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Tetrahydropyranylcyclopentyltetrahydropyridopyridine

Supercalifragisticexpealidocious.
Never heard of that, but put it into google and, although I didn't look further, but it does supply a meaning, just an informal one but still, so not something you just made up! ...Like cromulent, I guess.
 
Nothing to do with this thread really, but it just popped into my mind, just now, and can't hurt to just note that down here, kind of at random: apparently some publication, I forget which, decided that the number 67 should be the word of the year. Don't know why exactly, but it's supposed to mean middling, moderate, something like that.
 
Yep. Not Russian. Nor a word really. As this thread indicates. The news report was wrong in suggesting that, clearly.


Wait what? This suggests the Japanese do have their own way of naming these compound thingies, and don't always follow IUPAC standards.

I don't suppose you'd know the whats and whys and wherefores of that, but you do seem to be fluent in Japanese, would you know what some other compounds might be? If they're just transliteration in Japanese script --- and you'd know that, since you know Japanese --- then that's what we'd expect; but if from random recall or quick random lookup if there's maybe a few that do seem different: well, that'll mean that what we've taken (or at least, that I have taken), basis this thread, may not always be the case, as far as this nomenclature business.
On the Google home page just write english to japanese and a translator will appear.

Pretty much any chemical you can think of has a Japanese word for it.

tetrafluoric acid 四フッ酸
trimethyl toluene トリメチルトルエン
polyester ポリエステル

trimethyl cetyl ammonium p-toluenesulfonate トリメチルセチルアンモニウムp-トルエンスルホン酸塩]
cetrimonium tosylate セトリモニウムトシル酸塩
 
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On the Google home page just write english to japanese and a translator will appear.

Pretty much any chemical you can think of has a Japanese word for it.

tetrafluoric acid 四フッ酸
trimethyl toluene トリメチルトルエン
polyester ポリエステル

trimethyl cetyl ammonium p-toluenesulfonate トリメチルセチルアンモニウムp-トルエンスルホン酸塩

Right. And, do those Japanese characters represent simply the pronunciation of the "English" name of it, even if approximately, or is it a whole different pronunciation, so clearly a whole different word? (You seem to be implying the latter, but just to be sure that's what you do mean.)
 
Right. And, do those Japanese characters represent simply the pronunciation of the "English" name of it, even if approximately, or is it a whole different pronunciation, so clearly a whole different word? (You seem to be implying the latter, but just to be sure that's what you do mean.)
The kanji represent different words whereas the katakana are approximations of English words. The Japanese word for tetrafluoric acid for example is a completely different word, whereas the Japanese word for polyester is poriesuteru, which is the way Japanese pronounce the same word.
 
Right. And, do those Japanese characters represent simply the pronunciation of the "English" name of it, even if approximately, or is it a whole different pronunciation, so clearly a whole different word? (You seem to be implying the latter, but just to be sure that's what you do mean.)
In linguistics, a morpheme is a base unit of meaning. By international convention, chemical compounds are described as a chain of morphemes derived from Greek. People write out the morphemes in their own phonetic alphabet. At no point does anyone come up with a whole new set of morphemes, derived from their own language, to describe chemical compounds.

Earlier you asked a question about standards enforcement. In general, conventions like this don't need a lot of enforcement.They're opt-in, and businesses opt-in so that they have a common language for communicating. If you're selling chemical compounds to a global market, it helps to use the same language everyone else is using. Likewise if you're buying compounds, or selling equipment used to make compounds, or writing research papers that discuss compounds, etc.

This is a common behavior in any industry: The major players get together and agree on a common language for what they do and how they do it. In a lot of cases, they'll even pitch into a common fund for a standards organization that serves the entire industry.
 
Nothing to do with this thread really, but it just popped into my mind, just now, and can't hurt to just note that down here, kind of at random: apparently some publication, I forget which, decided that the number 67 should be the word of the year. Don't know why exactly, but it's supposed to mean middling, moderate, something like that.
Six seven is gen alpha slang, and it doesn't actually mean anything (or maybe it means everything), but it makes gen A laugh!
 
