Telegram founder arrested in France

[Roboramma]

Does the owner of the getaway car get charged if they make it available for anybody to use for free as long as they provide an email address, no questions asked?

I certainly hope not. That sounds like an act of charity that's good for society at large. "People can use my car for free" is a good thing, even if someone might use it for a crime. Most of the uses of cars are not crimes and most of the consequences of letting people use your car for free are net positives for society.

If you have a free public transit system, some criminals might use it, but most of the people riding it will be law abiding citizens trying to get around. If you have a network of free cars, the same will be true.

 

[mumblethrax]

I don’t think that would create any criminal liability, at least in the US.

It easily could, if the owner of the car knew or should have known of intent to use the car for criminal activity (even if not for the crime that was eventually committed). There's a fairly famous case in the US where a man was convicted of felony murder and sentenced to life-without-the-possibility-for-parole for lending his car to a friend who used it in the commission of murder.

I don't consider that to be a good outcome, but mostly because the felony murder rule is bonkers, and not because I think there should be zero culpability in lending your car to someone who uses it to crime a crime.

I also don't think these analogies are particularly useful, because it's easy to construct them in ways that prime the intuition pumps, and none of them capture the heightened attention that crimes involving facilitated speech should have in liberal-democratic societies.

 

[arthwollipot]

Yeah, I believe that someone who is knowingly complicit in the commission in a crime can be charged as an accessory, even if they took no part in the crime itself.

Apart from all of the other crimes he committed, Durov is at least an accessory to many more. He knew full well what people were doing on his platform.

 

[a_unique_person]

I have no doubt that Muscovite Telegram is a miserable pile of cyberbullying. I have a lot of doubt that cyberbullying should be a crime. I have even more doubt that there are non-onerous ways for a social media service provider to prevent cyberbullying on their platform.

What I don't get is, why do all the Ukrainians seem to use Telegram?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

What I don't get is, why do all the Ukrainians seem to use Telegram?

most of them have Russian relatives, who might not have access to a different communications/media app.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Yeah, I believe that someone who is knowingly complicit in the commission in a crime can be charged as an accessory, even if they took no part in the crime itself.



Apart from all of the other crimes he committed, Durov is at least an accessory to many more. He knew full well what people were doing on his platform.

Hertz presumably have indemnifying conditions in their small print saying you agree not to use their rental cars for the commission of crimes. Telegram, like all social media, will have similar indemnifying conditions where you agree not to send illegal material in messages. I'm not seeing a fundamental difference.

PS I don't know what "all the other crimes" you're referring to that Durov committed. If he committed other crimes why is anyone surprised he's detained?

 

[catsmate]

Does the driver of the getaway car get charged for robbery?

Generally yes, 'common purpose'. Depending on the jurisdiction (and the events) they can also be charged with murder, assault, weapons possession, et cetera.

Does the owner of the getaway car get charged if they make it available for anybody to use for free as long as they provide an email address, no questions asked?

If the putative "reasonable person" would have had suspicions that said vehicle would be used for a criminal purpose, then quite possibly.

 

[Samson]

Go to the source interview from 3 days back with

TUCKER CARLSON!

57 minutes

https://youtu.be/8i1Y7WsuwV8?si=_bcMDAVmhSfBOH6R

"In this eye-opening video, Telegram's creator, Pavel Durov, discusses his thoughts on Elon Musk, his battles against FBI pressure, and the harrowing experience of being mugged in California. Dive deep into the personal story behind one of the most influential tech entrepreneurs as he shares insights on government surveillance, privacy, and the challenges of running a secure messaging platform. Learn how these pivotal moments have shaped Durov’s mission with Telegram and his dedication to privacy and freedom of speech."

Eta

Just listening myself, and half way thru Tucker says with hilarity:

"If you ignore your problems most of them go away...."

 

[Samson]

900 million users, soon to be a billion.
Am I the only person who never heard of Telegram?

 

[dirtywick]

probably not the only person. it's like rumble or kick, basically an alt right app. in case you're wondering why there seems to be a partisan divide on framing this as a free speech issue

 

[Darat]

Remember the French justice system is an inquisitorial system not an adversarial common law system like we in the "anglosphere" are familiar with. It means that legal principles that hold for us may not hold for the French.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Am I the only person who never heard of Telegram?

probably not the only person. it's like rumble or kick

I'm well aware of Telegram but with pleasing irony I literally never heard of Rumble or Kick.

 

[Samson]

I'm well aware of Telegram but with pleasing irony I literally never heard of Rumble or Kick.

