Cont: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine part 8

[theprestige]

Zelensky said that he's willing to give up territorial claims to Belgorod* in exchange for membership of NATO.


*it has sometimes been part of Ukrainian territory, so as valid a claim as many Russian claims on territory.

It's funnier when you tell the whole anecdote:

In a recent interview, a reporter asked Zelensky if Ukraine was willing to consider territorial concessions in exchange for peace.

"We're willing to give up Belgorod," said Zelensky.​

A quick glance at a map gives his answer some spice.

(Supposedly the reporter later apologized for couching his question in those terms.)

 

[Aridas]

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-august-20-2023

Not actually that surprising

Not even a little, really, given that it's a rather normal Russian tactic, as far as I understand. I think that similar tactics have much to do with why a number of us so strongly disapprove of what Michel H advocates, too. Rewarding tactics of destabilization, ethnic cleansing, and military aggression will just make those tactics more attractive to every country with territorial ambitions, which will lead to greater suffering for everyone in the world.

 

[Wildy]

I find the contrast between these two posts to be striking.

A very sad event indeed.

One six-year-old girl was killed (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66554412 ).

The BBC article explains:

The theatre was hosting a gathering of drone manufacturers, the acting mayor of Chernihiv told the BBC.

"I understand that their aim was a military event taking place in the building of the drama theatre and that it was their target," Oleksandr Lomako said.

Ukraine is doing pretty much the same, although probably on a somewhat smaller scale:

Ukraine shells Donetsk with cluster munitions again (PHOTOS)
Civilians were killed and injured by US-supplied ordnance, authorities say

(https://www.rt.com/russia/581372-donetsk-shelling-civilians-killed/ ).

This is why I have proposed (like others) several times a peace plan (which involves territorial concessions by Ukraine), in order to end this conflict, but Ukrainian nationalistic fanaticism makes it hard to accept.

It's interesting to note the clear whataboutism in play when Russia kills civilians. Sharing an article by RT about Ukraine shelling Donetsk to make it seem like Russia's actions aren't that bad.

But lets take a look at what happens when Ukraine kills civilians:

Not just paranoia, the risks are real.

When Ukraine attacked the Kerch bridge on July 17, two civilians died, and their child was injured.

A war crime is a violation of the laws of war that gives rise to individual criminal responsibility for actions by combatants in action, such as intentionally killing civilians

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime).

RT is now reporting:

Ukraine shells Donetsk with cluster munitions again (PHOTOS).
Civilians were killed and injured by US-supplied ordnance, authorities say

(https://www.rt.com/russia/581372-donetsk-shelling-civilians-killed/).

RT has also recently published a report about an intelligent analysis of this conflict (and its possible solution) made by former president of France Nicolas Sarkozy:

France’s Sarkozy urges West to get real on Crimea
Europe and Russia need each other, the former French president has said

(https://www.rt.com/news/581378-sarkozy-crimea-get-real/).

What do we see here? A condemnation of Ukraine's actions and an argument that they are committing a war crime. The same "Donetsk is being shelled" article is shared, but this time it's to support the idea that the Ukrainians are nothing but war criminals. We don't see the whataboutism we saw with the Russian killing of civilians, instead all blame is placed on the Ukrainians for their actions.

 

[Michel H]

Again Michel, we all know you're a vatnik. The only real question is do you KNOW you're spreading lies or are you actually gullible enough to believe the Kremlin mouthpieces at RT.

I sometimes criticize the Kremlin too, but somehow this tends to get ignored.

Sure, you can feel comfortable bashing Russia all day long with some friends.

But a question you might ask yourself is this: does this stop the violence, the killing, the destruction, the economic and environmental crisis ?

Does this kind of talk resonate in Moscow, in Beijing, in Africa, in Tehran, in Pyongyang ?

I doubt it, and it seems impossible to attain peace quickly if you are unable to extract yourselves from your easy certainties, possibly gathered on the various Western news websites.

 

[lobosrul5]

Lookin like some major ground taken by Ukraine south of Robotyne!! Tokmak is maybe within 155m range now.

Their source is just some telegram link in Ukrainian though.

https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/21-august-ukrainian-defense-forces-have-success-southeast

I sometimes criticize the Kremlin too, but somehow this tends to get ignored.

