The Creation of Israel Violated the Palestinian Right to Self-Determination

ahhell said:
I sympathize with anyone fleeing persecution, I also sympathize with folks that are displaced by such migration.

This is not the Fault of the Jews or Israelis. This is the fault of the numerous countries the fled and England's mishandling of the mandate and transition.

Should we sympathize with Armenians after the Genocide, yes, should we have allowed them to settle somewhere out of control of the Turks, yes. Should we have allowed them to create an ethnostate somewhere where other people already existed, probably not. If they had done that, should we now decide they don't deserve a state anymore, probably not.

But, this is basically a useless question. Israel exists, so "what now?" is the only question that matters.
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You got Seven Million Jews in Israel, they don't want to migrate anywhere else.
It is a mess. I maintian the dumbest thing Israel every did was the settlement program.
 
Temporarily under heavy work load with the end of vacation but doing background preparation for summary statements on issues, leading to final recommendations seeming to fir best. Readers will be provided with text links when possible, but much will be as earlier, as YT links, but fewer videos with many text references in them. Meanwhile, humor.
 

Civil and religious rights of non-Jewish communities in Palestine​


"If, however, the strict terms of the Balfour Statement are adhered to ... it can hardly be doubted that the extreme Zionist Program must be greatly modified. For "a national home for the Jewish people" is not equivalent to making Palestine into a Jewish State; nor can the erection of such a Jewish State be accomplished without the gravest trespass upon the "civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." The fact came out repeatedly in the Commission's conference with Jewish representatives, that the Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, by various forms of purchase." Report of the King–Crane Commission, August 1919

The declaration's first safeguard clause referred to protecting the civil and religious rights of non-Jews in Palestine. The clause had been drafted together with the second safeguard by Leo Amery in consultation with Lord Milner, with the intention to "go a reasonable distance to meeting the objectors, both Jewish and pro-Arab, without impairing the substance of the proposed declaration".

Arabs constituted around 90% of the population of Palestine, but – as stated by Ronald Storrs, Britain's Military Governor of Jerusalem between 1917 and 1920 – they were "not so much [named but] lumped together under the negative and humiliating definition of 'Non-Jewish Communities'". Additionally, there was no reference to protecting the political rights of this group, as there was regarding Jews in other countries. This lack of interest was frequently contrasted against the commitment to the Jewish community, with various terms used over subsequent years to regard the two obligations as linked. A heated question was whether the status of both groups had "equal weight", which the British government and the Permanent Mandates Commission held to be the case in the 1930 Passfield white paper.

Balfour stated in February 1919 that Palestine was considered an exceptional case in which, referring to the local population, "we deliberately and rightly decline to accept the principle of self-determination," although he considered that the policy provided self-determination to Jews. Avi Shlaim considers this the declaration's "greatest contradiction". This principle of self-determination had been declared on numerous occasions subsequent to the declaration – President Wilson's January 1918 Fourteen Points, McMahon's Declaration to the Seven in June 1918, the November 1918 Anglo-French Declaration, and the June 1919 Covenant of the League of Nations that had established the mandate system. In an August 1919 memo Balfour acknowledged the inconsistency among these statements, and further explained that the British had no intention of consulting the existing population of Palestine. The results of the ongoing American King–Crane Commission of Enquiry consultation of the local population – from which the British had withdrawn – were suppressed for three years until the report was leaked in 1922. Subsequent British governments have acknowledged this deficiency, in particular the 1939 committee led by the Lord Chancellor, Frederic Maugham, which concluded that the government had not been "free to dispose of Palestine without regard for the wishes and interests of the inhabitants of Palestine", and the April 2017 statement by British Foreign Office minister of state Baroness Anelay that the government acknowledged that "the Declaration should have called for the protection of political rights of the non-Jewish communities in Palestine, particularly their right to self-determination."
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- Wiki entry on the Balfour Declaration
Time period: Post WWI
Status: Palestine was 90% indigenous Arab. Not Jewish, Arab Palestinian. See also map of Palestine from 1881 posted in the Hamas thread.