Nothing to do with this thread really, but it just popped into my mind, just now, and can't hurt to just note that down here, kind of at random: apparently some publication, I forget which, decided that the number 67 should be the word of the year. Don't know why exactly, but it's supposed to mean middling, moderate, something like that.
This reminds of the time some guy said something about something, and it really stuck with me. Words to live by.
 
The kanji represent different words whereas the katakana are approximations of English words. The Japanese word for tetrafluoric acid for example is a completely different word, whereas the Japanese word for polyester is poriesuteru, which is the way Japanese pronounce the same word.

What about trimethyl toluene, that you mentioned earlier?

(Where I was coming from is this. Clearly for some compounds they do follow "English" conventions, and for some they don't. Is there any pattern to this, I was wondering. Could be the more popular and everyday ones, maybe? Or what? ...Or is it an organic/inorganic thing? ...Trying to clearly understand how this works.)

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Generally, and not in connection specifically with what you said: This general convention for (supposedly) standardized names for chemical compounds: Is it limited only to organic compounds? That would be curious, and kind of random, unless there's some specific reason why.
 
What about trimethyl toluene, that you mentioned earlier?

(Where I was coming from is this. Clearly for some compounds they do follow "English" conventions, and for some they don't. Is there any pattern to this, I was wondering. Could be the more popular and everyday ones, maybe? Or what? ...Or is it an organic/inorganic thing? ...Trying to clearly understand how this works.)
Do you have some examples of each type?
 
In linguistics, a morpheme is a base unit of meaning. By international convention, chemical compounds are described as a chain of morphemes derived from Greek. People write out the morphemes in their own phonetic alphabet. At no point does anyone come up with a whole new set of morphemes, derived from their own language, to describe chemical compounds.

Earlier you asked a question about standards enforcement. In general, conventions like this don't need a lot of enforcement.They're opt-in, and businesses opt-in so that they have a common language for communicating. If you're selling chemical compounds to a global market, it helps to use the same language everyone else is using. Likewise if you're buying compounds, or selling equipment used to make compounds, or writing research papers that discuss compounds, etc.

This is a common behavior in any industry: The major players get together and agree on a common language for what they do and how they do it. In a lot of cases, they'll even pitch into a common fund for a standards organization that serves the entire industry.

That's the idea, sure. We were at that point last time I responded to you. Since, there've been some posts that suggest that, perhaps, that might not necessarily always be the case. That's what I was trying to explore. (For instance, see @Puppycow 's post: tetrafluoric acid isn't organic, but apparently the Japanese didn't follow the principle you've outlined above in that instance, even though, sure, the principle itself is a reasonable one.)

This reminds of the time some guy said something about something, and it really stuck with me. Words to live by.

Congratulations, well done, pat on back?
 
Six seven is gen alpha slang, and it doesn't actually mean anything (or maybe it means everything), but it makes gen A laugh!

Just checked. It's Dictionary.com that made it word of the year. And it's basis some song by some singer called Skrilla, apparently.


(Didn't check further, so don't really know what the lyrics are, and how that translates into what that term means.)
 
That's the idea, sure. We were at that point last time I responded to you. Since, there've been some posts that suggest that, perhaps, that might not necessarily always be the case. That's what I was trying to explore. (For instance, see @Puppycow 's post: tetrafluoric acid isn't organic, but apparently the Japanese didn't follow the principle you've outlined above in that instance, even though, sure, the principle itself is a reasonable one.)
One thing that hasn't been touched on is technical terms versus commercial terms. It's not clear to me whether Puppycow is saying the Japanese evolved their own technical term before the modern conventions went global, or if it's just a case of a Japanese trade name for a compound that also has a technical term. Kind of like how Tylenol isn't the English word for acetaminophen, it's just a brand name.

Each type? Organic and inorganic compounds, do you mean? Pick any that you're familiar with, in context of what we're discussing.
Each type of term. You say some terms follow English conventions, and others don't. It would help me understand what you mean, if you provided one or two examples of each.
 
Just checked. It's Dictionary.com that made it word of the year. And it's basis some song by some singer called Skrilla, apparently.


(Didn't check further, so don't really know what the lyrics are, and how that translates into what that term means.)
Congratulations. Well done.
 