Sure, you can feel comfortable bashing Russia all day long with some friends.

But a question you might ask yourself is this: does this stop the violence, the killing, the destruction, the economic and environmental crisis ?

Does this kind of talk resonate in Moscow, in Beijing, in Africa, in Tehran, in Pyongyang ?

I doubt it, and it seems impossible to attain peace quickly if you are unable to extract yourselves from your easy certainties, possibly gathered on the various Western news websites.

Maybe, just maybe, Russia deserves to be bashed? Have you given any thought to that? Good god you'd be the guy in 1940 saying: actchwually the Germans deserve to have Alsace back, and have you seen the poll taken by the SS that shows 104% of people there want to be German!

 

[Michel H]

I find the contrast between these two posts to be striking.



It's interesting to note the clear whataboutism in play when Russia kills civilians. Sharing an article by RT about Ukraine shelling Donetsk to make it seem like Russia's actions aren't that bad.

But lets take a look at what happens when Ukraine kills civilians:



What do we see here? A condemnation of Ukraine's actions and an argument that they are committing a war crime. The same "Donetsk is being shelled" article is shared, but this time it's to support the idea that the Ukrainians are nothing but war criminals. We don't see the whataboutism we saw with the Russian killing of civilians, instead all blame is placed on the Ukrainians for their actions.

International law applies to all equally, of course, and it seems that both countries (Russia and Ukraine, in alphabetical order) kill or injure civilians sometimes.

In order to stop this sad process, the best way is to stop the war, in a way which might be acceptable and liveable to both parties.

A purely pro-Ukraine peace plan won't get you very far, make no mistake about this.

 

[Michel H]

Lookin like some major ground taken by Ukraine south of Robotyne!! Tokmak is maybe within 155m range now.

Their source is just some telegram link in Ukrainian though.

https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/21-august-ukrainian-defense-forces-have-success-southeast



Maybe, just maybe, Russia deserves to be bashed? Have you given any thought to that? Good god you'd be the guy in 1940 saying: actchwually the Germans deserve to have Alsace back, and have you seen the poll taken by the SS that shows 104% of people there want to be German!

If only France had not had the bad idea of declaring war on Germany in 1939 ...

 

[lobosrul5]

https://by.usembassy.gov/alert-u-s-embassy-minsk-belarus-august-21-2023/

US Embassy urging all remaining US citizens of Belarus to get out now... do they know something is coming??

 

[Wildy]

International law applies to all equally, of course, and it seems that both countries (Russia and Ukraine, in alphabetical order) kill or injure civilians sometimes.

And yet you only seem to apply international law to one side, while ignoring it for the other. One side has shown itself to have actively targeted civilians throughout this conflict and yet you still actively defend Russia's actions by creating a false equivalence between the two sides.

In order to stop this sad process, the best way is to stop the war, in a way which might be acceptable and liveable to both parties.

A purely pro-Ukraine peace plan won't get you very far, make no mistake about this.

And your purely pro-Russian "peace plan" would?

 

[Wildy]

https://by.usembassy.gov/alert-u-s-embassy-minsk-belarus-august-21-2023/

US Embassy urging all remaining US citizens of Belarus to get out now... do they know something is coming??

Hopefully all that is coming is just a closure of the border crossings which would prevent US citizens from being able to leave Belarus.

 

[kookbreaker]

I sometimes criticize the Kremlin too, but somehow this tends to get ignored..

Because you occasionally flicking a booger in the direction of the Kremlin is not very notable given the hatred and shirt-rending you aim at Ukrainians for merely existing.

 

[kookbreaker]

If only France had not had the bad idea of declaring war on Germany in 1939 ...

We know you love the Nazis. You don’t need to keep reminding us.

 

[Pixel42]

International law applies to all equally, of course, and it seems that both countries (Russia and Ukraine, in alphabetical order) kill or injure civilians sometimes.

In order to stop this sad process, the best way is to stop the war, in a way which might be acceptable and liveable to both parties.

A purely pro-Ukraine peace plan won't get you very far, make no mistake about this.