I know of Rumble but not Kick or Telegram.
Rumble is I think where You tubers get kicked onto.
Apparently the T Carlson interview is older, but I sense everyone should be wary of what they wish for.
Who among us has been incited to ill doings by our social media preoccupations?
I thought not, it is an other people thing.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I know of Rumble but not Kick or Telegram.
Rumble is I think where You tubers get kicked onto.
Apparently the T Carlson interview is older, but I sense everyone should be wary of what they wish for.
Who among us has been incited to ill doings by our social media preoccupations?
I thought so, it is an other people thing.

I don't really follow quite a bit of that but I do know about Telegram because of a Ukrainian YouTuber who puts war-related footage on his Telegram channel because YouTube has become highly restrictive on what it lets him show. (Not gory stuff, things they would show on TV news.)

I don't use Telegram, but you can choose to "preview" his channel in an ordinary web browser.

 

[chrispy]

900 million users, soon to be a billion.
Am I the only person who never heard of Telegram?

I'm familiar with Telegram, but only in a passing "oh, yeah, heard the name" sense. It's like TikTok. I know it exists but a) don't really give a **** and b) It is like cocaine -I've made it this far in life without using it, so why start now.

 

[catsmate]

Go to the source interview from 3 days back with

TUCKER CARLSON!

57 minutes

https://youtu.be/8i1Y7WsuwV8?si=_bcMDAVmhSfBOH6R

"In this eye-opening video, Telegram's creator, Pavel Durov, discusses his thoughts on Elon Musk, his battles against FBI pressure, and the harrowing experience of being mugged in California. Dive deep into the personal story behind one of the most influential tech entrepreneurs as he shares insights on government surveillance, privacy, and the challenges of running a secure messaging platform. Learn how these pivotal moments have shaped Durov’s mission with Telegram and his dedication to privacy and freedom of speech."

Eta

Just listening myself, and half way thru Tucker says with hilarity:

"If you ignore your problems most of them go away...."

Is there a point buried in his steaming pile of nonsense?

900 million users, soon to be a billion.
Am I the only person who never heard of Telegram?

Probably. You get your thoughts from Mushie's echo chamber.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Hertz presumably have indemnifying conditions in their small print saying you agree not to use their rental cars for the commission of crimes...

A brief aside: A few hours after writing the above I looked at YouTube's home screen and by striking coincidence the first video was actually an ad for the specific car rental company mentioned above. A welcome break from all those hot women from Ukraine eager to meet me.

I wonder if it's possible to make lightning strike twice. Perhaps I should say that Bosch washing machines probably have similar small print about not misusing their product. I can't imagine how you'd use your Bosch washing machine in the commission of bank robberies but presumably there's a gag about money laundering just waiting to be made. Bosch washing machines are not an item which I can recall seeing any ads for on that popular video site but I wonder if my immediate future contains more Bosch products?

Experiment over. As you were. Carry on.

 

[Ziggurat]

It easily could, if the owner of the car knew or should have known of intent to use the car for criminal activity

That's an extra condition which wasn't included in the prior hypothetical.

I also don't think these analogies are particularly useful, because it's easy to construct them in ways that prime the intuition pumps, and none of them capture the heightened attention that crimes involving facilitated speech should have in liberal-democratic societies.

Yes, I agree with that.

 

[Ziggurat]

A welcome break from all those hot women from Ukraine eager to meet me.

<pitch meeting voice> War widows are tight. </pitch meeting voice>

 

[theprestige]

probably not the only person. it's like rumble or kick, basically an alt right app.

That doesn't explain its popularity among Ukrainian soldiers.

in case you're wondering why there seems to be a partisan divide on framing this as a free speech issue

Some of us care about the free speech of our enemies. Others don't. That's the divide.

 

[plague311]

Some of us care about the free speech of our enemies. Others don't. That's the divide.

Other countries don't define free speech the same as the US. Which is great.

 

[theprestige]

Because a laundry list of charges entails a laundry list of allegations, which you seem to regard as suspect in some vague way.

Airing a laundry list of allegations seems like a PR stunt to me. Even if they really are certain that every one of those crimes has been committed, and really are devoting resources to investigating every single one.

Obviously, authorities are going to suspect that someone has violated the law in particular ways prior to having formally charged them.

Obviously.

What makes you think they are "handwaving"? Maybe, just maybe, these are the actual things that are being investigated?

My view is that unsupported allegations by the police are a PR stunt, even if they are actually investigating. Even if they actually have a good reason to investigate. Police spokespeople very often decline to comment on ongoing investigations. Publicly announcing every single crime a person of interest might be somehow involved in is a public relations choice, not a judicial mandate or legal requirement.

I'm against unsupported claims generally. And generally, I think the police should not allege criminality until they're ready to present their supporting evidence.

