The Derek Chauvin/George Floyd Murder Trial

smartcooky said:
*5 ANOTHER BARE FACED LIE. Floyd was already in the police car, They took him out. If they had left him in the car and driven back to the Police station, Floyd would in all likelihood, still be alive.
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Well, in all fairness, he was very uncooperative/resisting and I believe it was he who asked to be removed from the car, and perhaps even lie on the ground? Not that it changes a lot from a legal perspective, but let's not pretend that he didn't take some specific actions that directly led to his unfortunate circumstance.

This is outside of the fact that he was abusing substances that certainly didn't help his health situation in that moment.
 
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
*5 ANOTHER BARE FACED LIE. Floyd was already in the police car, They took him out. If they had left him in the car and driven back to the Police station, Floyd would in all likelihood, still be alive.
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HUH?????? You'd better go watch the bodycam footage again. Floyd pushed himself backward out of the other side of the car after he'd been put in it. Then, the officers put him back in the car on that side--the opposite side from which they'd put him in the first time. Then, after he continued to resist, they decided to pull him out and put him on the ground. Go watch the bodycam video.
 
Warp12 said:
Well, in all fairness, he was very uncooperative/resisting and I believe it was he who asked to be removed from the car, and perhaps even lie on the ground?.
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Really? That is what you are going with?

Since when do Police comply with a suspect's demands?
 
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mikegriffith1 said:
HUH?????? You'd better go watch the bodycam footage again. Floyd pushed himself backward out of the other side of the car after he'd been put in it. Then, the officers put him back in the car on that side--the opposite side from which they'd put him in the first time. Then, after he continued to resist, they decided to pull him out and put him on the ground. Go watch the bodycam video.
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HUH????? You'd better go watch the witness' footage again
 
Even if the getting out of the car bit is true…what kind of Keystone Coppery doesn’t cover the other side of the vehicle or lock the back doors?
 
bruto said:
No, but he stopped asking to breathe, so they can't be blamed for continuing to kneel on his dead body. He didn't object at all.
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I always laugh when people mention the "I can't breathe" comments he made. As though this is some proof of something sinister. He was saying this before Chauvin kneeled on him...probably because of his combination of drug(s) and overall health:

A full autopsy report on George Floyd, the man who died after being restrained by Minneapolis police last month, reveals that he was positive for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. The 20-page report also indicates that Floyd had fentanyl and methamphetamine in his system at the time of his death, although the drugs are not listed as the cause.
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https://www.npr.org/sections/live-u...eorge-floyd-had-positive-test-for-coronavirus

So, while this doesn't excuse Chauvin's actions, it paints a much clearer picture of the event.
 
Warp12 said:
I always laugh when people mention the "I can't breathe" comments he made. As though this is some proof of something sinister. He was saying this before Chauvin kneeled on him...probably because of his combination of drug(s) and overall health:


https://www.npr.org/sections/live-u...eorge-floyd-had-positive-test-for-coronavirus

So, while this doesn't excuse Chauvin's actions, it paints a much clearer picture of the event.
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While true, it is the callous indifference to Floyd literally dying while still bearing down on his neck that is the whole issue. No cop, ever, for any reason, gets to watch someone in his custody suffer and die. Whether or not Floyd self-contributed to the distress is way, way off to the side. Cops don't get executioner powers to "teach this scumbag counterfeit bill passer a lesson in obedience to The Man".
 
Thermal said:
While true, it is the callous indifference to Floyd literally dying while still bearing down on his neck that is the whole issue. No cop, ever, for any reason, gets to watch someone in his custody suffer and die. Whether or not Floyd self-contributed to the distress is way, way off to the side.
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I disagree with the highlighted. It is not as though Chauvin hunted down some random civilian and intentionally took their life. The constant denial/avoidance of Floyd's own role in his untimely death is just as harmful as excusing the cops for their role.

Is the goal to only punish the cops, or is the goal to stop more of these sorts of events from happening in the first place?
 
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Warp12 said:
I disagree with the highlighted. It is not as though Chauvin hunted down some random civilian and intentionally took their life. The constant denial/avoidance of Floyd's own role in his untimely death is just as harmful as excusing the cops for their role.
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Agreed that we have no reason to suspect murderous malice aforethought. It's only his "in the moment" actions, and lack thereof, that are at issue though.

