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[Continuation] The Russian Invasion of Ukraine part 8

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crescent said:
As I understand it each round the Bradley fires is essentially a tracer round. So it looks really impressive. But it is hard to tell how much actual damage they cause vs. just moving more dirt piles around.
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Not exactly. The tracer component is separate from the warhead component. The warhead is either armor-piercing or high-explosive. Bradleys in US Army service typically carry a mix of both types, with the ability to switch between them. I don't know what the Ukrainians are loading, but whatever it is they're highly effective rounds in addition to being tracers.
 
theprestige said:
Not exactly. The tracer component is separate from the warhead component. The warhead is either armor-piercing or high-explosive. Bradleys in US Army service typically carry a mix of both types, with the ability to switch between them. I don't know what the Ukrainians are loading, but whatever it is they're highly effective rounds in addition to being tracers.
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Interesting, and I just looked up the Bushmaster to confirm. 50 cal for example has tracer rounds mixed in the belt. Every 5th is usually a tracer. But the 25mm Bushmaster is a tracer +AP/HE.
 
theprestige said:
Not exactly. The tracer component is separate from the warhead component. The warhead is either armor-piercing or high-explosive. Bradleys in US Army service typically carry a mix of both types, with the ability to switch between them. I don't know what the Ukrainians are loading, but whatever it is they're highly effective rounds in addition to being tracers.
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I agree that they are effective regardless of whether or not they are tracers.

But looking at the videos, every streak has an impact and there are no impacts without streaks. So every round fired by the Bradleys in Ukraine is a tracer. Maybe the U.S. Army didn't do it that way, but Ukraine does.

But it isn't clear what they are hitting. An effective round fired into a pile of dirt or into the ground of an open field still just moves the dirt around. There may be actual value in that as covering fire, but it is still a different thing than hitting vehicles or people (including close enough to injure) or fortifications. And from the videos it is hard to tell which is which.
 
Andy_Ross said:
Last night's big air attack is a sign of Russian desperation and last gasp punching.
They have spent months building up a stock of missiles and in a fit of rage over losing another ship have spaffed them away on a pointless revenge attack.
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I struggle to see what Putin thinks he'll achieve with this. It's hardly in the scale of the Blitz let alone the bombings of German cities - neither of which achieved their objectives. Or indeed any non-nuclear strategic bombing campaign.
 
jimbob said:
I struggle to see what Putin thinks he'll achieve with this. It's hardly in the scale of the Blitz let alone the bombings of German cities - neither of which achieved their objectives. Or indeed any non-nuclear strategic bombing campaign.
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Perhaps Putin wants to use up all his non-nuclear weapons so he can say he didn't have any choice, nukes were all that was left so that's why he has to use them?
 
crescent said:
But looking at the videos, every streak has an impact and there are no impacts without streaks. So every round fired by the Bradleys in Ukraine is a tracer. Maybe the U.S. Army didn't do it that way, but Ukraine does.
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You're still not getting it. The tip of each round is either armor-piercing or high explosive. Regardless of what's at the tip, the base of the round also includes a bright-burning compound that allows you to follow the round's trajectory - "trace" it. The tracer compound does not impair or detract from the effectiveness of the business end of the round. This supersedes the use of separate, less-effective "tracer only" rounds.

But it isn't clear what they are hitting. An effective round fired into a pile of dirt or into the ground of an open field still just moves the dirt around. There may be actual value in that as covering fire, but it is still a different thing than hitting vehicles or people (including close enough to injure) or fortifications. And from the videos it is hard to tell which is which.
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Which is why I try not to infer too much from such videos.
 
theprestige said:
You're still not getting it. The tip of each round is either armor-piercing or high explosive. Regardless of what's at the tip, the base of the round also includes a bright-burning compound that allows you to follow the round's trajectory - "trace" it. The tracer compound does not impair or detract from the effectiveness of the business end of the round. This supersedes the use of separate, less-effective "tracer only" rounds.


Which is why I try not to infer too much from such videos.
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You seem to have missed the first paragraph of my post.
 
jimbob said:
I struggle to see what Putin thinks he'll achieve with this. It's hardly in the scale of the Blitz let alone the bombings of German cities - neither of which achieved their objectives. Or indeed any non-nuclear strategic bombing campaign.
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I believe his goal is to convince the west that Ukraine can't win so that we withdraw support and/or pressure for negotiations so he has time to rearm. That's it. That's all he's got. Trump being the ... ahh ... Trump card in that calculation.
 
crescent said:
I agree that they are effective regardless of whether or not they are tracers.