One thing that hasn't been touched on is technical terms versus commercial terms. It's not clear to me whether Puppycow is saying the Japanese evolved their own technical term before the modern conventions went global, or if it's just a case of a Japanese trade name for a compound that also has a technical term. Kind of like how Tylenol isn't the English word for acetaminophen, it's just a brand name.

Sure, could be. That's what we're trying to explore. Some of us. Others are latching on to the discussion trying to be an ass. ...Not having to try, actually.

Each type of term. You say some terms follow English conventions, and others don't. It would help me understand what you mean, if you provided one or two examples of each.

Congratulations. Well done.

Just read this thread. Then, if you actually are able to contribute, then do that. If you can't, then don't, no big loss really.

And I know it's difficult for you to act out of character, but stop being an ass if you possibly can. That nonsense isn't worth putting up with, and will simply be ignored going forward, as far as I'm concerned.
 
What about trimethyl toluene, that you mentioned earlier?

(Where I was coming from is this. Clearly for some compounds they do follow "English" conventions, and for some they don't. Is there any pattern to this, I was wondering. Could be the more popular and everyday ones, maybe? Or what? ...Or is it an organic/inorganic thing? ...Trying to clearly understand how this works.)

----------

Generally, and not in connection specifically with what you said: This general convention for (supposedly) standardized names for chemical compounds: Is it limited only to organic compounds? That would be curious, and kind of random, unless there's some specific reason why.
Organic or inorganic has nothing to do with it. It's newer words or older words. It may also have to do with whether the word came from English or Chinese or fit into an existing category of chemicals like acids. I don't really know the deep history.
 
Organic compounds, because Carbon is such a slut and makes multiple bonds with all sorts of things, trend far more complicated than inorganic compounds. So the compounds that get such crazy names tend to be the organic ones.
 
Organic or inorganic has nothing to do with it. It's newer words or older words. It may also have to do with whether the word came from English or Chinese or fit into an existing category of chemicals like acids. I don't really know the deep history.

Yep, newer words vis-a-vis older ones, that makes sense. Like pencillin, and no doubt others. Stuff that might have gotten mainstreamed, for whatever value of "mainstreamed", before standardization became a thing, and which persisted even after standardization, simply through inertia.

(Maybe the commercial application thing that @theprestige suggested, that sounds reasonable, as well.)

As for whether it came from English or Chinese, that simply throws the ball one further step back, without actually clarifying the issue, right? Because if it came from Chinese, then we have to ask how they, the Chinese that is to say, came to have words for chemicals that are different than in English. Again, older words vis-a-vis newer ones might be what it's about, and/or the commercial/brand thing maybe.

And fair enough, your not knowing the detailed history of it. You know far more than I did, heh, I hadn't even known (or recalled, I'm not sure which!) that there's actually standardization for this nomenclature across geographies and languages. (Notwithstanding some lapses within how that standardization is observed, which nuance is what we're exploring now; but certainly in most cases the nomenclature is indeed standardized, that much at least seems fully clear.)
 
Organic compounds, because Carbon is such a slut and makes multiple bonds with all sorts of things, trend far more complicated than inorganic compounds. So the compounds that get such crazy names tend to be the organic ones.

Uhhh, sure, organic compounds are way, way more complex, and more varied, than inorganic compounds, absolutely! ...But, not quite sure how that ties in to the nomenclature thing we were discussing. Would you flesh out that thought, didn't quite get your meaning.
 
...Actually, this question, yeah, I think I'll just look it up, just a bit, and see if I can't arrive at some answers to these questions myself. Never ever had occasion to think about this: but it's an interesting question, and ...I don't know, it doesn't seem quite as straightforward as it first appeared. (Or, I don't know, maybe it is too, that Japanese example notwithstanding?)
 
Okay, basis a quick check, I think I do have some tentative answers, listed below simply in order of how I recall what I read through just now:

1. Yep, IUPAC does set the rules for all names of all chemical compounds.

2. It sets rules for naming of all compounds, not just organic but inorganic as well. And elements as well. And much else besides, like units and stuff. They’ve got separate manuals for organic compounds, and inorganic compounds, and other stuff as well, which they denote by color: Red Book, Blue Book, Green Book, etc.

