Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
The prevailing narrative (from H56, halfordlaes, The Atheist et al) is that all Palestinians and Syrians are innocent, and all Israelis are guilty.How many innocent Syrians are hanging around military facilities?
The prevailing narrative (from H56, halfordlaes, The Atheist et al) is that all Palestinians and Syrians are innocent, and all Israelis are guilty.How many innocent Syrians are hanging around military facilities?
No. As I have repeated over and over, I support the existence of Israel, and I support that Israel defends itself. But there is very little of Israeli politics today that I support: it is not so that every problem has a military solution, and I think that opening up a new front, and showing Syrians that Israel is an enemy is the best way to peace.Is this your famous "support for Israel" we've been hearing so much about?
Well, since none of those live in a Democracy, and Israeli do, yes: they are far more culpable.The prevailing narrative (from H56, halfordlaes, The Atheist et al) is that all Palestinians and Syrians are innocent, and all Israelis are guilty.
"...showing Syrians that Israel is an enemy..." -- Are you indicating that Syrians had never previously seen Israel as their enemy? That claim is unsustainable, steenk.
"Facilitating help"? Israel will facilitate it. AbuMohammed understands that very well. He knows that Syria can benefit tremendously with a peace treaty similar to those which currently exist with two former enemies (Egypt and Jordan).
The most important thing right now for Israel is to eliminate the Iran-Lebanon connection.
By closing the weapons-smuggling routes through Syrian territory, and marginalizing the Hezbollah cadres in both Syria and Lebanon, this entire situation is looking much better for Israel today than it was a month ago.
Both Syria and Lebanon will be better off without the Iranians.
No, I am indicating that showing possible disregard of Syrian lives will not endear them to Israel. I say “possible” because I don’t know if they did. If it turns out that only few Syrians are killed, then Israel has not done much wrong (I still think that a friendly attitude would have been wiser)."...showing Syrians that Israel is an enemy..." -- Are you indicating that Syrians had never previously seen Israel as their enemy? That claim is unsustainable, steenk.
That is well possible. In fact, I think that the new rulers (inasmuch as they control as much as we think) will not forget how Iran helped the dictator."Facilitating help"? Israel will facilitate it. AbuMohammed understands that very well. He knows that Syria can benefit tremendously with a peace treaty similar to those which currently exist with two former enemies (Egypt and Jordan).
Quite true. Just don’t try put them in a position where they think that despite Iran’s previous position, they are still the enemy’s enemy, and therefore a “friend”.Both Syria and Lebanon will be better off without the Iranians.
Then perhaps Israel should have reached out to the new government rather than jumping straight to 500+ bombing raids, occupation of more Syrian territory, and the threat of settlements in those new areas.
Obviously the old government was hostile to Israel. But this is the new government that fought to overthrow the old anti-Israeli government. Of course people within this government were anti-Israeli in the past, but claim moderation now. But rather than waiting to see if that panned out, Israel jumped straight into 500+ bombing raids.
You think the dyed in the wool death to Israel types are going to wait until the new peace and love Syrian government have sorted out their foreign policy before they take these weapons? You think they're not going to use these weapons no matter what the new peace and love Syrian governments foreign policy is? Is your family in range of these weapons?
I'm not talking about the new Syrian government that's totes going to be all sweetness and light - I'm talking about the dyed in the wool Jihadi types who will be using this opportunity while the security forces have fled to get their hands on some shiny new toys. Just the amount of MANPADS that will have gone missing is going to make commercial flight very interesting. "Thank You Israel for not letting it get worse" would be the appropriate thing to sayJesus, lighten up. Israel didn't even give them time to say or do anything before the bombs started flying. That's all people are saying. The best way to show you want to cooperate with a new government isn't generally to bomb the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ ◊◊◊◊ out of them right out of the gate. Perhaps, and I'm not a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ doctor here, but a conversation first would have been ok? Did it look like the new government was going to be using them overnight? They just got done with a long ass war and you think the first thing they want to do is pick a fight with Israel before they even sit down?
I don't have a lot invested in this because I don't have a lot of knowledge about it but so far between the two sides I see here there is no common ground. No wonder it's such a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ mess over there.
