The behaviour of UK police officers.

[Nessie]

Here is one from a while back. Police taser an elderly man, who is a race relations officer

https://youtu.be/yYifef0mhtI

The issue again being, if cops cannot restrain someone of that size, weight and age, should they be employed as cops?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Serving West Midlands Police officer charged with sexual assault

A serving West Midlands Police officer has been charged with an historical sexual offence against a child.

Student officer PC Joseph Powell is accused of assaulting a child under 13 by touching between 2009 and 2011 and faces a further charge of unauthorised access to information on a police computer.

He is due to appear at Coventry Magistrates' Court on 10 November.
PC Powell has remained suspended since his arrest on 6 August 2020.

The force confirmed the sexual offence charge pertained to a period that pre-dated his employment with them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-59055572

 

[Andy_Ross]

Rape charge for serving Metropolitan Police officer

A serving Metropolitan Police officer has been charged with rape.
PC Adam Zaman, 28, is alleged to have carried out the attack in the City of London on Sunday evening when he was off duty.

The officer, who is based in the East Area Command Unit, was arrested the next day and has been suspended by the Met.
He has been remanded in custody to appear at Westminster Magistrates' Court later.
The Met's Directorate of Professional Standards has been informed and the matter has been referred to the Independent Office for Police Conduct.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59050083

 

[Nessie]

An odd one, but the moral of the story, is police officers need to ensure they have a power of arrest. A driver who had a £100 commemorative coin, offered it as payment for £60 of petrol. It is legal tender, but the petrol station declined. The police were called, arrested the driver, but have now had to pay £5000 compensation, since they had no power to arrest him.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...a-man-petrol-commemorative-coin-b1946155.html

 

[Andy_Ross]

An odd one, but the moral of the story, is police officers need to ensure they have a power of arrest. A driver who had a £100 commemorative coin, offered it as payment for £60 of petrol. It is legal tender, but the petrol station declined. The police were called, arrested the driver, but have now had to pay £5000 compensation, since they had no power to arrest him.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...a-man-petrol-commemorative-coin-b1946155.html

He was on Jeremy Vine today.

He's a nut. It seems to be an obsession of his to pay for everything with these commemorative coins. He seems to take great delight in causing a fuss over it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

An odd one, but the moral of the story, is police officers need to ensure they have a power of arrest. A driver who had a £100 commemorative coin, offered it as payment for £60 of petrol. It is legal tender, but the petrol station declined. The police were called, arrested the driver, but have now had to pay £5000 compensation, since they had no power to arrest him.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...a-man-petrol-commemorative-coin-b1946155.html

Seems like the kind of petty crime that could be handled better with a summons (or whatever the UK equivalent is) rather than arrest, which would have the added bonus of avoiding causing harm in cases of misunderstanding.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Seems like the kind of petty crime that could be handled better with a summons (or whatever the UK equivalent is) rather than arrest, which would have the added bonus of avoiding causing harm in cases of misunderstanding.

If the commemorative coin is legal tender, then what crime has been committed?

Dave

 

[Nessie]

He was on Jeremy Vine today.

He's a nut. It seems to be an obsession of his to pay for everything with these commemorative coins. He seems to take great delight in causing a fuss over it.

It is an interesting way to make money. Rely on ignorance about legal tender, make a fuss, get arrested, get compensation. I suspect most cops do not know about what is legal tender and the law, but a simple online search finds

https://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/legal-tender-guidelines/

"We receive a lot of enquiries about our popular silver commemorative coins (including £5 crowns, £20, £50 and £100 coins) and their legal tender status. Each issue is authorised by Royal Proclamation in accordance with the requirements laid down by the Coinage Act 1971. This means that in common with coins in general circulation these coins have legal tender status.
Please note that whilst these coins are legal tender, they are not designed for general circulation, so banks and shops are unlikely to accept the coins."

In any case, a good cop would know it highly unlikely there is a power of arrest for trying to pay with a commemorative coin and if somewhere refuses to accept legal tender, it is a civil matter as to how payment is to be made.

 

[Nessie]

Seems like the kind of petty crime that could be handled better with a summons (or whatever the UK equivalent is) rather than arrest, which would have the added bonus of avoiding causing harm in cases of misunderstanding.

No criminal law was broken. If a shop declines what is legal tender, it is up to them to work out with the person how payment is to be made, which is a civil matter.

 

[shemp]

If the commemorative coin is legal tender, then what crime has been committed?