Every single death in this war - Russian and Ukrainian, civilian and soldier - is on Putin. Not a single one of those deaths would have occurred if he had not chosen to illegally invade a sovereign nation, forcing it to defend itself. The only acceptable peace plan is the complete withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine. Anything else rewards Putin's unprovoked aggression, and pretty much guarantees it will eventually be repeated.

 

[Michel H]

And yet you only seem to apply international law to one side, while ignoring it for the other. One side has shown itself to have actively targeted civilians throughout this conflict and yet you still actively defend Russia's actions by creating a false equivalence between the two sides.

A purely pro-Ukraine peace plan won't get you very far, make no mistake about this.

And your purely pro-Russian "peace plan" would?

My suggested peace plan isn't purely pro-Russian (I haven't felt a real need to change it, after many months).

I would just ask the Russian army to withdraw to their February 23, 2022 positions (going back to where they were then), Crimea and the two people's republics (Donetsk and Luhansk) may join Russia, Ukraine promises to stay neutral (i.e. to not join NATO) for at least 10 years, all sanctions are lifted, and there are no war reparations to pay by either side.

This is my peace plan, which I have tried to make very balanced, and which is based on a careful study of the political situation and its history.

 

[SpitfireIX]

You may say they are defending their homeland, which is true to some extent, but they are also trying to impose Ukrainian rule to pro-Russian regions and imposing (with their powerful allies) severe economic sanctions on Russia.

This leads me to say that Ukraine doesn't deserve a single penny of financial aid, or a single rifle or a single bullet (as military support).

All right, I see that we need to take it from the top (as usual).

Even granting, arguendo, that there are majorities in certain oblasts that are in favor of seceding from Ukraine, it doesn't matter. First, as has been explained to you ad nauseam, Russia agreed to respect Ukraine's internationally recognized borders in return for Ukraine's giving up its nuclear weapons. Full stop. Not "Russia agrees to respect Ukraine's internationally recognized borders unless parts of Ukraine decide [allegedly] that they want to become independent or join Russia, or we don't like the Ukrainian government."

Second, as has also been explained to you ad nauseam, during the Soviet era, the Soviets made extensive efforts to "Russify" Ukraine (including ethnic cleansing and even genocide); therefore, any claims that those Russified Ukrainians have some right to become independent or join Russia are illegitimate. Any ethnic Russians who are so keen to join Russia are free to move there; Russia could certainly use the extra population.

 

[lobosrul5]

If only France had not had the bad idea of declaring war on Germany in 1939 ...

Yes, then as now you decide that some countries should just be allowed to be conquered in the name of peace. Because your peace of mind is more important than other people being mascaraed and enslaved.

If Germany had attacked Belgium first, before Poland I'm sure you'd be quite OK with being under Nazi rule and your Jewish neighbors disappeared. <-- I meant the last sentence to be facetious, but after thinking about it, I'm not so sure you wouldn't actually have been unhappy under Nazi rule.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Officials have assured us that cluster munition use will be carefully documented, but surprise surprise, ask an actual artillery crewman and they respond "we ain't doing that".

In welcoming the U.S. decision to send the munitions, Ukraine’s Defense Ministry said Kyiv will keep a “strict record of the use of these weapons and the local zones where they will be used.” But when asked about how the documentation process works, Stanislav suggested that there was none. A public affairs officer later contradicted him, saying that every time the M109 shoots a round, the crew writes down what type of munition was fired and in what direction.

Honestly this is such an absurd lie that it hardly counts as dishonesty. If you think artillery crews are logging where and when they fire off these shells I have some collectable NFTs to sell you.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/08/21/ukraine-cluster-bombs-biden/

 

[lobosrul5]

My suggested peace plan isn't purely pro-Russian (I haven't felt a real need to change it, after many months).

I would just ask the Russian army to withdraw to their February 23, 2022 positions (going back to where they were then), Crimea and the two people's republics (Donetsk and Luhansk) may join Russia, Ukraine promises to stay neutral (i.e. to not join NATO) for at least 10 years, all sanctions are lifted, and there are no war reparations to pay by either side.

This is my peace plan, which I have tried to make very balanced, and which is based on a careful study of the political situation and its history.

100% up to the Ukrainian people to decide if thats acceptable or not.