It's not a cop's job to teach suspects some manners. It's a cops job to be above that, and be the grown up and responsible professional that we entrust them with police powers to be. That's what BLM is all about; police staying in their LEO lane and not going Dirty Harry on the populace. I don't want them to do that, to me or to Floyd or to anyone. I've had Mr Policeman draw on me several times, when I was unarmed and non threatening. These guys are getting far out of control.

Is the goal to only punish the cops, or is the goal to stop more of these sorts of events from happening in the first place?
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Both, surely. And for both, the solutions rest nearly 100% in the hands of the boys with the badges. I have been way too close to being a George Floyd to sweep the cop's behavior under the rug. Police are not soldiers in a war zone, and they need to stop expecting to be excused for acting this way when an unarmed and cuffed man dies under their knee. It really can be you or someone you care about, next time.
 
Thermal said:
Both, surely. And for both, the solutions rest nearly 100% in the hands of the boys with the badges. I have been way too close to being a George Floyd to sweep the cop's behavior under the rug. Police are not soldiers in a war zone, and they need to stop expecting to be excused for acting this way when an unarmed and cuffed man dies under their knee. It really can be you or someone you care about, next time.
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But nobody is "sweeping the behavior under the rug". Chauvin and his associates rightfully faced charges in court. But instead of also highlighting Floyd's behavior, we build statues in his honor.

So, who on that day do you think had the most control over the events that led to the death of George Floyd? Floyd or Chauvin? Floyd's death was not the result of an intentional murder; practically everything leading up to the finale was caused by intentional action on Floyd's part.
 
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Warp12 said:
But nobody is "sweeping the behavior under the rug". Chauvin and his associates rightfully faced charges in court. But instead of highlighting Floyd's behavior, we build statues in his honor.

So, who on that day do you think had the most control over the events that led to the death of George Floyd? Floyd or Chauvin? Floyd's death was not the result of an intentional murder; practically everything leading up to the finale was caused by intentional action on Floyd's part.
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But it shouldn't have been. That's the whole point. The finale rests entirely on police maintaining professionalism. They chose not to.

So internalize it a little: at what point would you tolerate police ignoring their responsibilities and going rogue? Is a little sooner acceptable? Midway? How about at the very beginning?

I agree that Floyd was problematic with the police from word go. I do not agree that police are justified in manhandling a problematic suspect at any point. That is literally all that is at issue here.

That they erect statues of Floyd is missing the point. They should be erecting statues of Chauvin behind bars in a general population shower. That might go a long way in reminding cops to mind the lines.
 
Thermal said:
That they erect statues of Floyd is missing the point. They should be erecting statues of Chauvin behind bars in a general population shower. That might go a long way in reminding cops to mind the lines.
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It certainly is a problem if we are erecting statues of a drug abusing criminal who admits to holding a gun to a pregnant woman's belly. It is not as though this guy was living his life as a beacon for reform.

This is a large part of the problem. We are focusing nearly everything on the actions of those external to the person with the greatest interest/influence in the outcome.

My general rule of thumb is to conduct my life in a way that allows me to maintain control of my destiny.

None of this is excusing the actions of the cops, mind you. But it is a more realistic look at how to solve the large-scale problem.
 
Warp12 said:
It certainly is a problem if we are erecting statues of a drug abusing criminal who admits to holding a gun to a pregnant woman's belly. It is not as though this guy was living his life as a beacon for reform.

This is a large part of the problem. We are focusing nearly everything on the actions of those external to the person with the greatest interest/influence in the outcome.

My general rule of thumb is to conduct my life in a way that allows me to maintain control of my destiny.

None of this is excusing the actions of the cops, mind you. But it is a more realistic look at how to solve the large-scale problem.
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Ok, agreed. Floyds past, sordid as it may be, has nothing to do with this at all, though. Only his actions from passing the funny money on are really at issue. Even his being lit up does not factor in the cops behavior. It's an ad hom.

Floyd was high and accused of passing a bad bill. Ok. None of that should even escalate to cuffing or arrest. So as I see it, the cops decided he was a second class citizen right out of the gate. And that's not a trivial problem on its own.