And so all Americans are guilty, because of Iraq? All Russians, who support Putin in great numbers, are not guilty, because Russia is only a democracy in name? Are you actually saying it's OK to attack civilian populations in a democracy, as legitimate military targets?Well, since none of those live in a Democracy, and Israeli do, yes: they are far more culpable.
This is an outrageous falsehood. These blatant lies do you no credit at all.But I wouldn’t expect anything else from you than unwavering support of whatever Israel does, to the point that one can’t even question if whatever they do is the best.
I never said that this was a crime, I only asked if it was wise to generate more hatred.
I cunningly twisted your words, or I misunderstood what you said? Your instant assumption of malice is telling, you know.And to take up your argument from the other thread, I am speaking about hatred of Israel, not of me personally, as you cunningly twisted my words.
So what do you criticize about Israel’s politics against its neighbours? You constantly challenge my assertion that I am not against Israel, while claiming that you are not partisan yourself.This is an outrageous falsehood. These blatant lies do you no credit at all.
Non sequitur, but over time, I have stopped expecting anything else.And I asked you if constantly repeating that Israel should not exist would generate or lessen the amount of hatred. You ran from this question, and are still running.
Pot, meet Kettle. But I admit, the word “cunningly” was used sarcastically. Why shouldn’t I assume assume malice when you repeatedly asks me a question that is intended to bring me in trouble no matter if I say yes, no, or I don’t know.I cunningly twisted your words, or I misunderstood what you said? Your instant assumption of malice is telling, you know.
Perhaps if you read my posts, you would know what I say in my posts.So what do you criticize about Israel’s politics against its neighbours? You constantly challenge my assertion that I am not against Israel, while claiming that you are not partisan yourself.
The question has no malice in it at all. Zero. I am asking you to consider the consequences of your actions, that is all. That you seem to insistent that to do such a thing is going to cause you trouble should, I suggest, make you think more about those actions and their consequences, not to angrily dismiss the idea that they should even be considered. What we do and say affects those around us. In a highly-charged subject such as this, we need to be even more careful. This is all I am saying, and I fail to find even a scintilla of malice in that thought.Non sequitur, but over time, I have stopped expecting anything else.
Pot, meet Kettle. But I admit, the word “cunningly” was used sarcastically. Why shouldn’t I assume assume malice when you repeatedly asks me a question that is intended to bring me in trouble no matter if I say yes, no, or I don’t know.
Yes, that is OK. Are you sure you are not contributing to the hate against Israel with this criticism?Perhaps if you read my posts, you would know what I say in my posts.
I have consistently criticised Netanyahu, for years, and also the right-wing religious extremists in his government. I have criticised the excessive response by the IDF in Gaza. I have objected to the West Bank settlements.
OK?
Can you not see that there is a world of difference between criticising some of the politicians and policies of a country, and saying that country has no right to exist?Yes, that is OK. Are you sure you are not contributing to the hate against Israel with this criticism?
Never mind, don’t answer it. I don’t find this part of the discussion is leading to something valuable.
I have said over and over that I support Israel’s right to exist, even though it was wrong to create Israel in the first place. How you can twist this into meaning that I say the opposite is beyond me.Can you not see that there is a world of difference between criticising some of the politicians and policies of a country, and saying that country has no right to exist?
Because it's not clear who we're even dealing with yet. Sort that out before you start trying to open up any trade.Why hasn't the world dropped the various sanctions on Syria yet?
I don't think that's good plan. I think the west should assume they are what they say they are until proven otherwise. We can always reapply the sections, in the meantime, they just cause suffering for the average folk of Syria. Honestly that generally true of all but very targeted sanctions.Because it's not clear who we're even dealing with yet. Sort that out before you start trying to open up any trade.
No, it's not beyond you: you just don't want to address the glaring contradiction in your stance here, and so are trying to bluster your way out of it.I have said over and over that I support Israel’s right to exist, even though it was wrong to create Israel in the first place. How you can twist this into meaning that I say the opposite is beyond me.