Whats so ****** up about this whole thing is, we (the west) were quite content to let Russia gobble up part of Ukraine without giving much more than lip service: "thats bad Putin, stop... we're gonna slap some inconsequential sanctions on you". Had Russia been patient, and kept on going with the same plan of take a bit here, then exterminate the Ukrainian population, put in pro Russians, then repeat, they likely could've taken all of Ukraine east of Dnipro without the West supporting them. But, no. Patience is not a virtue for Russia. They had to make a full scale invasion that the West couldn't ignore. Shame on us for not showing some backbone much earlier.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I sometimes criticize the Kremlin too, but somehow this tends to get ignored.

Sure, you can feel comfortable bashing Russia all day long with some friends.

But a question you might ask yourself is this: does this stop the violence, the killing, the destruction, the economic and environmental crisis ?

No, but killing Russian soldiers and/or Putin would. Fortunately the Ukrainians are at least doing the former.

Does this kind of talk resonate in Moscow, in Beijing, in Africa, in Tehran, in Pyongyang ?

You mean in places with dictatorships that ruthlessly suppress any viewpoint not approved by the government? No, not usually it doesn't. Mostly because if I were in Moscow saying this, I'd be arrested. Like they do to anyone who criticises the regime. Including the elderly and children.

Why Africa though? Some African countries are not fans of Moscow. You can't just assume Africa is monolithic. It's very much not.

I doubt it, and it seems impossible to attain peace quickly if you are unable to extract yourselves from your easy certainties, possibly gathered on the various Western news websites.

Jesus christ, are you claiming that the Western media is lying about Russia's actions? Cos I have to tell you, they're not. They're not 100% accurate, no one is, but I'd far rather trust the independent media corporations of the West who are allowed to report on things without having to gain approval from the ruling poers than Russia Today, an organisation that is point blank not allowed to report anything that makes Putin look bad to the point where any journalists in the country who do are arrested.

Again, how do you not get this? Which is more likely to be a generally accurate reporting, the news corporations in a free country where they are allowed to report on what's actually happening, albeit with spin in how it's presented, or the sole news organ of an oppressive quasi-dictatorship that arrests journalists for reporting on things the government doesn't like?

Are you genuinely not able to comprehend that even with the political biases of the owners of the news organs in the West it's still a lot more reliable than Russia? That even the worst quality serious western news outlet isn't at risk of being closed down for reporting on things the ruling government of their country doesn't like?

You cannot be that thick. You cannot be stupid enough to think that Russia Today is just as or less biased than the BBC. No one who isn't immersed in Kremlin propaganda 24/7 could possibly believe that if they did more than 5 seconds investigating.

If only France had not had the bad idea of declaring war on Germany in 1939 ...

You're blaming France for WWII? Really?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Officials have assured us that cluster munition use will be carefully documented, but surprise surprise, ask an actual artillery crewman and they respond "we ain't doing that".



Honestly this is such an absurd lie that it hardly counts as dishonesty. If you think artillery crews are logging where and when they fire off these shells I have some collectable NFTs to sell you.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/08/21/ukraine-cluster-bombs-biden/

They will be logging ammunition expenditure, they will be logging where and when they conduct a shoot and how many rounds were requested and expended on each shoot

It's how they keep track of effectiveness, expenditure and resupply.
All fairly standard procedure for artillery.
It isn't a half trained rabble firing random rounds at random.

 

[theprestige]

Officials have assured us that cluster munition use will be carefully documented, but surprise surprise, ask an actual artillery crewman and they respond "we ain't doing that".



Honestly this is such an absurd lie that it hardly counts as dishonesty. If you think artillery crews are logging where and when they fire off these shells I have some collectable NFTs to sell you.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/08/21/ukraine-cluster-bombs-biden/

Logging fire missions is actually pretty normal practice. However, it's also a skill that needs to be trained and learned at several different levels in the chain of command. It's no surprise the Ukrainians aren't (yet) up to theoretical levels of NATO proficiency. I'm sure they will get better with time.