(Were Czechoslovakians merely "Europeans" with no identity when Hitler invaded? No. Neither, then, can such an excuse be used to deny local inhabitants anywhere the right to self-determination. "Not Palestinians, only Arabs" is a profoundly ignorant statement afoul of history and law.)

It is undeniable that:
  • there was no incipient Jewish state existing at the time
  • thus, no Israeli nation with "a right to exist"
  • and no indigenous Jewish population with any legal right to self-determination
  • just a colonial enterprise in the works
  • backed by an occupying colonial power
  • acting outside its mandate
These facts are easily ignored in the active threads on the war in Gaza, which bloviate in endless fancy-free ignorance.

As for ISF, we see it is clearly part of the cabal of Western media seeking to suppress and deny free speech, as this, being the only thread that has consistently sought out and highlighted factual information on the Gaza conflict and the history of the region, is the only one moderated. The other threads that are or have been discussing the same topic are rife with historical falsehoods and bigotry, eschewing all fact by relying on denialism and see-no-evil monkey business, peppered with incessant claims that any factual information presented is "antisemitic".

My, my, my, such pretense. Typically, the above shall be ignored or frontally denied, never taken up in good faith. Understandable; Zionists have no solid ground to stand on.
 
lionking said:
Boring. None of this shambolic rambling will change the status quo in Israel.
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Nope. The Ultra Orthodox Kookites are doing that by their demands for ever greater Lebensraum combined with their demands to be supported by others, and their tolerance of political corruption when it suits them.
Hence the migration of the elite out of Israel.
 
No doubt some of the more rabid of supporters of Israel will claim that the refusal of Palestinians to leave the Gaza Strip is the result of Antisemitism.

Of course aside from the desire not to leave their homes one of the motives is that if they leave they will not be allowed back. After all look what happened in 1947-1948 in Palestine.

And that is a reasonable belief given many in Israel want to Ethnically cleanse out the Palestinians and this of course could be a trial run for Ethnically cleansing the West Bank. After all Palestinians a confined to a disjointed set of very crowded enclaves that are economically unsustainable so they could be offered to be helped to "voluntarily" go elsewhere.
 
The Tablet. Palestine was a misshapen idea from the beginning, engendered by an act of pure negation. The Arabs could have gone along with the U.N.’s partition plan like the Jews did, and chosen to build whatever version of Switzerland or Belgium on the eastern Med in 1948. Instead, they resoundingly chose war. That’s the storied “Nakba” at the core of the Palestinian legend—the catastrophe that drove the Arabs from their land and hung a key around the neck of a nation waiting to go home. The Arabs chose the catastrophe; they chose war, based on the premise that they would inevitably win and exterminate the Jews.
Yet despite repeated military failures, and the increasing distance between the first-world powerhouse that the Israelis built and their increasingly war-torn, third-world neighborhood, the global conscience was always predisposed to rebuilding what the Palestinians destroyed. Accordingly, the Palestinian Arabs became a tribe of feral children whose identity was carved out of the relentless vow to eliminate Israel and slaughter the Jews en masse—despite repeated failures, each one more crushing than the last.
Trump said, enough, we’re not rebuilding Gaza. Time for a new idea—the Gazans have to to go, they can try to start again somewhere else, in a land where every building still standing isn’t already wired to explode.
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This little screed, served up by a source oft listed by Google News, is representative of the rotten lies told by Zionists since forever. Lies that had me in the past admittedly thinking of Israelis as the permanent victims of the malice of others. It is time to put this propaganda in its place on a heap of rubbish.

