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The behaviour of UK police officers.

Matthew Best said:
Why are we talking about sawn off shotguns? Is an analogy necessary or helpful when we could just talk about the thing itself?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I was struggling to remember the term for an offence for which there is no defence in law and the one example I could think of was possession in any form of a sawn off shotgun. My googling kept taking me to commercial rather than criminal law.
 
Wudang said:
Is possession of child pornography a, what's the term, is it strict liability, like possession of a sawn off shotgun. There is no defence, so if you find a sawn off shotgun while out for a walk, don't pick it up, call the police for them to take possession. My googling is weak today.
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Finding something and taking it to the police, is a possession of an illegal item that does have some precedent for exemptions with the Misuse of Drugs Act Sec 5 (4) (a) and (b). I was surprised she was done for possession, when she was sent it.

Sec 19 of the Firearms Act allows for a "reasonable excuse" to have a firearm in a public place, which should cover finding such.
 
Nessie said:
https://news.sky.com/story/police-p...o-later-died-prompting-investigation-12665534

"Police pepper sprayed then tasered one-legged 93-year-old man who later died, prompting investigation"

A one legged elderly man, wheelchair bound, with dementia, gets hold of a knife. Rather than patiently negotiating with him, the police taser and spray him. The cops have been warned the could face manslaughter charges.
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Just heard that one on the radio. They also used a baton on him.
 
Predictions on their final 'punishment' ? I fear the worst.
 
GlennB said:
Predictions on their final 'punishment' ? I fear the worst.
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On the employment side it seems they have committed gross misconduct, so that’s better than in the past. Personally I would say it should be murder not manslaughter - they knew his age, he was in a wheelchair and had dementia, a reasonable person would know that such a physical assault could result in death.
 
Darat said:
On the employment side it seems they have committed gross misconduct, so that’s better than in the past. Personally I would say it should be murder not manslaughter - they knew his age, he was in a wheelchair and had dementia, a reasonable person would know that such a physical assault could result in death.
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You're far more optimistic than me :(
I see ...

suspension on full pay
public outcry
suspension on no pay
getting fired
no criminal conviction, after an endless series of enquiries concluding 'Not in the public interest'

My cynicism about the state of our coppery is bottomless these days.
 
GlennB said:
You're far more optimistic than me :(
I see ...

suspension on full pay
public outcry
suspension on no pay
getting fired
no criminal conviction, after an endless series of enquiries concluding 'Not in the public interest'

My cynicism about the state of our coppery is bottomless these days.
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I hear ya bro'....
 
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Nessie said:
https://news.sky.com/story/police-p...o-later-died-prompting-investigation-12665534

"Police pepper sprayed then tasered one-legged 93-year-old man who later died, prompting investigation"

A one legged elderly man, wheelchair bound, with dementia, gets hold of a knife. Rather than patiently negotiating with him, the police taser and spray him. The cops have been warned the could face manslaughter charges.
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Imagine how badly it might have turned out for the elderly man if the officer had a gun! /s
 
GlennB said:
You're far more optimistic than me :(
I see ...

suspension on full pay
public outcry
suspension on no pay
getting fired
no criminal conviction, after an endless series of enquiries concluding 'Not in the public interest'

My cynicism about the state of our coppery is bottomless these days.
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In the US, they'd already be working for another department within a week of getting fired.
 
Darat said:
"....“I am not reassured that what happened to Child Q was an isolated issue, but instead believe it may be a particularly concerning example of a more systemic problem around child protection within the Metropolitan police. ...."

Racism
Sexism
Children

Is there anything they don't have a systemic problem with?
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No reindeer owners have complained to the best of my knowledge.
 
Darat said:
I'm struggling to see what is wrong with the police advert - looks to be part of a Scottish campaign across many sectors.
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If someone cannot manage to pass their school exams, how will they cope with all the exams at police college?
 
Nessie said:
If someone cannot manage to pass their school exams, how will they cope with all the exams at police college?
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I suspect things are different than they were from back in your time in the force and the bar may be lower.
 
Nessie said:
If someone cannot manage to pass their school exams, how will they cope with all the exams at police college?
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There can be lots of reasons why someone may not do well at school but later on in life may do better. The campaign seems to be trying to ensure that kids aren't thinking they are a write-off because of the results of one set of exams when they are very young. That is laudable.