Meanwhile I'm also sure the hand-wringing over cluster munitions is just typical tankie/peacenik/vatnik/useful idiot jackassery.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Logging fire missions is actually pretty normal practice. However, it's also a skill that needs to be trained and learned at several different levels in the chain of command. It's no surprise the Ukrainians aren't (yet) up to theoretical levels of NATO proficiency. I'm sure they will get better with time.

Meanwhile I'm also sure the hand-wringing over cluster munitions is just typical tankie/peacenik/vatnik/useful idiot jackassery.

Considering the context, I suppose sending these rounds was probably the right move, but it's useful to point out when our leaders are telling bald-faced lies.

Much more honest to just admit that Ukraine's need is sufficient enough to accept the inherent dangers, including to civilian populations after the war, that come with using cluster munitions than pretend every munition is being carefully tracked and logged for safe disposal later. I guess some people need to tell themselves fairy tales to feel better about the cruel realities of war, but I don't see why this should be indulged, much less on a skeptic's board.

 

[theprestige]

Considering the context, I suppose sending these rounds was probably the right move, but it's useful to point out when our leaders are telling bald-faced lies.

Much more honest to just admit that Ukraine's need is sufficient enough to accept the inherent dangers, including to civilian populations after the war, that come with using cluster munitions than pretend every munition is being carefully tracked and logged for safe disposal later. I guess some people need to tell themselves fairy tales to feel better about the cruel realities of war, but I don't see why this should be indulged, much less on a skeptic's board.

I'm sorry you feel betrayed by your political leaders. Is there perhaps some other thread in which you could make your complaints on that topic - in USA Politics, perhaps? - rather than this thread, where the matter has already been well addressed?

 

[Andy_Ross]

But they know which units have the rounds and where the rounds are being used.

 

[lobosrul5]

This just in: war is chaotic, stay tuned for film at 11!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This just in: war is chaotic, stay tuned for film at 11!

Apparently this is news to some people, at least those for whom these whoppers about how these shells were going to be used was created for. I'll admit that even as propaganda it's pretty thin, because only a rube would have believed such a thing. I guess an obvious lie is a bit more PR savvy than admitting to an unpleasant truth.

 

[lobosrul5]

Apparently this is news to some people, at least those for whom these whoppers about how these shells were going to be used was created for. I'll admit that even as propaganda it's pretty thin, because only a rube would have believed such a thing. I guess an obvious lie is a bit more PR savvy than admitting to an unpleasant truth.

I'm not a rube, and I do believe that the UFA is doing what they reasonably can to ensure they know where the shells were fired. I do believe the citizen army of Ukraine cares about the potential for casualties after the war is over. I also don't believe their records will be perfect.

ETA: hell not even just civilian casualties after the war, they care because they may be advancing over said ground in the very near future.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm not a rube, and I do believe that the UFA is doing what they reasonably can to ensure they know where the shells were fired. I do believe the citizen army of Ukraine cares about the potential for casualties after the war is over. I also don't believe their records will be perfect.

Agreed, but what they reasonably can do is very limited, which is not the message being disseminated when these controversial weapons were first being shipped off.

The whole controversy about cluster munitions is that all the good intentions in the world don't matter one bit. It's the nature of the weapon to leave behind dangerous UXO.

 

[Flo]

The whole controversy about cluster munitions is that all the good intentions in the world don't matter one bit. It's the nature of the weapon to leave behind dangerous UXO.

The whole hypocritical controversy in this particular case is that none of those who claim to be horrified at the idea of the Ukrainians shooting cluster munitions at the Russputinians haven't ever shown any indignation at the Russputinians using them against civilians for the last year and a half !

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The whole hypocritical controversy in this particular case is that none of those who claim to be horrified at the idea of the Ukrainians shooting cluster munitions at the Russputinians haven't ever shown any indignation at the Russputinians using them against civilians for the last year and a half !

We're not arming the Russian side, we have very little recourse to object to their tactics. What do you want me to do, go on the roof and shake my fist at Putin?

 

[SpitfireIX]

You're blaming France for WWII? Really?

You haven't forgotten about this thread, have you?

 

[ginjawarrior]

It's the nature of the weapon to leave behind dangerous UXO.

Every area that they are being used in are already contaminated with mines....


They are going to have to clear the mines anyway. It's going to take years as it is.