Floyd gets pissed and is uncooperative with arresting officers. Ok, he shouldn't be. But again, the professionalism of the officers needed to kick in by then. Truth be told, keeping everybody alive and safe is kind of one of their primary objectives? No?

You see Floyd as escalating because he was high and riled. Ok. I see the cops as escalating much sooner. Probably like for years, to get to the point where this kind of behavior should have even crossed their minds.

I do agree with your point that Floyd was not some angelic hero. But he was a victim of police brutality, no question. I see the Floyd statues and murals as a reminder of the faces police target, and I'm a lot closer to being like him in that situation than I am to being like a cop who watches as his pulse fades under his knee.

Is it so outlandish to hold cops to a dramatically higher standard than drug abusing criminals? I don't think it should be. Again, I've had cops go safetys off when I was on private property with permission of the owner. A sudden move on my part and I might have been a thread topic here. And I too live my life in such a way that I don't expect police to draw on me. I sympathize far more with victims of police brutality, enough to identify with Floyd more than Chauvin.
 
Thermal said:
Ok, agreed. Floyds past, sordid as it may be, has nothing to do with this at all, though. Only his actions from passing the funny money on are really at issue. Even his being lit up does not factor in the cops behavior. It's an ad hom.

Floyd was high and accused of passing a bad bill. Ok. None of that should even escalate to cuffing or arrest. So as I see it, the cops decided he was a second class citizen right out of the gate. And that's not a trivial problem on its own.

Floyd gets pissed and is uncooperative with arresting officers. Ok, he shouldn't be. But again, the professionalism of the officers needed to kick in by then. Truth be told, keeping everybody alive and safe is kind of one of their primary objectives? No?

You see Floyd as escalating because he was high and riled. Ok. I see the cops as escalating much sooner. Probably like for years, to get to the point where this kind of behavior should have even crossed their minds.

I do agree with your point that Floyd was not some angelic hero. But he was a victim of police brutality, no question. I see the Floyd statues and murals as a reminder of the faces police target, and I'm a lot closer to being like him in that situation than I am to being like a cop who watches as his pulse fades under his knee.

Is it so outlandish to hold cops to a dramatically higher standard than drug abusing criminals? I don't think it should be. Again, I've had cops go safetys off when I was on private property with permission of the owner. A sudden move on my part and I might have been a thread topic here. And I too live my life in such a way that I don't expect police to draw on me. I sympathize far more with victims of police brutality, enough to identify with Floyd more than Chauvin.
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But again, all that just brings me back to this:

Warp12 said:
So, who on that day do you think had the most control over the events that led to the death of George Floyd? Floyd or Chauvin? Floyd's death was not the result of an intentional murder; practically everything leading up to the finale was caused by intentional action on Floyd's part.
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Nothing you have said excuses Floyd for his role in this. And I don't consider him any less culpable than the officers; in fact, I consider him to be directly responsible for the situation he found himself in.

Your focus, like that of most, is almost solely on the wrongdoing of the officers. And that sort of focus will ensure that these events continue to occur.

And, as stated, I am not excusing the officers. They rightfully stood trial.
 
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Warp12 said:
But again, all that just brings me back to this:
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Which means nothing but that his behavior put him on the wrong side of the law, which has prescribed penalties that he would have to face.

At no point does his behavior lead to murder by cop. The cops actions 100% led to the fatality, full stop.

The only way your position makes sense is if you assume we should all be little bootlickers, meekly complying with police no matter what they do or say. Not in my dojo, babe.

Nothing you have said excuses Floyd for his role in this. And I don't consider him any less culpable than the officers; in fact, I consider him to be directly responsible for the situation he found himself in.
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The situation, sure. It's finale? Not remotely.

Your focus, like that of most, is almost solely on the wrongdoing of the officers.
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Jesus, yes, yes, a thousand times yes!!! That is what this is all about. Passing a bad bill should never lead to you being killed by a cop. Those dots don't connect. Being high and unruly gets you a drug charge, and maybe a brief stay in the tank.

That massive leap over to "and so it's his fault the cops killed him" does not compute.