Here is just a smattering of events from the historical timeline, a list of Zionist attacks leading to the Nakba:
  • Haifa 1937
  • Jerusalem 1937
  • Haifa 1938
  • Balad al-Sheikh 1939
  • Haifa 1939
  • Haifa 1947
  • Abbasiya 1947
  • Al-Khisas 1947
  • Bab al-Amud 1947
  • Jerusalem 1947
  • Sheikh Bureik 1947
  • Jaffa 1948
  • Deir Yassin 1948
Palestinian suffering is hardly self-inflicted. Palestinians, as a people, had every right to determine their own future and frontally reject the British Empire's imposition of an invasive occupier fully intended to replace them. Americans supporting Trump should agree, had they half a spine, as their bloviating worries over their southern border fall fully in line with the Palestinian desire not to be occupied and replaced (not that this is what US immigrants are actually doing).

Israelis apparently agree that Palestinian claims are lawful, as they do everything they can to destroy any records of Palestinian life prior to the imposition of a Jewish-only theocracy. When in the wrong, lie, distort and destroy. This is racist, land-thieving Zionism, genocidal by design and intent.
 
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Hlafordlaes said:
This little screed, served up by a source oft listed by Google News, is representative of the rotten lies told by Zionists since forever. Lies that had me in the past admittedly thinking of Israelis as the permanent victims of the malice of others. It is time to put this propaganda in its place on a heap of rubbish.

Here is just a smattering of events from the historical timeline, a list of Zionist attacks leading to the Nakba:
  • Haifa 1937
  • Jerusalem 1937
  • Haifa 1938
  • Balad al-Sheikh 1939
  • Haifa 1939
  • Haifa 1947
  • Abbasiya 1947
  • Al-Khisas 1947
  • Bab al-Amud 1947
  • Jerusalem 1947
  • Sheikh Bureik 1947
  • Jaffa 1948
  • Deir Yassin 1948
Palestinian suffering is hardly self-inflicted. Palestinians, as a people, had every right to determine their own future and frontally reject the British Empire's imposition of an invasive occupier fully intended to replace them. Americans supporting Trump should agree, had they half a spine, as their bloviating worries over their southern border fall fully in line with the Palestinian desire not to be occupied and replaced (not that this is what US immigrants are actually doing).

Israelis apparently agree that Palestinian claims are lawful, as they do everything they can to destroy any records of Palestinian life prior to the imposition of a Jewish-only theocracy. When in the wrong, lie, distort and destroy. This is racist, land-thieving Zionism, genocidal by design and intent.
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Both sides lie and commit deceit.

The Israelis lie about Palestinian history, the Muslims lie about Jewish history. Many Muslims refuse to accept that the Jewish temple used to exist on the Temple Mount, that a majority of Israeli Jews have non-Ashkenazi ancestry, that Jews continued to live in Palestine for thousands of years, that the majority of Jerusalem was Jewish by the 1880s, etc etc. Both sides lie, a pox on both of their houses.

But right now, today, it is Israel who is seeking to commit massive racist ethnic cleansing. A new Nakba of 2 million Palestinians. I wonder how Israelis and Jews will be viewed around the world if this takes place? Massive harrassment and hate speech? Probably. Attacks on synagogues and embassies? Possible. All Israeli tourists treated like garbage? Likely.

Economic and diplomatic boycotts of Israel? Hopefully.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
2 millions Palestinians in Gaza didn't want to be displaced, either.
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The 8 million Israeli Jews dont want to be displaced, the 2 million Arabs in Gaza dont want to be displaced.

But somehow its anti-semitic Nazism to talk about the Jews going elsewhere, but totally acceptable to talk about literally destroying all of Gaza and sending the 2 million Arabs to another country, permanently.

How did this racist double standard come about?
 
webfusion said:
Israelis are quite glad that we're clearing up that nasty mess in Aisle 8.

As for the topic of this thread -- MEH.
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lionking said:
Comparing Israel defending itself against a terrorist attack with the holocaust is disgraceful.
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You boys would be hilarious if not for the fact that there is indeed a genocide taking place.

BTW, you still haven't disputed that the IDF are picture-taking, video-enjoying buffux. You cannot, because for that, we have evidence. As we do of Israeli officials arguing in public that "anything goes" against Hamas, and that all Palestinians are Hamas (1+1=2; namely, a policy of genocide, sorry). And in this and other threads, we have their fangirls arguing that opposition to state policy, to war crimes on record, and to the ongoing mass starvation of Gazans is "support for Hamas".

