Reformed Offlian
Graduate Poster
While you're trying to think, can you think of a case where the police framed somebody for murder because they were being sued? Is that really a thing that happens?
Steven Avery: Making of a Murderer Part 2
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While you're trying to think, can you think of a case where the police framed somebody for murder because they were being sued? Is that really a thing that happens?
It is called noble cause corruption.
Arthur Thomas in New Zealand was a victim for example. It is important for the prosecutors to get off the horse and carry it across the finish line in some difficult cases.
In this one Brendan Dassey and Steven Avery had separate trials where there are irreconcilable discrepancies. The courts are composed of non scientific actors, disaster.
Arthur Thomas in New Zealand was a victim for example. It is important for the prosecutors to get off the horse and carry it across the finish line in some difficult cases.
In this one Brendan Dassey and Steven Avery had separate trials where there are irreconcilable discrepancies. The courts are composed of non scientific actors, disaster.
To better answer the question, I think tribal alliances would love Steven Avery to be the fortuitous homicidal maniac, but this begs the question. Why so obviously head back to jail in preference to the lazy 30 million.
He settled for 400k when charged to defend the rap.
Reformed Offlian
Graduate Poster
That sounded like a "no".
Chris_Halkides
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Not so long ago and not so far away
Let me summarize portions of the Avery/Dassey threads. Gage County Nebraska, which faced bankruptcy over the $28 million payout to the Beatrice Six, was brought up. How bankruptcy might affect pensions is discussed with respect to cities and towns here. But the larger issue is whether Manitowoc should have been involved in the investigation, to which the answer is a clear "no," owing to its conflict of interest. In the Penny Beerntsen case LE in Manitowoc committed "egregious misconduct," according to Michael Griesbach in an article published by The Isthmus. In the Halbach case, LE interrogated Brendan Dassey. Saul Kassin wrote, "Dassey’s final narrative was riddled with inconsistencies and factual errors. Moreover, the detectives had fed him information through a series of hints and leading questions." Ken Kratz committed professional misconduct in more than one way, according to an affidavit from Bennett Gershman. LE's handling of Ms. Halbach's remains was not better than incompetent. To the best of my recollection citations to each of the points above were given. Repeating the words of unethical and incompetent members of LE is not skepticism but its exact opposite; conspiracies and conspiracy theories are not the same thing.
This brings me to Bobby Dassey. For those interested in exploring the possibility that he is responsible for Ms. Halbach's murder, I suggest reading John Ferak's book Wrecking Crew. Mr. Ferak also explored the possibility that Scott Tadych helped Bobby Dassey frame Mr. Avery.
Let me summarize portions of the Avery/Dassey threads. Gage County Nebraska, which faced bankruptcy over the $28 million payout to the Beatrice Six, was brought up. How bankruptcy might affect pensions is discussed with respect to cities and towns here. But the larger issue is whether Manitowoc should have been involved in the investigation, to which the answer is a clear "no," owing to its conflict of interest. In the Penny Beerntsen case LE in Manitowoc committed "egregious misconduct," according to Michael Griesbach in an article published by The Isthmus. In the Halbach case, LE interrogated Brendan Dassey. Saul Kassin wrote, "Dassey’s final narrative was riddled with inconsistencies and factual errors. Moreover, the detectives had fed him information through a series of hints and leading questions." Ken Kratz committed professional misconduct in more than one way, according to an affidavit from Bennett Gershman. LE's handling of Ms. Halbach's remains was not better than incompetent. To the best of my recollection citations to each of the points above were given. Repeating the words of unethical and incompetent members of LE is not skepticism but its exact opposite; conspiracies and conspiracy theories are not the same thing.
This brings me to Bobby Dassey. For those interested in exploring the possibility that he is responsible for Ms. Halbach's murder, I suggest reading John Ferak's book Wrecking Crew. Mr. Ferak also explored the possibility that Scott Tadych helped Bobby Dassey frame Mr. Avery.
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Reformed Offlian
Graduate Poster
Do *you* know of any cases where LE responded to being sued by framing the plaintiff for murder?
Chris_Halkides
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two for the price of one
However, (assuming for the sake of argument that a guilty Bobby Dassey started the process of framing Mr. Avery) Manitowoc LE had two possible reasons to continue the frame-up or at least not to follow any evidence pointing to other individuals. One is financial. Manitowoc County is larger than Gage County (which in the most recent news report that I could find is moving toward Chapter 9), but not by that much; Manitowoc Country might have gone bankrupt. Two is that at least one member of LE is on record as still pointing a finger at Mr. Avery for the rape of Penny Beerntsen, as contrary to fact as such a position is. If one believed that to be true, then it is easy to rationalize behavior that helps along his conviction in a different case. By behavior I mean anything that falls along the continuum of biased investigation to malfeasance. Framing Avery for another crime might qualify as an example of "noble cause corruption."
No, I don't. Nor do I know of any 6'7" member of law enforcement who framed a gay sumo wrestler for arson. In other words, your question is too specific to have much value.
However, (assuming for the sake of argument that a guilty Bobby Dassey started the process of framing Mr. Avery) Manitowoc LE had two possible reasons to continue the frame-up or at least not to follow any evidence pointing to other individuals. One is financial. Manitowoc County is larger than Gage County (which in the most recent news report that I could find is moving toward Chapter 9), but not by that much; Manitowoc Country might have gone bankrupt. Two is that at least one member of LE is on record as still pointing a finger at Mr. Avery for the rape of Penny Beerntsen, as contrary to fact as such a position is. If one believed that to be true, then it is easy to rationalize behavior that helps along his conviction in a different case. By behavior I mean anything that falls along the continuum of biased investigation to malfeasance. Framing Avery for another crime might qualify as an example of "noble cause corruption."