If they fail the exams during training they will fail, like they would for any other job that requires an exam or certification against a standard.

Again really struggling to see the downside of this campaign.
 
Darat said:
There can be lots of reasons why someone may not do well at school but later on in life may do better. The campaign seems to be trying to ensure that kids aren't thinking they are a write-off because of the results of one set of exams when they are very young. That is laudable.
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The campaign is due to a 50% fall in applicants to Police Scotland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-62040344

They just need the numbers, there is no altruistic motive of giving kids a second chance.

If they fail the exams during training they will fail, like they would for any other job that requires an exam or certification against a standard.
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If they can't get schools exams, the chances of them passing exams on the law, evidencing, policy and procedures are pretty low.

Again really struggling to see the downside of this campaign.
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More police officers who lack the ability to learn and understand the job. Look at what is required just to record a crime;

https://www.scotland.police.uk/spa-...e-recording-and-counting-rules-april-2021.pdf
 
The athlete Ricardo Dos Santos is stopped by the police for allegedly using his phone in his car. He and his athlete partner Bianca Williams were stopped in 2020 in their car, in a widely criticised stop, where they were allegedly racially profiled and only stopped because they were black.

https://twitter.com/RDSS400/status/1558760246880894977

The tweets show that he failed to stop for some time, having led the police off a motorway onto a side street, before he decides to stop. S170 of the RTA 1988 requires anyone driving a vehicle to stop when indicated by the police. It is not up to the driver to decide when they think they should stop, the law tells them to stop. It is up to the police to then make the stop scene safe.
 
Nessie said:
On the day Scottish school pupils get their exam results, Police Scotland tweet this;

https://twitter.com/PoliceScotland/status/1556943682091220992

If you have failed all your exams, don't worry, you can still get a job with the police.
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I just checked what the NSW police require in their applications. They do not demand much more than that. Not sure what chance a person who has no qualifications has of being successful though.
Ref: https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/recruitment/application_process
 
rjh01 said:
I just checked what the NSW police require in their applications. They do not demand much more than that. Not sure what chance a person who has no qualifications has of being successful though.
Ref: https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/recruitment/application_process
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Police recruitment is the equivalent of a hospital recruiting all its staff by the same means, with no qualifications necessary and then deciding why gets to be a surgeon and who gets to clean the wards.
 
A news story about the police having to declare notifiable associations, as in they may have a member of their family who is a criminal, so they need to declare that, so as to protect the integrity of the job. That is reasonable, but the list of associations also includes journalists.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62698977

"Editors have questioned police guidance that they say links journalists with corruption, and "equates them with the wrongdoing they work to uncover".
National College of Policing guidelines say officers should declare relationships with journalists, just as they have to with convicted criminals."

A check of Police Scotland's procedure for declaring associations also includes lawyers and politicians (section 3.2).

https://www.scotland.police.uk/spa-media/qjqnl4hh/notifiable-associations-sop.pdf

I had a look for others and Lincs Police include journalists and lawyers;

https://beta.lincs.police.uk/SysSit...ies/notifiable-associations-policy-pd-193.pdf

"Persons employed as private investigators or within a criminal law legal firm;
Television, print and online journalists"

It also lists the BNP, EDL and other extremists groups. Interestingly, the Freemasons are not listed, nor is any other private members organisation. All those cops in the Freemasons do not want to have to notify the job of that association!
 
Nessie said:
A news story about the police having to declare notifiable associations, as in they may have a member of their family who is a criminal, so they need to declare that, so as to protect the integrity of the job. That is reasonable, but the list of associations also includes journalists.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62698977

"Editors have questioned police guidance that they say links journalists with corruption, and "equates them with the wrongdoing they work to uncover".
National College of Policing guidelines say officers should declare relationships with journalists, just as they have to with convicted criminals."

A check of Police Scotland's procedure for declaring associations also includes lawyers and politicians (section 3.2).

https://www.scotland.police.uk/spa-media/qjqnl4hh/notifiable-associations-sop.pdf

I had a look for others and Lincs Police include journalists and lawyers;

https://beta.lincs.police.uk/SysSit...ies/notifiable-associations-policy-pd-193.pdf

"Persons employed as private investigators or within a criminal law legal firm;
Television, print and online journalists"

It also lists the BNP, EDL and other extremists groups. Interestingly, the Freemasons are not listed, nor is any other private members organisation. All those cops in the Freemasons do not want to have to notify the job of that association!
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What is your position Nessie? Are such requirements a benison?
 