Spoken like true Gestapo. Want me to start quoting from early Zionists? From accounts of their relations with the Nazis? Hmmm? No, you don't, as you would quite simply not be able to man up to the task of addressing the points made, as evidenced repeatedly in several threads.

Meanwhile, any apologies or retractions of the outright lies used to engender a disproportionate response to Oct 7? I won't repeat them, as they are heinous, as is the fact that your accusations regarding that day are both false of Hamas and true of the IDF. On record, boys, on record.

Who's your daddy? :unsure: Manhood is usually taught by example during childhood. Sorry you missed out. :cry1
 
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Hlafordlaes said:
You boys would be hilarious if not for the fact that there is indeed a genocide taking place.

BTW, you still haven't disputed that the IDF are picture-taking, video-enjoying buffux. You cannot, because for that, we have evidence. As we do of Israeli officials arguing in public that "anything goes" against Hamas, and that all Palestinians are Hamas (1+1=2; namely, a policy of genocide, sorry). And in this and other threads, we have their fangirls arguing that opposition to state policy, to war crimes on record, and to the ongoing mass starvation of Gazans is "support for Hamas".

Spoken like true Gestapo. Want me to start quoting from early Zionists? From accounts of their relations with the Nazis? Hmmm? No, you don't, as you would quite simply not be able to man up to the task of addressing the points made, as evidenced repeatedly in several threads.

Meanwhile, any apologies or retractions of the outright lies used to engender a disproportionate response to Oct 7? I won't repeat them, as they are heinous, as is the fact that your accusations regarding that day are both false of Hamas and true of the IDF. On record, boys, on record.

Who's your daddy? :unsure: Manhood is usually taught by example during childhood. Sorry you missed out. :cry1
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What has been happening in the (ever shrinking) West Bank and Gaza is nothing short of holocaust, at the moment on the level of Nikolayev rather than Auschwitz-Birkenau (though that will come if they're let).
 
In the past I would have objected to use of the term "Holocaust" to describe what is going on in Palestine as a gross and offensive exaggeration.

But now? Considering what has happened in Gaza and the very repeated and open desire to literally demolish the entire territory and kick all the Arabs out? I can no longer be on the side of those who seek to justify and defend the indefensible.
 
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Hercules56 said:
All the articles say nothing about your anti-semitic baseless claim.
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Um,
In an extraordinarily blunt final segment of the news magazine show, Pelley revealed that CBS’ parent company Paramount “began to supervise our content in new ways” as it tries to complete a merger with Skydance Media, with Pelley adding that Owens “felt he had lost the independence that honest journalism requires.”...

Pelley said that topics the show has pursued in its roughly 60-year history are “often controversial,” noting recent stories have included Israel’s war with Hamas in Gaza and the Trump administration.
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‘60 Minutes’ Chief Resigns in Emotional Meeting: ‘The Company Is Done With Me’
Paramount’s controlling shareholder, Shari Redstone, is eager to secure the Trump administration’s approval for a multibillion-dollar sale of her company to Skydance, a company run by the son of the tech billionaire Larry Ellison...

Mr. Owens’s relationship with executives at CBS and Paramount frayed in recent months... Ms. Redstone complained to CBS executives in January about a “60 Minutes” segment on the war between Israel and Hamas, and a day later, the company appointed a veteran CBS producer, Susan Zirinsky, to a new role overseeing the news division’s journalistic standards.
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AIPAC is not mentioned directly, but...

US election: How AIPAC shapes American politics
When it comes to fundraising, AIPAC mainly relies on a handful of super-wealthy billionaire donors, who under the American political system, are able to influence elections dramatically, Hixson explained...