3. As far as I could gather, IUPAC names new elements or chemicals itself, or at least ratifies them. That is, it actually involves itself with every name, of every new chemical compound that is discovered or made, is what I gather.

4. That said, there’s still a great deal of divergence about names of chemical compounds, for a number of reasons:

(i) IUPAC was formed only about 100 years ago, so names from before then sometimes get carried forward simply through inertia. Informal names, that vary sometimes by country and language.

(ii) Commercial/brand names become popular sometimes. That too, absolutely.

(iii) IUPAC isn’t the only body that sets rules for naming, and names compounds. Even as far as chemistry itself, there’s many other bodies. Like CAS, and IUBMB, and InChiI, and SMILES. They aren’t rival bodies, all of them act in agreement with IUPAC, and in fact at least one of them was set up by IUPAC itself, it’s just that they assign names to fit “mechanical retrieval”, to help with easy indexing, and basis the requirements of such other specific purposes, --- given that IUPAC names can be huge and unwieldy.

(iv) Outside of pure chemistry, there’s other bodies that set the rules, and the names, for chemical compounds --- like medicine, public health, biochemistry, …etc, etc. That’s because they find IUPAC names too long and unwieldy, and unnecessarily detailed, so they set their own names basis their own rules. And in some fields, like Medicine for instance, different countries can have their own different bodies, whose rules and names again may differ from one another sometimes. So, the same compound can have different names, as assigned by and basis the rules of these different bodies.

(v) One added layer of complexity is when all of these are translated into other languages. Over and above the differences already discussed. (Don’t know if that’s the case with our particular Japanese word, upthread: but if you simply compare a Japanese name of a chemical compound with an English name, then, unless someone that knows what they’re about, makes fully sure to compare like with like, then you may end up with very different names, as discussed above. And add to that differences on account purely of language, script and pronunciation structure specific to individual languages.)

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ETA: Yep, that's about it. Just:

Disclaimer: I’m as far from an expert as can be. I started this thread not even knowing about IUPAC. And this is what I got off of some quick internet “research”, is all. So, anyone better informed, particularly if you’re actually professionally involved with this sort of thing: any corrections and further additions will be appreciated.

FYI, the links I checked out (some, particularly the 150-pager PDF, only very cursorily and via search words, and not exhaustively):

1. https://www.enago.com/academy/how-to-write-chemical-compound-names-journal-manuscripts-part3/#:~:text=Who Decides how Chemical Compounds,scientists encounter with chemical nomenclature.

2. https://web.cas.org/marketing/pdf/indexguideapp.pdf

3. https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_nomenclature

4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_nomenclature

5. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2659868/
 
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The only thought I had about this was Teatime with Putin. He wants to discuss that latest battle.....

A complex chemical compound related to Russia, seems about right.
 
Uhhh, sure, organic compounds are way, way more complex, and more varied, than inorganic compounds, absolutely! ...But, not quite sure how that ties in to the nomenclature thing we were discussing. Would you flesh out that thought, didn't quite get your meaning.
Because the nomenclature is actually a code that very precisely and accurately describes the exact physical structure of the molecule - a code that requires several years of tertiary level education in organic chemistry to understand fully. That's why the bigger the molecule, the longer the name.
 
Because the nomenclature is actually a code that very precisely and accurately describes the exact physical structure of the molecule - a code that requires several years of tertiary level education in organic chemistry to understand fully. That's why the bigger the molecule, the longer the name.

Yep, absolutely.

Got to wondering which might be the longest IUPAC name. Turns out it is Titin, a protein molecule. Next to which even the huge Sanskrit word, the longest regular word referenced upthread, is totally dwarfed, because Titin's IUPAC name is a whopping 189,819 letter monstrosity!

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titin

But of course, that's not like to like. That's not a word but a formula, a description.

Going a bit into all of this, it does appear that that Russian news article was beyond silly, and written out by someone with zero knowledge of what they were talking about. That Tetra-word isn't anywhere close to the longest, no matter how you compare; nor is it Russian; and nor is it even a word.
 
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