Dave

The only crime was the one the pigs who arrested him committed.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

No criminal law was broken. If a shop declines what is legal tender, it is up to them to work out with the person how payment is to be made, which is a civil matter.

My point is that even if you suspected a crime was occurring, perhaps arresting someone over the potential theft of 60 bucks worth of gas is not the right response.

In this case, cancelling a summons upon learning no crime occurred would carry a lot less collateral damage than having to admit a false arrest was made.

 

[Nessie]

My point is that even if you suspected a crime was occurring, perhaps arresting someone over the potential theft of 60 bucks worth of gas is not the right response.

In this case, cancelling a summons upon learning no crime occurred would carry a lot less collateral damage than having to admit a false arrest was made.

It is incumbent on the police, before they make any arrest to establish

1 - has a crime been committed?
2 - is there a power of arrest for that crime?

In this case, the police did neither and they had to accept a false arrest was made. Hence, £5k compensation has been paid out by D&C police.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm assuming this guy immediately converted this police payout into obscure, limited-run coins to continue to insist cashiers accept as payment.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I'm assuming this guy immediately converted this police payout into obscure, limited-run coins to continue to insist cashiers accept as payment.

Quite possibly, but he has a legal right to do so. For most goods it wouldn't be an issue because a cashier could simply refuse to accept the payment and there would be no sale, but once petrol is in the car it's not easy to return it. However, being an annoying, difficult and generally disruptive **** is not, in itself, a crime.

Dave

 

[ponderingturtle]

Quite possibly, but he has a legal right to do so. For most goods it wouldn't be an issue because a cashier could simply refuse to accept the payment and there would be no sale, but once petrol is in the car it's not easy to return it. However, being an annoying, difficult and generally disruptive **** is not, in itself, a crime.

Dave

I am just kind of surprised that they still let you pump gas before you pay, I have not seen that in a long time. Here you have to prepay inside or put it on a card first to pump gas.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I am just kind of surprised that they still let you pump gas before you pay, I have not seen that in a long time. Here you have to prepay inside or put it on a card first to pump gas.

I get the feeling a guy who pays for services with commemorative coins keeps an up-to-date shortlist of places where his obnoxious tactics are viable.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I get the feeling a guy who pays for services with commemorative coins keeps an up-to-date shortlist of places where his obnoxious tactics are viable.

That shortlist would probably include every petrol station in the UK. I have never seen one that required pre-payment before filling; there are automated card payment pumps that use card pre-payment, but there's always an option to pay at the booth and that always allows filling before paying.

Dave

 

[TurkeysGhost]

That shortlist would probably include every petrol station in the UK. I have never seen one that required pre-payment before filling; there are automated card payment pumps that use card pre-payment, but there's always an option to pay at the booth and that always allows filling before paying.

Dave

Such a trusting island, sounds nice.

 

[Nessie]

Drive offs from petrol stations is a regular call for the police, who have to give the driver the opportunity to return and pay. Being allowed to fill up before payment opens the door to mistakes (forgot wallet, I've done that), to insufficient funds and card rejected. It makes proving theft surprisingly hard.

 

[shemp]

Do stations still let people pump then pay? There isn't a single one around here that doesn't require payment before pumping. Of course, this usually just requires inserting a credit or debit card, but I'm sure many people still pay with cash. In an era of ubiquitous security cameras, who the hell thinks they can pump and run without their face and license plate being recorded?

 

[Dave Rogers]

I know of one petrol station in North Wales that not only allows fill then pay, they ask customers to tell them how much they need to pay. Their pumps don't seem to communicate with the till, and they'd rather trust their customers than keep having to walk across the forecourt and check.

Dave

 

[bluesjnr]

I am just kind of surprised that they still let you pump gas before you pay, I have not seen that in a long time. Here you have to prepay inside or put it on a card first to pump gas.

All, well most, UK petrol forecourts have ANPR cameras. Drive off without paying and you'll get a call from the local constabulary.

About three years ago I did exactly that (in error I might add) and was phoned by the police within days who suggested I go to the station and pay. There was no warning or threat of arrest but it was clear from the general tone that NOT paying wouldn't go down well.

Apparently, in some stations drivers can only fill their cars with fuel once the camera has captured and logged the vehicle's number plate. I've seen signs advising that there will be slight delay before delivery begins due to presence of ANPR.

 

[bluesjnr]

I get the feeling a guy who pays for services with commemorative coins keeps an up-to-date shortlist of places where his obnoxious tactics are viable.