“AIPAC is more closely affiliated with the Republican Party, especially Trump, because he simply gives Israel everything it wants, no questions asked,” he said. “They have leaned toward the Republicans more and more, but officially AIPAC is very careful to always point out they are nonpartisan and will support any candidate that’s pro-Israel … But there’s no question they would prefer Trump to win.”

“The most important thing to understand about AIPAC is that it essentially controls the US Congress...“They (AIPAC) will target any and all candidates who are critical of Israeli policy or in any way pro-Palestinian."

AIPAC has a “winning” percentage of roughly 90%, according to Hixson
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AIPAC helped get Trump elected, therefore they are indirectly responsible for Bill Owens' decision to resign. I bet they are mighty pleased with this outcome that they had a hand in.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
...AIPAC helped get Trump elected, therefore they are indirectly responsible for Bill Owens' decision to resign. I bet they are mighty pleased with this outcome that they had a hand in.
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The logical flaws in this statement are immense.
 
This video includes interesting images of Palestine prior to its invasion by forced mass immigration in the 1930s and 40s under an occupying imperial power, giving the lie to claims to that Palestine never existed. It also includes other interesting factual information, and concludes with examples of Jews denouncing Zionism, the movement responsible for the creation of the state of Israel using brutal terrorism. Worth watching as part of general background gathering if the reader has not had the occasion to look at other, longer sources. History is important. If "remember October 7" is important or relevant to events in Gaza, that can only be as part of a look at all of history. History shows that the creation of the state of Israel violated the right to self-determination of the legitimate, indigenous inhabitants of Palestine.
 
Hercules56 said:
The logical flaws in this statement are immense.
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This thread was started to examine the real background of events and to portray them in a more honest light, characterizing events in their fullest historical context, and not a truncated, partial, Zionist narrative. The thread was moderated early on due to bickering and off-topic responses. During that time, any contributions toward the goal for which the thread was started were simply ignored by those debating in a non-factual manner in other, loosely supported threads. Now, the most active thread is under moderation for bickering.

I'd appreciate it if you would kindly put up or cease to post irrelevant, unsupported "zingers" in this thread, and instead dedicate your energies to the existing thread for those not able to address the points and/or conduct honest debate. If you wish to continue, please state a thesis and develop your points as befits honest debate.

There is a genocide in progress. A genocide. That fits into a broader picture of a changing geopolitical landscape shaped by wealth and power, not by the rule of law. The two go hand-in-hand, as the AI images Trump re-posted of himself on a glitzy Gaza beach with Netanyahu show. This is a time to be serious, as not only are the innocent dying, but their fate may very well be prelude. Make a stand, take a stand, and skip the banana peels.
 
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Hlafordlaes said:
This video includes interesting images of Palestine prior to its invasion by forced mass immigration in the 1930s and 40s under an occupying imperial power, giving the lie to claims to that Palestine never existed. It also includes other interesting factual information, and concludes with examples of Jews denouncing Zionism, the movement responsible for the creation of the state of Israel using brutal terrorism. Worth watching as part of general background gathering if the reader has not had the occasion to look at other, longer sources. History is important. If "remember October 7" is important or relevant to events in Gaza, that can only be as part of a look at all of history. History shows that the creation of the state of Israel violated the right to self-determination of the legitimate, indigenous inhabitants of Palestine.
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Palestine, as an independent, unique country, indeed never existed.
 
A well written article on the policy of rendering Gaza uninhabitable by the deliberate destruction of infrastructure and buildings. It is cheaper to flatten Gaza by bulldozer and demolition charges than by bombs. The policy has also been applied in southern Lebanon, and is being applied in the West bank. The object is ethnic cleansing.

www.972mag.com

‘Render it unusable’: Israel’s mission of total urban destruction

Bulldozers and explosives are flattening Gaza from the ground — what soldiers say is a systematic campaign to make the Strip unlivable.
www.972mag.com www.972mag.com
 
I saw soldiers on the street near where I live, and then I saw Majed come out and walk toward his grandfather’s and uncles’ house, which is in the same area. There was another person with him, and when they came out of the alley, they came across soldiers who were about 30 meters away, or maybe even less. Then, one of the soldiers fired a shot at them, and I think a fragment hit the guy who was with Majed. He ran back and disappeared.