And that sort of focus will ensure that these events continue to occur.

And, as stated, I am not excusing the officers. They rightfully stood trial.
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Saying it was Floyd's fault is absolutely excusing the officers. Even if Floyd was violently attacking people in a fenty fit of delirium, it remains 100% the cops fault that the situation went lethal. They were not high. They had a duty to remain professional. They deliberately chose not to. That is the entirety of the problem.

By your reasoning, when I have a customer ask me to check on their empty property, and police show up with guns drawn, it is my fault. It simply isn't. It is the fault of a police culture getting carried away with their own abuses of power. It doesn't matter much if the suspect is docile or not. What matters is the cops do not escalate any pretense they find to a deadly confrontation.
 
Thermal said:
By your reasoning, when I have a customer ask me to check on their empty property, and police show up with guns drawn, it is my fault.
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Maybe it is. I mean, if it happened once I would say it was a fluke and the cops overreacted. If it happened multiple times I would ask myself what part of my behavior was leading to this, and how could I adjust it so I maybe didn't get shot.

If, after experiencing this same thing many times (and not making any change to your process), you got shot...well, I wouldn't feel as sympathetic. It would have been entirely within your control to affect a different outcome.

ETA: Of course, if the cops violated protocol they should then stand trial. Just as happened with Floyd. But it would not mean you did not directly contribute to the outcome. And, you get no statue in Warptown.
 
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Warp12 said:
But again, all that just brings me back to this:




Nothing you have said excuses Floyd for his role in this. And I don't consider him any less culpable than the officers; in fact, I consider him to be directly responsible for the situation he found himself in.

Your focus, like that of most, is almost solely on the wrongdoing of the officers. And that sort of focus will ensure that these events continue to occur.

And, as stated, I am not excusing the officers. They rightfully stood trial.
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I think you're missing an essential element here. It is undoubtedly true tha Floyd was not a very good guy, and that his misbehavior, in a sense, started the event. But if the event in question is a gross crime it is irrelevant. Imagine if a passenger on a plane behaves in an un-allowable manner. All that happens thereafter can, in one sense, be attributed to his bad behavior, but if the response is to throw him out of the plane, it's really not an issue. When you murder a person, the thing that started it loses its relevance.
 
Warp12 said:
Maybe it is. I mean, if it happened once I would say it was a fluke and the cops overreacted. If it happened multiple times I would ask myself what part of my behavior was leading to this, and how could I adjust it so I maybe didn't get shot.

If, after experiencing this same thing many times (and not making any change to your process), you got shot...well, I wouldn't feel as sympathetic. It would have been entirely within your control to affect a different outcome.
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All right. Hear me out on one of the typical calls:

I'm a construction contractor. I get calls all year long from people with Smart home systems notiying me that something is wrong on the property (Nest thermostats reporting no heat in a summer home/rental unit is the most common call).

I go to the site with my phone, in my lettered up truck, which I park in plain sight in front of the house. I let myself in with the key or, more often, keyless code. Some busybody neighbor calls police about some guy in an empty house at night. Cops arrive, parked around the corner with lights off and come on the property with sidearms drawn.

I am a sudden wrong move away from being a statistic. What did I do wrong?

Btw, it usually doesn't happen this way. Police normally pull up behind my van with lights on while they run my tags. I turn on outside lights and stroll out to explain. No drama.

But a certain subset of cops just want to get violent if given the flimsiest of opportunities. I run across one every couple years. Floyd ran across one. Others have too. Too ******* many. That's what this is all about: the actions of the cops.
 
Thermal said:
All right. Hear me out on one of the typical calls:

I'm a construction contractor. I get calls all year long from people with Smart home systems notiying me that something is wrong on the property (Nest thermostats reporting no heat in a summer home/rental unit is the most common call).

I go to the site with my phone, in my lettered up truck, which I park in plain sight in front of the house. I let myself in with the key or, more often, keyless code. Some busybody neighbor calls police about some guy in an empty house at night. Cops arrive, parked around the corner with lights off and come on the property with sidearms drawn.

I am a sudden wrong move away from being a statistic. What did I do wrong?

Btw, it usually doesn't happen this way. Police normally pull up behind my van with lights on while they run my tags. I turn on outside lights and stroll out to explain. No drama.