 

[theprestige]

Other countries don't define free speech the same as the US. Which is great.

Yeah, some countries get it horribly wrong. Other countries, it's more of a potato, potato situation. Or at least an "if it works for you, great" situation. It's okay to debate whether some other country is doing a good job of it. Salutary, even.

 

[theprestige]

I also don't think these analogies are particularly useful, because it's easy to construct them in ways that prime the intuition pumps, and none of them capture the heightened attention that crimes involving facilitated speech should have in liberal-democratic societies.

Beautifully said.

 

[theprestige]

Here...




Link

If fears of indefinite detention are what people are wringing their hands over, then wring them no more.

I'm not wringing my hands over it. I'm not even particularly afraid of it, in this case. I did raise it as one of the few concerns I might actually have. If he's charged or released today, all's well that ends well, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[plague311]

Yeah, some countries get it horribly wrong. Other countries, it's more of a potato, potato situation. Or at least an "if it works for you, great" situation. It's okay to debate whether some other country is doing a good job of it. Salutary, even.

There are no signs that France got this horrible wrong, but I don't have a lot of interest in debating it. You're an American, it's common for Americans to think that every country that doesn't have the same laws or processes as the US is "get(ting) it horribly wrong". Which I find comical.

 

[theprestige]

There are no signs that France got this horrible wrong, but I don't have a lot of interest in debating it. You're an American, it's common for Americans to think that every country that doesn't have the same laws or processes as the US is "get(ting) it horribly wrong". Which I find comical.

Nobody has suggested that France got this horribly wrong. The question of free speech on social media platforms, and the liability of the platform to police the speech there, has been a topic of debate for quite some time now. It's reasonable to raise the question and examine individual incidents as they come up. Your invocation of a hateful stereotype, where no evidence of that stereotype exists, is a bizarre left turn.

 

[plague311]

Nobody has suggested that France got this horribly wrong.

Then why the **** bring up that some countries get it horribly wrong? I didn't introduce the idea to the conversation, you did.

The question of free speech on social media platforms, and the liability of the platform to police the speech there, has been a topic of debate for quite some time now. It's reasonable to raise the question and examine individual incidents as they come up. Your invocation of a hateful stereotype, where no evidence of that stereotype exists, is a bizarre left turn.

Lol, precious.

 

[Donal]

probably not the only person. it's like rumble or kick, basically an alt right app. in case you're wondering why there seems to be a partisan divide on framing this as a free speech issue

Telegram is not exlcusively for whtie suprmacists the way Rumble and Kick are. That's why it is popular in places like Ukraine. The founder is Russian, but he doesn't seem to care who is using the platform and has actually come into conflict with Putin regarding censorship and tracking.

Its popular among the homelab and self hosting crowd because it has easy to configure bots that can send alerts and updates regarding said services. I use it myself for that.

As for teh sepcific charges...I dunno. I am not familiar enough with the French legal system or this case in aprticualr to render an informed opinion. Not that such a deficiancy prevents some folks around here.

 

[theprestige]

Then why the **** bring up that some countries get it horribly wrong? I didn't introduce the idea to the conversation, you did.

Why bring up that different countries have different definitions of free speech? I was trying to have a conversation, tell you that I got what you were saying, and acknowledging that there's a range of definitions out there.

My general impression is that the countries of Western Europe are pretty liberal overall, but tend to take a more restrictive view of free speech than the US does. I think they sometimes get too restrictive, but I don't think they're particularly horrible. This doesn't have to be an acrimonious exchange of views...

Lol, precious.

... But here we are.

 

[catsmate]

There are no signs that France got this horrible wrong, but I don't have a lot of interest in debating it. You're an American, it's common for Americans to think that every country that doesn't have the same laws or processes as the US is "get(ting) it horribly wrong". Which I find comical.

Indeed. Many USAians get very upset when you point out that other countries have superior social/political/legal/economic arrangements.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

I can't imagine how you'd use your Bosch washing machine in the commission of bank robberies but presumably there's a gag about money laundering just waiting to be made

One could slip the teller a note that reads: "I have a 2.2 cubit foot front-loader. Give me all your money or I will put your white dress shirts in with the darks."

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

Nobody has suggested that France got this horribly wrong. The question of free speech on social media platforms, and the liability of the platform to police the speech there, has been a topic of debate for quite some time now. It's reasonable to raise the question and examine individual incidents as they come up. Your invocation of a hateful stereotype, where no evidence of that stereotype exists, is a bizarre left turn.

Some jurisdictions give more weight to protecting people from harmful speech and hate speech than to protecting harmful speech and hateful speech.