One of the soldiers ordered Majed to stop in clear Arabic. Majed stopped where he was, about 25-30 meters from the soldiers. The Arabic-speaking soldier gestured for him to approach. When Majed was about 10 meters away, the soldier shot him in the leg, and he fell. The soldier went up to Majed, who was injured, and asked him more than three times, “Where is the gun? Where is the gun?” Majed kept answering, “I don’t know. I don’t have a gun.” The soldier asked where he had been going, and Majed said, “To my grandfather’s house.” The soldier accused him of lying and asked about the person who was with him.

The soldier then ordered Majed to undress, but Majed couldn’t remove his pants and told the soldier he couldn’t. The soldier replied, “Then I’ll shoot you.” Majed begged him not to shoot and managed to take off his shirt in the meantime. I heard another soldier telling the Arabic-speaking one, “Don’t shoot him, he’s just a kid.” But the Arabic-speaking soldier said, in Hebrew and Arabic, “He’s a terrorist,” and shot Majed once in the neck. Then, everything went silent.

I saw an ambulance coming, and the paramedics shouted to the soldiers in Hebrew, asking them to let them go to Majed and give him first aid. The soldiers didn’t let them near. I think one soldier even fired a shot in the air to scare them away.

Majed lay there for about half an hour. Then, a large bulldozer came and drove right up to his body. The driver tried to scoop Majed up for over seven minutes. He kept catching him by the pants, and then he would fall, until finally, his pants came off, and he was left naked. The bulldozer pushed the body against a wall to lift it. When it finally managed to lift him, half of Majed’s body was hanging outside the bucket, head down. It carried him about 50 meters, towards a fence, and then he fell again. The bulldozer picked him up again and drove to the wall. Majed’s head was between the bulldozer’s bucket and the wall when the bulldozer got close to the wall. It was a horrifying sight — a crime I’d never seen before. The body fell again, and the bulldozer picked it up, and pieces of concrete fell on it. Then the bulldozer drove through the camp neighborhoods with the body, followed by a military jeep. I think it was meant to scare people.

In the morning, after the military left the camp, I heard they dumped Majed’s body near a gas station, at least two kilometers from where he was killed.
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That same day, an exchange of fire broke out in another part of the camp between Israeli forces and armed Palestinians. The military killed Yazan ‘Abdu (31), an al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade operative, injured several others, and arrested some of them. The soldiers tied one of the wounded detainees, Dhaher Raddad (19), a Hamas military wing operative, to the hood of a military vehicle, which drove through the camp, using him as a human shield. Raddad died of his wounds in an Israeli hospital, in Israel Prison Service custody, about two days later.
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Not the first time we have heard a report of Palestinians being tied to the front of IDF vehicles to act as human shields. It is also a mechanism of torture as the victims are left with burns on their back.

These are events in the occupied West Bank not in Gaza. Detainees are murdered, tortured, their bodies desecrated, displayed as trophies? Deterrents? This is how the most moral army in the world behaves when it is 'policing' the West Bank. Imagine how it behaves in Gaza where there is even less restraint.
 
Far-right Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich yesterday called for the destruction of Bruqin and Kafr Ad-Dik near Salfit in the northern occupied West Bank, similar to the genocide in the Gaza Strip.

In a post on the X platform, Smotrich said, “Just as we destroyed the cities of Rafah, Khan Yunis, and Gaza in the Gaza Strip, we must destroy the dens of terror in Judea and Samaria” referring to the West Bank

At least 967 Palestinians have been killed and over 7,000 injured in attacks by the Israeli occupation army and illegal settlers in the occupied West Bank since the start of the war on Gaza in October 2023, according to official Palestinian figures.

