was a regular runner between 2015 and 2022 and saw so many people I ran with using the tape, but I always thought there was no mechanism by which it would work (excluding placebo), and never used it myself.

Some of these people also used acupuncture/dry needling, which wasn't exactly a recommendation for their analytical abilities. :D

Oh, and compression socks worn when running... :oldroll:
 
I've done the applied kinesiology demonstration myself. It's a sequence of tricks, that you might be able to do perform on somebody without realising that they're tricks, but I doubt it.
 
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