But a certain subset of cops just want to get violent if given the flimsiest of opportunities. I run across one every couple years. Floyd ran across one. Others have too. Too ******* many. That's what this is all about: the actions of the cops.
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I just don't think we are going to agree on this.

Because, I am not saying cops should not be held accountable for improper action. I am saying that their improper action does not excuse the improper actions of those impacted. And I am saying that the most responsibility for avoiding becoming a statistic often comes down to the affected individual.

If I am driving through town at 100 mph, and a cop runs a stop sign killing me, nobody should be erecting a statue in honor of me or making me out as a martyr.
 
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Warp12 said:
I just don't think we are going to agree on this.

Because, I am not saying cops should not be held accountable for improper action. I am saying that their improper action does not excuse the improper actions of those impacted. And I am saying that the most responsibility for avoiding becoming a statistic often comes down to the affected individual.
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Agreed. Putting yourself in a bad situation is largely your own fault.

But a bad situation turning needlessly deadly is not. That's all on the cops.

If I am driving through town at 100 mph, and a cop runs a stop sign killing me, nobody should be erecting a statue in honor of me or making me out as a martyr.
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Come on, man. Passing a funny bill is not remotely comparable to ripping through town at 100mph, and running a stop sign isn't in the same universe as squeezing someone's life out while their pulse disappears.

Eta: you didn't answer what I did wrong to justify guns drawn on me. There are plus or minus two choices:

- police are justified in approaching a non-threatening contractor with guns drawn.

-not to get all Cool Hand Luke, but some cops you just can't reach. So you get what we had there in Minneapolis.

Either way, it ain't on me. It is 100% the cops who took a vague report and approached my white ass just a squeeze away from lethal results.
 
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I keep hearing that George Floyd was this thing and that thing; a petty criminal, a drug addict, was doped up on fentanyl, once pointed a gun at a pregnant woman, committed theft, trespass, caught in possession of drugs, and that he was positive for SARS-CoV-2 - but I can't for the life of me find ANY state in the USA in which any of the above carries the death penalty.

George Floyd's drug status and health condition were irrelevant - they were not the cause of his death - being choked for eight minutes & 46 seconds by Derek Chauvin is what killed him - this was testified to, in court, by the prosecution's forensic pathologist, and the jury found him guilty.

What Derek Chauvin did is straightforward - he used a restraint technique that he KNEW was against his own Police Department's policy, and carried out the extrajudicial execution of George Floyd. He KNEW that what he was doing was putting Floyd's life in danger... but he carried on doing it anyway.

I hope the judge in his Federal trial gives him 25 years!
 
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smartcooky said:
I keep hearing that George Floyd was this thing and that thing; a petty criminal, a drug addict, was doped up on fentanyl, once pointed a gun at a pregnant woman, committed theft, trespass, caught in possession of drugs, and that he was positive for SARS-CoV-2 - but I can't for the life of me find ANY state in the USA in which any of the above carries the death penalty.
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I guess you're right. And since his untimely death had nothing to do with his own actions, I encourage many more to follow in his footsteps on such a path of righteousness. This will hopefully expose more of the Chauvin-types, so that they too may be brought to justice.

Everyone wins. :thumbsup:
 
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Warp12 said:
I guess you're right. And since his untimely death had nothing to with his own actions, I encourage many more to follow in his footsteps on such a path of righteousness. This will hopefully expose more of the Chauvin-types, so that they too may be brought to justice.

Everyone wins. :thumbsup:
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There are no words to describe how stupid the above is.

Cops have a duty to serve and protect the public, and regardless of how bad of a man Floyd was, he was a member of the public - Derek Chauvin failed in his duty to protect him.
 
smartcooky said:
Cops have a duty to serve and protect the public, and regardless of how bad of a man Floyd was, he was a member of the public - Derek Chauvin failed in his duty to protect him.
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They sure do have such a duty. And that's why Chauvin is in jail.

But that isn't bringing Floyd back from the dead, and he is the one who had the most control of his fate. George Floyd failed himself. And his sentence for that failure was death. So, it's an important point when we sit around the campfire and share the story.