In July 2024, the International Court of Justice declared Israel’s decades-long occupation of Palestinian land illegal and demanded the evacuation of all settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
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Israeli settlers torch 15 Palestinian vehicles in occupied West Bank – Middle East Monitor

www.middleeastmonitor.com www.middleeastmonitor.com

The Israeli government is proud that it is deliberately destroying cities.
 
Nice overview of the bad science around the Moses and Exodus myths. Apart from its patent falsehood as mythology, the total lack of historicity undermines all claims to a "promised land" upon which the idea of "Greater Israel" is founded, the basis for the violent, terror-prone Zionist invasion of Palestine. First myth, now simply malicious lies in service of brutal bloodshed. That's all there is, all there ever was.
 
Hlafordlaes said:
Nice overview of the bad science around the Moses and Exodus myths. Apart from its patent falsehood as mythology, the total lack of historicity undermines all claims to a "promised land" upon which the idea of "Greater Israel" is founded, the basis for the violent, terror-prone Zionist invasion of Palestine. First myth, now simply malicious lies in service of brutal bloodshed. That's all there is, all there ever was.
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Can't argue with that, I mean the historical consensus that that Jews developed out of the local Levantine population instead of being an invading force from Egypt gives them much less historical claim.
 
ahhell said:
Can't argue with that, I mean the historical consensus that that Jews developed out of the local Levantine population instead of being an invading force from Egypt gives them much less historical claim.
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Well, it is a fact that the Jews had a country in the land for almost a thousand years, and then again starting around 300 BC until the Romans destroyed it in 135 AD. The Jews remained the majority population for several hundred years after. So for a very long time, the Jews were the natives of the land.
 
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Hercules56 said:
Well, it is a fact that the Jews had a country in the land for almost a thousand years, and then again starting around 300 BC until the Romans destroyed it in 135 AD. The Jews remained the majority population for several hundred years after. So for a very long time, the Jews were the natives of the land.
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For a time. Then they were not. Millennia passed. Too late; by 1900, neither resident nor native nor indigenous. Zero grounds to make any claims of any kind.
 
Hlafordlaes said:
For a time. Then they were not. Millennia passed. Too late; by 1900, neither resident nor native nor indigenous. Zero grounds to make any claims of any kind.
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I think its fair to claim that the Hebrew language, Jewish religion, the Torah and the Palestinian Talmud are indigenous to the land. Jerusalem obviously used to be a jewish city. As were many other cities in the land. There is no honest question as to whether the land used to be ancient Judea and Israel, the only issue is are the modern day people to be considered native & indigenous simply due to their jewish heritage. And obviously the answer is no. Most Jews do have some ancestry that comes from the general region, but those ancestors may have left and moved on 1,500 years ago or even earlier. The question is not if individual Jews have an individual right to be in the area, but if the Jews as a collective people have a collective right to rebuild their ancient nation there.

Its also worth mentioning that if Palestine had a very small or non-existent population when the Jews started to return in the late 1800s nobody would really question this right or its historical validity as it affected basically nobody else. Its because Zionism affected soo many other people who lived in Palestine that it is questioned.

If the Jews only chose to return to the basically uninhabited Negev dessert and make a country just there, nobody would care either, and people would say "yeah, sure, the jews have returned".
 
Hlafordlaes said:
No. Not the meaning of "indigenous". "Judaism is original to the region," more like it. As Ra is original to Egypt.
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Disagree. Judaism developed in Judea/Israel. They built their holy temple in Jerusalem where they believe Abraham made his sacrifice to God. Muslims accept this claim and the Dome of the Rock is centered over the Holy of Holies where Abraham did his thing. The Jewish prophets are buried all over the land, especially in Hebron where the last remaining Herodian structure remains basically intact.
 
Hercules56 said:
Disagree. Judaism developed in Judea/Israel. They built their holy temple in Jerusalem where they believe Abraham made his sacrifice to God. Muslims accept this claim and the Dome of the Rock is centered over the Holy of Holies where Abraham did his thing. The Jewish prophets are buried all over the land, especially in Hebron where the last remaining Herodian structure remains basically intact.
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I'm going to be very annoying. I'm like 85% certain, the Samaritans are actually correct, the original temple was probably Mount Gerizim and not the temple mount. Jews are all a bunch of splitters.