He's on you tube. His twatish behaviour found it's way into my feed a while back and I watched two or three of his videos where he tries the same act. It got very old, very quick.

The ones I watched were always petrol stations, that way he had the goods before he attempted to exchange the coin (it always was a £100 coin he offered). I doubt he would have a channel on you tube if he tried to pay for a weeks groceries at the till in the same way.

I'm pretty sure he also buys these coins on Ebay for less than their face value!

 

[Andy_Ross]

That shortlist would probably include every petrol station in the UK. I have never seen one that required pre-payment before filling; there are automated card payment pumps that use card pre-payment, but there's always an option to pay at the booth and that always allows filling before paying.

Dave

Some supermarket pumps at unmanned sites are card only.

 

[Wudang]

I have seen a few stations in the UK that require prepayment but only after a certain time at night. And not all in questionable areas.

 

[Nessie]

Some supermarket pumps at unmanned sites are card only.

Those card payment pumps are a huge bonus for rural areas, that now have 24 hour access to fuel and make places cheaper to keep open. Even Applecross has 24 hour fuel now.

 

[jimbob]

Do stations still let people pump then pay? There isn't a single one around here that doesn't require payment before pumping. Of course, this usually just requires inserting a credit or debit card, but I'm sure many people still pay with cash. In an era of ubiquitous security cameras, who the hell thinks they can pump and run without their face and license plate being recorded?

A former colleague is a petrolhead. His car was stolen when he was working with us - a Subaru Impretza.

To use his words.

It was stolen by a Stokey* who obviously liked the car but not its fuel consumption because it was reported driving off without paying by a petrol station. And at the same time the next week.

The third time the police were there and followed him to his house, which was round the corner - it was by far the closest petrol station.

*An inhabitant of Stoke.

 

[Nessie]

Er, really!? This is how police behaviour is being tackled?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-act-feelings-attraction-towards-victims-new/

"Police told not to 'act on feelings' of attraction towards victims in new cartoon training video"

How about sacking all police officers who are found guilty of any form of sexual misconduct?

 

[sphenisc]

Er, really!? This is how police behaviour is being tackled?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-act-feelings-attraction-towards-victims-new/

"Police told not to 'act on feelings' of attraction towards victims in new cartoon training video"

How about sacking all police officers who are found guilty of any form of sexual misconduct?

Both seem like a good idea.

 

[Darat]

Er, really!? This is how police behaviour is being tackled?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-act-feelings-attraction-towards-victims-new/

"Police told not to 'act on feelings' of attraction towards victims in new cartoon training video"

It would seem some do indeed need training to know this, so can't criticise the training for that.

However, one thing I did note that I think is much more telling then they realise is that it is a female officer being used to demonstrate the "not asking a victim for their number".

A very telling indication of one of the serious issues within the police forces.

How about sacking all police officers who are found guilty of any form of sexual misconduct?

I'd say they need to do both.

 

[ZeeGerman]

Do stations still let people pump then pay? There isn't a single one around here that doesn't require payment before pumping. Of course, this usually just requires inserting a credit or debit card, but I'm sure many people still pay with cash. In an era of ubiquitous security cameras, who the hell thinks they can pump and run without their face and license plate being recorded?

Paying after filling up is still the norm in Germany. In fact, even paying by card directly at the pump is not possible at most stations. That's because the stations make most of their profit from selling overpriced food, snacks, and drinks from their small shops and want the customers to have to come in to pay.

 

[Nessie]

I am not criticising that the police are introducing training, but in the form of a cartoon? That is far too light-hearted. The training should be making it clear such conduct is unacceptable and will result in a dismissal if found guilty.

 

[zooterkin]

Paying after filling up is still the norm in Germany. In fact, even paying by card directly at the pump is not possible at most stations. That's because the stations make most of their profit from selling overpriced food, snacks, and drinks from their small shops and want the customers to have to come in to pay.

I suspect that's the same in the UK, although a lot of petrol stations do have pay at pump options. The size of the shops at some petrol stations are quite impressive, the fuel is almost an afterthought (that's aside from supermarkets which have a fuel station attached).

 

[Darat]

I am not criticising that the police are introducing training, but in the form of a cartoon? That is far too light-hearted. The training should be making it clear such conduct is unacceptable and will result in a dismissal if found guilty.

Effective training needs repetition and different ways of getting the information into folks' brains. I doubt that is all the training consists of.