They aren't opposite. Whether or not you think Israel should have been created, the fact is that it was. And getting rid of it now is a fundamentally different proposition than not having created it in the first place.No, it's not beyond you: you just don't want to address the glaring contradiction in your stance here, and so are trying to bluster your way out of it.
How do you reconcile these two opposite beliefs?
People taking responsibility for the actions of the government they elected would be hell on earth for you?And so all Americans are guilty, because of Iraq? All Russians, who support Putin in great numbers, are not guilty, because Russia is only a democracy in name? Are you actually saying it's OK to attack civilian populations in a democracy, as legitimate military targets?
I can only hope the world never works in the way you want it to, because it would be hell on earth.
Not what I said.People taking responsibility for the actions of the government they elected would be hell on earth for you?
Schrodinger's State: it should, and should not exist, simultaneously.They aren't opposite. Whether or not you think Israel should have been created, the fact is that it was. And getting rid of it now is a fundamentally different proposition than not having created it in the first place.
Then rephrase your post, because as it stands, that's Exactly what it said.Not what I said.
What is it with Team Hamas and shifitng the goalposts?
What I said was that people should not be considered military targets because of the actions of their governments.
But you knew that.
That is true, but I don’t think that Israel should be gotten rid of. As I have often said, that would be trying correct a wrong with another wrong: it will only lead to more misery, and possibly more indictments at the ICJ.They aren't opposite. Whether or not you think Israel should have been created, the fact is that it was. And getting rid of it now is a fundamentally different proposition than not having created it in the first place.
Well, as has been pointed out, Syria was not exactly a friend of Israel before, and the new regime declares moderation, but has a history of extremism, which is not encouraging.Israel is working on getting rid of Israel by alienating friends and making enemies as fast as it can.
Israel is in the business of eliminating threats. As fast as it can.Israel is working on getting rid of Israel by alienating friends and making enemies as fast as it can.
I would have. This is not only the easiest time for Israel to take out all those weapons, it's also the time when doing so will create the fewest Syrian casualties.But still, I wouldn’t have started a bombing campaign as my first interaction with a new regime.
Bwhahahahahaha!But Israel unprovoked attacking Syria is a total breach of international law and norms, showing once again that Israel is not even thinking about international commitments.
That makes it unqualified to enter into agreements with.
I've got some Irish heritage, and there's much to be proud of in Irish history. But their relationship with Jews has always been one of their more shameful sides. This is the country which sent condolences for Hitler's death, after all. And they have a bit of a spotty record in regards to supporting terrorism.I do notice that the Irish, (no friends to begin with) are getting all worked-up (and lying about what Israel is accomplishing).
Quite.I would have. This is not only the easiest time for Israel to take out all those weapons, it's also the time when doing so will create the fewest Syrian casualties.
Funny thing there, my father spent his youth in Ireland. After 50 or so years of in the US he went back and was surprised to find how anti-semitic they were. When I went, I didn't really notice it but I didn't talk politics much or read the local paper. Anecdote I know but I found it interesting.Israel is in the business of eliminating threats. As fast as it can.
If that bothers people, too bad.
I do notice that the Irish, (no friends to begin with) are getting all worked-up (and lying about what Israel is accomplishing).
"Ireland has crossed every red line in its relations with Israel," Israel's FM said.
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Irish president accuses Israel of 'deep slander' over antisemitism allegations
Higgins claimed that Netanyahu's characterization of Ireland as being antisemitic was part of a larger trend to damage Ireland.www.jpost.com
While the Paraguayan reaction is completely the opposite.
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Paraguay’s Bold Move: Jerusalem Embassy Opens Amid Strengthened Ties With Israel - The Media Line
In an exclusive interview with The Media Line, […]themedialine.org
Israel is under no illusions regarding the lack of support from various quarters.
Well, as has been pointed out, Syria was not exactly a friend of Israel before, and the new regime declares moderation, but has a history of extremism, which is not encouraging.
Jolani’s claim of being nationalistic also
promises trouble over Golan.But still, I wouldn’t have started a bombing campaign as my first interaction with a new regime.
Has there been any Syrian reaction to the bombings? Journalists are swarming into Syria now, so it should not be impossible to gauge the new position.