ETA: And honestly, the only reason a responded to Hlafordlaes is because his post was basically an attempt to respond to an appeal to God with an Appeal to history. You know, appeal to non-existent authority with another appeal to authority.
 
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ahhell said:
I'm going to be very annoying. I'm like 85% certain, the Samaritans are actually correct, the original temple was probably Mount Gerizim and not the temple mount. Jews are all a bunch of splitters.

ETA: And honestly, the only reason a responded to Hlafordlaes is because his post was basically an attempt to respond to an appeal to God with an Appeal to history. You know, appeal to non-existent authority with another appeal to authority.
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Mt Gerizim? Such a claim is so stupid it's almost not worth responding to.



The amount of historical evidence that points to the Temple mount in Jerusalem, is so overwhelming that it is ignorant absurdity to deny it. Along the lines of Holocaust denial, vaccine denial, 9-11 truthers.

And what do you mean "jews are a bunch of splitters"???? Is this some sort of bigoted attack against a group of people just to poison the thread?

And btw, the Samaritans do NOT believe there was ever a temple at Mt Gerizim.

en.wikipedia.org

Mount Gerizim Temple - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

While the Jerusalem Temple remains central to Jewish theology, liturgy and historical consciousness, the Mount Gerizim temple has vanished from Samaritan memory, with modern Samaritans rejecting its historical existence altogether and interpreting the ancient remains as administrative buildings or a sacrificial compound.
 
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Hercules56 said:
Mt Gerizim? Such a claim is so stupid it's almost not worth responding to.



The amount of historical evidence that points to the Temple mount in Jerusalem, is so overwhelming that it is ignorant absurdity to deny it. Along the lines of Holocaust denial, vaccine denial, 9-11 truthers.

And what do you mean "jews are a bunch of splitters"???? Is this some sort of bigoted attack against a group of people just to poison the thread?
And btw, the Samaritans do NOT believe there was ever a temple at Mt Gerizim.
en.wikipedia.org

Mount Gerizim Temple - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

While the Jerusalem Temple remains central to Jewish theology, liturgy and historical consciousness, the Mount Gerizim temple has vanished from Samaritan memory, with modern Samaritans rejecting its historical existence altogether and interpreting the ancient remains as administrative buildings or a sacrificial compound.
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Dude, calm down, the splitters thing is a reference to Monty Python's the Life of Brian and the fact that the Samaritans and Jews split over where the proper place for the temple is and who could be a priest. Thing is, the Samaritans never left the levant, the Jews on the other hand, at least their leadership were removed to babylon. How would those Yawhehists know where the original and proper location of the temple is any more than the folks that never left.

From the Wiki you claim says there was no temple at Mount Gerizim.
Archaeological excavations have revealed that the sanctuary on Mount Gerizim was constructed during the 5th century BCE,
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There has been a temple there for millennia.

As to the highlighted bit, that is literally the biggest difference between the Jews and the Samaritans.
The most notable theological divide between Jewish and Samaritan doctrine concerns the world's holiest site, which the Jews believe is the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and which Samaritans believe is Mount Gerizim near modern Nablus and ancient Shechem.
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en.wikipedia.org

Samaritans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
www.britannica.com

Samaritan | Definition, Religion, & Bible | Britannica

Samaritan, member of a community, now nearly extinct, that claims to be related by blood to those Israelites of ancient Samaria who were not deported by the Assyrian conquerors of the kingdom of Israel in 722 BCE. The community numbers about 800 individuals.
www.britannica.com www.britannica.com

The Rabbis claim the Samaritans came from Mesopotamia during the Assyrian exile, the Samaritans claim they were natives that weren't conquered and exiled by the Assyrians. If the Samaritans are more likely the more original form of Yahweh worship.
 
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