If we really care about eliminating events such as this, that is.
 
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Warp12 said:
... George Floyd failed himself. And his sentence for that failure was death. So, it's an important point when we sit around the campfire and share the story....
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What sentence? Explain the off-the-record justice system you imply is at work, and then explain how it is you speak for it. As for campfires, not safe places to gather, not anymore. Why, you can't even have a 4th July parade, not with parallel spooky justice systems creeping around in the minds of, well, boys with toys. Let's hear yours, and maybe get a statement of what weapons you keep and what you plan to do with them. Might be time for some preventive doxxing to the appropriate authorities.
 
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Personally I think what the police did was far more harmful than anything Floyd did to get himself into trouble. When police abuse their authority and the public trust, the damage runs deep--well beyond the fate of the one man. It reduces trust in the institution, creates even more fertile grounds for conflict between police and those they are supposedly protecting, which may well lead to another incident. It damages society in a far greater way than Floyd's petty crimes did. More blood is on Chauvin's hands than just Floyd's own.
 
Warp12 said:
They sure do have such a duty. And that's why Chauvin is in jail.

But that isn't bringing Floyd back from the dead, and he is the one who had the most control of his fate. George Floyd failed himself. And his sentence for that failure was death. So, it's an important point when we sit around the campfire and share the story.

If we really care about eliminating events such as this, that is.
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Boy are you on a roll. Young black men are to blame for being murdered by cops, women are to blame for not preventing unwanted pregnancies and liberals are to blame for the current tyranny by the extremist right wing white Christians.

Police have an obligation not to murder young black men for minor crimes. IT'S THEIR JOB!
 
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gnome said:
Personally I think what the police did was far more harmful than anything Floyd did to get himself into trouble. When police abuse their authority and the public trust, the damage runs deep--well beyond the fate of the one man. It reduces trust in the institution, creates even more fertile grounds for conflict between police and those they are supposedly protecting, which may well lead to another incident. It damages society in a far greater way than Floyd's petty crimes did. More blood is on Chauvin's hands than just Floyd's own.
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Indeed.

When police abuse their authority, it directly impacts on the public's trust in them. You only have to look at what has happened with elections in the US to see what happens when people in authority abuse their power - all trust is lost in the process.
 
gnome said:
Personally I think what the police did was far more harmful than anything Floyd did to get himself into trouble.
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Remember, this incident was solely about the alleged counterfeit $20 bill.

Now, is there any evidence that he knowingly passed along a counterfeit $20 bill? Heck, it even took the cashier time to figure it out, and she is supposed to be doing that.

None of any of this "he was a bad guy, he aimed a gun at a woman, he murdered the pope" crap has anything to do with this situation. The police were on him for passing a counterfeit bill, and we don't even know that he did it intentionally. For that, it was ok for him to be killed, because that's the penalty for unwittingly passing along a counterfeit bill.

The dumb thing is, if he had just left the convenience store, none of this would have happened. But because he didn't flee the scene (so wait - he passes a counterfeit bill and then hangs out in front of the store? An indication that he was not aware he had done anything wrong), he gets killed. Talk about senseless.
 
The officer most directly involved in his death, Chauvin, committed nearly 38,000 dollars in income tax fraud so he was, by this logic, roughly 1,900 times more worthy of being brazenly murdered in the street in broad daylight than Floyd.

But what crimes make black lives forfeit versus what crimes make white lives forfeit seem to vary a lot amongst the racists.
 
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Warp12 said:
I guess you're right. And since his untimely death had nothing to do with his own actions, I encourage many more to follow in his footsteps on such a path of righteousness. This will hopefully expose more of the Chauvin-types, so that they too may be brought to justice.

Everyone wins. :thumbsup:
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I really think you have missed a fundamental point here. We can always, in hindsight, find a way that some unfortunate event would never have happened. And yeah, Floyd made a bunch of mistakes. But when a consequence of something escalates from the reasonable to the unreasonable, it's not just a question of balance, but of ontological relevancy. We can always trace back to responsibility, but if a crime is a crime, nobody but the perpetrator is responsible for it, no matter what the victim did wrong. If it had been justifiable, or a mistake, it would not be a crime. That's what makes a crime a crime.
 
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