Nessie said:
Police recruitment is the equivalent of a hospital recruiting all its staff by the same means, with no qualifications necessary and then deciding why gets to be a surgeon and who gets to clean the wards based on exams and tests
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Only if you add the highlighted part.
 
I can well understand why journalists are on "the list". The police were notorious for taking backhanders from journalists for facts about cases. (This isn't whistleblowing, that's a different issue and can still be protected under the law.)
 
bluesjnr said:
What is your position Nessie? Are such requirements a benison?
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I had to declare an association, after a relative started a relationship with a known career criminal. Thankfully she eventually got sick of his behaviour and even gave evidence at a trial that resulted in him going to prison. I just avoided him like the plague whilst he was around.

Declaring associations with journalists, and with some forces, lawyers who work in criminal law and anyone active in politics, so anything from a councillor to an MP, is wrong. They are vital to democracy and a police officer should be able to associate freely with them. Being able to tip off journalists and politicians about issues is vital.

Declaring associations with criminals and certain extreme groups, like the EDL, or in Scotland the Orange Lodge, is obviously needed due to corruption and standards.
 
Nessie said:
I had to declare an association, after a relative started a relationship with a known career criminal. Thankfully she eventually got sick of his behaviour and even gave evidence at a trial that resulted in him going to prison. I just avoided him like the plague whilst he was around.

Declaring associations with journalists, and with some forces, lawyers who work in criminal law and anyone active in politics, so anything from a councillor to an MP, is wrong. They are vital to democracy and a police officer should be able to associate freely with them. Being able to tip off journalists and politicians about issues is vital.

Declaring associations with criminals and certain extreme groups, like the EDL, or in Scotland the Orange Lodge, is obviously needed due to corruption and standards.
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Do you see declaration as an impingement on freedom of association?
 
Nessie said:
I had to declare an association, after a relative started a relationship with a known career criminal. Thankfully she eventually got sick of his behaviour and even gave evidence at a trial that resulted in him going to prison. I just avoided him like the plague whilst he was around.

Declaring associations with journalists, and with some forces, lawyers who work in criminal law and anyone active in politics, so anything from a councillor to an MP, is wrong. They are vital to democracy and a police officer should be able to associate freely with them. Being able to tip off journalists and politicians about issues is vital.
Declaring associations with criminals and certain extreme groups, like the EDL, or in Scotland the Orange Lodge, is obviously needed due to corruption and standards.
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That's whistleblowing.
 
Darat said:
Not seeing how you get to that conclusion from what you posted.
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Police Scotland has a history of trying to control cop contact with the press. The Counter Corruption Unit spent much of its time trying to find which cops had given stories to the press and hardly anything to do with corruption. It had to be disbanded after a critical HMICS report.

Notifiable associations between cops and journalists is a form of control. It is sending a message that journalists cannot be trusted and it is trying to deter contact with them. It is also a way to gather evidence as to who is a likely source of a news story. Say the Herald publishes an anti-police story, PSD can start by investigating all cops with notifiable associations with Herald journalists.
 
Nessie said:
Police Scotland has a history of trying to control cop contact with the press. The Counter Corruption Unit spent much of its time trying to find which cops had given stories to the press and hardly anything to do with corruption. It had to be disbanded after a critical HMICS report.

Notifiable associations between cops and journalists is a form of control. It is sending a message that journalists cannot be trusted and it is trying to deter contact with them. It is also a way to gather evidence as to who is a likely source of a news story. Say the Herald publishes an anti-police story, PSD can start by investigating all cops with notifiable associations with Herald journalists.
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Again you seem to be confusing whistleblowing with criminal acts. Whistleblowing is protected (in certain circumstances), leaking information and taking backhanders about cases isn't.
 
Darat said:
Again you seem to be confusing whistleblowing with criminal acts. Whistleblowing is protected (in certain circumstances), leaking information and taking backhanders about cases isn't.
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It is the police who are confusing whistleblowing or leaking stories to the press with criminal acts, by making associations with criminals and journalists notifiable.
 
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