I much prefer living in a country that respects the rule of law.

 

[erwinl]

Some jurisdictions give more weight to protecting people from harmful speech and hate speech than to protecting harmful speech and hateful speech.

I much prefer living in a country that respects the rule of law.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this post, as I feel that the second sentence does not follow from the first one.

 

[Oystein]

Durov has been released on bail.
Had to post $5.5 million in bond.
Must not leave France (he has French citizenship, among others)
He must report to French police twice a week.
He is under formal investigation now.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/08/28/tech/pavel-durov-telegram-custody-released-intl/index.html

The formal investigation announced Wednesday evening does not imply guilt in the French legal system, but indicates that prosecutors believe there is enough of a case to merit a serious official investigation. He has not yet been formally charged.

Wednesday’s prosecutor’s office statement added that the French National Office for Minors has reported to the prosecutor’s office the “near absence of response” from Telegram to court requests concerning offenses that include trafficking, online hate speech, and pedophilia crimes.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

and he's gone in 3 ..... 2 .....

 

[Oystein]

Some opinions:

Official Russia is enraged - how could the French go after free speech and put legal pressure on Telegram?? All the while forgetting that Russia put legal pressure on Telegram before (as well as Durov's previous project, VKontakte, which is essentially Russian state-controlled media now).
It strikes me as obvious that a Western action that Russia protests loudly is probably a good and noble and necessary endeavour.

Estonian YouTuber Artur Rehi, who daily comments on the Ukraine war, speculates that the French want to crack open Telegram because Wagner commanders and troops use it in their West African wars, which France is losing. He also gloats that the fear is running high among Russian users, particularly military types, that the West and Ukraine will soon read all their postings.

As for using a borrowed car for a crime: The owner of the car may not be immediately responsible for the crime. But once a judge has ordered him to reveal the identity of the borrower, and to allow police to observe the car to prevent future crimes, AND the owner refuses, AND more crimes are committed, then the owner surely has become complicit - by knowingly allowing criminals to use his property for criming.

I think that posters whose only knowledge of the entire case consists of "I hate France and absolutely everything out of France, so surely what they do has to be bad bad bad" are showing their bias a little too transparently. They are more intelligent than that. I am a bit disappointed at the low level of argument in this thread.

Durov had arrived from Azerbaijan when he was arrested at a French airport. Another person who had been in Azerbaijan at the same time was - Vladimir Putin. So speculations are there (albeit denied by Durov and his team) that the two met.
Is that a coincidence? (Alert: Conspiratorial Thinking may cross the road from here onward!) Perhaps the French have intelligence on what transpired in those talks and considered Durov a national security threat? Or perhaps Durov didn't get out of Putin what he had hoped, and now enacts his plan B - cooperate with the French? With the criminal procedings being a cover?

5 million bond for a billionaire is like $50 bond for a single mother workiung hard to make ends meet - could be a rounding error on the car loan. Surely, Durov can use Telegram safely now to procure an exit from France without trouble. Where could he go? Back to Russia? Surely the UAE, where he resides. I suspect all of the EU would be off-limits. Would the USA act on an international arrest warrant if the French were to issue one?

 

[dirtywick]

Telegram is not exlcusively for whtie suprmacists the way Rumble and Kick are. That's why it is popular in places like Ukraine. The founder is Russian, but he doesn't seem to care who is using the platform and has actually come into conflict with Putin regarding censorship and tracking.

Its popular among the homelab and self hosting crowd because it has easy to configure bots that can send alerts and updates regarding said services. I use it myself for that.

As for teh sepcific charges...I dunno. I am not familiar enough with the French legal system or this case in aprticualr to render an informed opinion. Not that such a deficiancy prevents some folks around here.

for clarity, i said alt right, which while there's a lot of overlap on a venn diagram there it's not really the same. i don't think any of them are exclusively for white supremacists. but, those are their preferred platforms since there's very little moderation and their political messages are prevalent. those platforms are also utilized by a lot of other shady characters for the same reason.

anyway, it's just an interesting observation of mine. it wasn't that long ago the right wanted to bust up big tech platforms, like facebook or twitter, on similar grounds

 

[The Great Zaganza]

It would be more accurate to say that they wanted to bully big tech platforms to do what they want.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

...
As for using a borrowed car for a crime: The owner of the car may not be immediately responsible for the crime. But once a judge has ordered him to reveal the identity of the borrower, and to allow police to observe the car to prevent future crimes, AND the owner refuses, AND more crimes are committed, then the owner surely has become complicit - by knowingly allowing criminals to use his property for criming.

Has a court ordered Durov to provide information which they know he has and is refusing to reveal?