Cluster munitions will help Ukraine win sooner and get to clearing those mines sooner.

The fields will be safer sooner due to cluster munitions.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Every area that they are being used in are already contaminated with mines....


They are going to have to clear the mines anyway. It's going to take years as it is.

Cluster munitions will help Ukraine win sooner and get to clearing those mines sooner.

The fields will be safer sooner due to cluster munitions.

All much more reasonable and truthful than fairytales about how artillery crews are going to carefully log and map how each shell is used.

I don't object to the use, I just chafe a bit at the obvious BS that was deployed to help smooth over any potential dissent here in the US for these weapons that are correctly perceived to be high risks for UXO casualties.

 

[Daald]

All much more reasonable and truthful than fairytales about how artillery crews are going to carefully log and map how each shell is used.

I don't object to the use, I just chafe a bit at the obvious BS that was deployed to help smooth over any potential dissent here in the US for these weapons that are correctly perceived to be high risks for UXO casualties.

I chafe at the fact that such smoothing was even necessary. It's their country and their choice. We shouldn't be handcuffing our friends when they are in an existential fight.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I chafe at the fact that such smoothing was even necessary. It's their country and their choice. We shouldn't be handcuffing our friends when they are in an existential fight.

They should be happy they have friends at all. Violations of sovereignty through illegal wars of aggression happen all the time, and often the US or the West doesn't give a **** or is even the ones directly perpetrating or indirectly supporting them. Ukraine finds itself in a unique position that they have powerful allies interested in helping them remain outside the Russian colonial grip.

The expression "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" comes to mind.

They wouldn't have to ask permission of anyone if they were supplying themselves, but that's not the case, is it?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

You haven't forgotten about this thread, have you?

Oh god I actually had. Good grief some people.

Ok so not just a vatnik but a fascist vatnik. Good to know.

 

[Daald]

They should be happy they have friends at all. Violations of sovereignty through illegal wars of aggression happen all the time, and often the US or the West doesn't give a **** or is even the ones directly perpetrating or indirectly supporting them. Ukraine finds itself in a unique position that they have powerful allies interested in helping them remain outside the Russian colonial grip.

The expression "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" comes to mind.

They wouldn't have to ask permission of anyone if they were supplying themselves, but that's not the case, is it?

Reminds me of all those church groups that make the homeless sit through a sermon before they feed them.

Yes, we have Ukraine over a barrel and they must swallow our gift.

 

[ginjawarrior]

All much more reasonable and truthful than fairytales about how artillery crews are going to carefully log and map how each shell is used.

I don't object to the use, I just chafe a bit at the obvious BS that was deployed to help smooth over any potential dissent here in the US for these weapons that are correctly perceived to be high risks for UXO casualties.

I'm confident they have a very good idea where most if not all are fired at.

The artillery aren't just firing blind into the fields targets are given from above and spotted by drone in most cases.

There's a conscious decision made between standard, Excalibur or cluster made and given to the artillery crews

I don't believe cluster would be fired unless they are ordered by command.

 

[lobosrul5]

They should be happy they have friends at all. Violations of sovereignty through illegal wars of aggression happen all the time, and often the US or the West doesn't give a **** or is even the ones directly perpetrating or indirectly supporting them. Ukraine finds itself in a unique position that they have powerful allies interested in helping them remain outside the Russian colonial grip.

The expression "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" comes to mind.

They wouldn't have to ask permission of anyone if they were supplying themselves, but that's not the case, is it?

No. We should be happy that Ukraine is taking up the fight for us, and spilling their blood with our old hand-me-down equipment. If they surrendered without a fight, Moldova would have already been next, and we'd be faced with the very real potential of Russia invading Poland, Romania, or other former Warsaw Pact countries now in NATO and having the debate whether or not a piece of paper saying we go to their defense worth WW3 or not.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

No. We should be happy that Ukraine is taking up the fight for us, and spilling their blood with our old hand-me-down equipment. If they surrendered without a fight, Moldova would have already been next, and we'd be faced with the very real potential of Russia invading Poland, Romania, or other former Warsaw Pact countries now in NATO and having the debate whether or not a piece of paper saying we go to their defense worth WW3 or not.

If you say so