The issue with that part of the training (knowing the problem there is with sexism within the police forces) is it is using an example of a female officer asking for a number. That means whoever approved the training is at best oblivious to the sexism issue or doesn't believe there is such an issue and you do not want such people involved with your training.

 

[catsmate]

He was on Jeremy Vine today.

He's a nut. It seems to be an obsession of his to pay for everything with these commemorative coins. He seems to take great delight in causing a fuss over it.

Good for him. Next he should sue Tesco for defamation.

 

[catsmate]

Seems like the kind of petty crime that could be handled better with a summons (or whatever the UK equivalent is) rather than arrest, which would have the added bonus of avoiding causing harm in cases of misunderstanding.

Except it wasn't a crime. The Tesco staff and the police need to educate themselves.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Except it wasn't a crime. The Tesco staff and the police need to educate themselves.

I would put his picture up behind every check out and say do not serve this man!

 

[Darat]

He was on Jeremy Vine today.

He's a nut. It seems to be an obsession of his to pay for everything with these commemorative coins. He seems to take great delight in causing a fuss over it.

Better approach is to make sure that shop staff know they do not have to accept such payment.

All coins issued by the Royal Mint are "legal tender" but they are not all circulating legal tender so there is no legal obligation for a shop etc. to accept them as payment. And obtaining goods without the means to pay for them is a criminal offense. The police could have arrested him for that.

ETA: for those that want the facts from the mouth of the Royal Mint itself: https://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/legal-tender-guidelines/

...snip...
In practice this means that although the silver UK coins we produce in denominations of £5, £20, £50 and £100 are approved as legal tender, they have been designed as limited edition collectables or gifts and will not be entering general circulation. As such, UK shops and banks are unlikely to accept them.
...snip...

And for this pillock this is the bit that needs to bite him in the arse:

....In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.....​

The petrol station should have accepted it and given him no change!

 

[jimbob]

Long post on Scrutable on this - not by me.

https://scrutable.science/viewtopic.php?p=101458#p101458

The post is worth reading - as is the thread but because of copypasta I'll pull out a few of the linked stories:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56581835

The Metropolitan Police is investigating allegations that a serving officer raped two of his female colleagues.

The officer was not charged and has not been suspended but faces a misconduct hearing more than three years after the allegations were reported. The women were awarded compensation but one of them says "we were just cast aside and not cared for".

https://www.lep.co.uk/news/crime/pr...-cleared-of-13-sexual-assault-charges-3228712

Preston police officer who slapped female colleague's bum and unclipped another's bra as a 'laugh' is cleared of 13 sexual assault charges
A Lancashire police officer accused of sexually molesting five female colleagues was this afternoon (Fri) cleared.

Because he said it wasn't sexual (yeah right)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-sex-abuse-claims-against-metropolitan-police

Individual cases are not dated but recorded as a summary of the allegations when the complaint was first received. The outcome of any disciplinary action is also given. Of the 119 cases that were upheld, 63 led to dismissals, retirements or resignations.

What is not disclosed, however, is how many cases entered into the criminal justice system.

“How many were charged with misconduct in a public office or sexual offences? If not then a proper explanation needs to be given. Disciplinary proceedings are no substitute for judicial proceedings,” said Afzal, who was chief crown prosecutor for the north-west of England.

Among those who resigned was an off-duty special constable who was accused of raping women he met at a nightclub. Last week Downing Street unveiled plans to protect women by putting plainclothes officers in nightclubs, a scheme swiftly derided by campaigners with some asking who would protect women from undercover police.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58883628

Radio presenter Emma Wilson has said Sarah Everard's murderer Wayne Couzens flashed her and that Met Police officers laughed when she reported it.

The Magic FM DJ - who is also known as Emma B - said he exposed himself to her when she walked past an alleyway in Greenwich, south-east London, in 2008.

She told BBC Radio 4's Woman's Hour she recognised him when she saw his photo in news reports.

The Met Police is investigating the presenter's complaint.

 

[Bob001]

He was on Jeremy Vine today.

He's a nut. It seems to be an obsession of his to pay for everything with these commemorative coins. He seems to take great delight in causing a fuss over it.

Wait. Isn't the commemorative coin worth more than the face value? Wouldn't that be a good deal for the store? I would love to sell you $20 worth of anything you want in exchange for a $20 double eagle (which is currently worth around $1900). Is this really a police matter?