But looking at the videos, every streak has an impact and there are no impacts without streaks. So every round fired by the Bradleys in Ukraine is a tracer. Maybe the U.S. Army didn't do it that way, but Ukraine does.
But it isn't clear what they are hitting. An effective round fired into a pile of dirt or into the ground of an open field still just moves the dirt around. There may be actual value in that as covering fire, but it is still a different thing than hitting vehicles or people (including close enough to injure) or fortifications. And from the videos it is hard to tell which is which.
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They do. Every 25mm Bushmaster round is a tracer AND either AP or HE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M242_Bushmaster

See the section on ammunition.
 
theprestige said:
I guess I don't understand why you think it's important that all the rounds fired by the Bradley autocannon are tracer rounds. Do you think the tracer rounds are somehow different from the "normal" rounds the Bradley fires?
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No, I don't think the tracer rounds function differently than non-tracer rounds.

But they look different - which may be impacting the public perception of the effectiveness of the Bradleys.

Compared to weapons platforms that use every 3, 4, or 5 round as tracer, the Bradleys look like they are firing more - even if they are not. It may be giving a false perception of the effectiveness of the vehicle.
 
wobs said:
Unfortunately I think Don is looking more right as time goes on.
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I think it's been more right than some for a long time now. I generally agree (give or take) with the Don's opinions.

Remeber when everyone was talking about Russia running out of munitions/missiles? Apparently they're not.

Western analyses generally suggest that Russia is not on the brink of running out of missiles
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They've lost strategically, that much is clear. They've burned through thousands of tanks and armored vehicles. They've lost control of the Black Sea to a country without a navy...

... yet someone still seems to need to inform someone in Russia of the fact that they've lost!
 
Yes, Russia really aren't going to run out of missiles as long as they can manufacture 100+ a month (and it seems that they can). For sure they can't launch tens or hundreds a day but they can stockpile them for attacks like in the past few days.

How they're getting the high tech components is a good question but Russia still has friends - and those for whom they're "my enemy's enemy" - around the world who are willing to buy their oil and/or sell them supposedly embargoed goods.

"We" think we are beloved around the world but the truth is that there are a lot of countries with flexible allegiance or even a deep hatred of the west and are only too happy to help Russia.

IMO Putin expects support from the West to wane rapidly, especially if the GOP holds the reins in the US. I fear he may not be wrong.
 
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Quality of munitions in the Russian forces isn't improving. Thier artillery guns are in poor shape, N Korean ammo is inconsistent and the missiles aren't being used to pinpoint military targets for the most part.
Also it's assured they too aren't getting enough quantities to do as they would like.

Appearances of winners or losers is going to ebb and flow a while longer. Let's just hope nato is committed to seeing Ukraine through this.
 
8enotto said:
Appearances of winners or losers is going to ebb and flow a while longer. Let's just hope nato is committed to seeing Ukraine through this.
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This.

But some here have objected to this as being too pessimistic. It's not pessimism, it's a call to action. At the very least, if you do nothing else, vote for politicians in your country who support NATO, arming Ukraine, etc.
 
crescent said:
I agree that they are effective regardless of whether or not they are tracers.

But looking at the videos, every streak has an impact and there are no impacts without streaks. So every round fired by the Bradleys in Ukraine is a tracer. Maybe the U.S. Army didn't do it that way, but Ukraine does.
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The simple answer is that there is no such thing as as a non-tracer Bushmaster round. Even the APDS and training ammo are tracer rounds.

Source: https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/medium-caliber-ammunition/25mm-bushmaster/
 
Moscow Deploys 35,000 National Guards to Counter
Partisans in Occupied Ukraine

Russia has become concerned about partisan activity and anti-Kremlin attitudes among the local population in the occupied territories of Ukraine as its presidential elections approach.
 
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that was in the Kyiv Post

for some reason I can't scroll up and down in new post or edit windows any more so I can't add anything to the original
 
Silly but I hadn't thought of it until now: all these new oblasts welcomed into mother Russia get a chance to vote for Putin now. I'm sure they can't wait.
 
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