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Reformed Offlian
Graduate Poster
Cute counter-example, but not on-point. Samson (and apparently you) have insinuated that Manitowouc LE framed Avery *because* he was suing them. I did not add any degree of specificity Samson had not already introduced as salient to the scenario he was proposing. Nor did I ask for details that would be hard to find examples of, if they actually existed. I’m guessing that LE jurisdictions and agencies get sued from time to time, and that mention of such would tend to find its way into public record.
If Samson had argued something like: “LE framed Avery because the arresting officer was 6’7” and Avery was a gay sumo wrestler”, then it would indeed be perfectly reasonable to ask the exact question in your attempted parody. The details, while arbitrarily specific, would be exactly those ones the claimant identified as relevant. If those details are extraneous, why were they brought up? If examples that would support the implied generalization are too obscure to be easily found, then on what basis was that generalization constructed in the first place?
All that said, you did actually answer my question, so well done, I guess.
Which leaves us with the question: why is it then reasonable to speculate that LE would have responded in such a way in this case, given that it doesn’t seem to be a thing that happens?
As noted above, what is still missing from all this is a compelling reason to think that these motives would actually lead to the alleged behavior. Hence my original question.
Chris_Halkides
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Egregious misconduct
There is serial misconduct within LE generally and within forensic science (my area of interest) more specifically. Joyce Gilchrist, Fred Zain, and David Kofoed (the subject of a different book by John Freak) are three examples. But there are forensically-linked wrongful convictions that arise even without bad apples, either because of forensic fraud or forensic misadventure (and bad forensics is only one of several causes of wrongful convictions). Whatever the motive, bad conduct happens.*
Suppose for a moment that no suit were filed, and no member of LE had implied that Avery were guilty of the 1985 rape. The finding of Ms. Halbach's key, to take just one example, would still be suspicious. In other words, I am less concerned with discerning the motives of Manitowoc LE (among other branches of government) than I am with its manifold misbehaviors themselves. Given their record of "egregious misconduct," why should you or anyone else believe them? This is not a rhetorical question.
In passing, let me quote Kathleen Zellner, "We're not saying the cops planted it; we're saying the killer planted the blood." Although I think that Bobby Dassey is as plausible a suspect as Steven Avery, I don't have any views on the case that could not be changed with more information.
*It is plausible some misconduct happens because of a belief that the defendant is guilty of the crime that he or she is charged with, or guilty of another crime.
There is serial misconduct within LE generally and within forensic science (my area of interest) more specifically. Joyce Gilchrist, Fred Zain, and David Kofoed (the subject of a different book by John Freak) are three examples. But there are forensically-linked wrongful convictions that arise even without bad apples, either because of forensic fraud or forensic misadventure (and bad forensics is only one of several causes of wrongful convictions). Whatever the motive, bad conduct happens.*
Suppose for a moment that no suit were filed, and no member of LE had implied that Avery were guilty of the 1985 rape. The finding of Ms. Halbach's key, to take just one example, would still be suspicious. In other words, I am less concerned with discerning the motives of Manitowoc LE (among other branches of government) than I am with its manifold misbehaviors themselves. Given their record of "egregious misconduct," why should you or anyone else believe them? This is not a rhetorical question.
In passing, let me quote Kathleen Zellner, "We're not saying the cops planted it; we're saying the killer planted the blood." Although I think that Bobby Dassey is as plausible a suspect as Steven Avery, I don't have any views on the case that could not be changed with more information.
*It is plausible some misconduct happens because of a belief that the defendant is guilty of the crime that he or she is charged with, or guilty of another crime.
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Reformed Offlian
Graduate Poster
Was this directed at me? The question we were discussing was not whether Manitowoc LE is generally trustworthy, but whether there is any reason to buy the proposition that they would frame Avery for murder because he was suing them. Even if I concede for argument's sake that they are untrustworthy, it does not make that proposition any more plausible. This is a common conspiracy theorist ploy: the Federal government sometimes lies, therefore it makes perfect sense that they faked the moon landings.
Reformed Offlian
Graduate Poster
If the cops aren't the ones who planted the evidence, why did we just waste so much time discussing their motives for framing Avery?
The possible blood planting was that topic, the cops found the car key on about the third search. This is considered to be planted evidence, irrespective of Avery guilt.
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Chris_Halkides
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conspiracy theories and possible wrongful convictions
Let me address the issue of conspiracy theories for a moment. It is a difficult term to define, but somewhere I saw an argument along the lines that conspiracy theories were [sometimes?] unprecedented events. Maybe this is where your argument is heading. My counterargument is that forensic misconduct is well precedented (Google Annie Dookhan or Sonja Farak along with the names that I already provided). Non-forensic misconduct is another reason for wrongful convictions (link1 and link2).
My second argument is that people who suggest that a given conviction is a wrongful one are commonly charged with being conspiracy theorists. One can see an example of this tiresome phenomenon in the early Knox/Sollecito threads here at ISF. And yet the pro-guilt people were dead wrong in that instance.
Your argument about moon landings is only marginally relevant. If the government lied or misrepresented information about moon landings, then I would not trust them about moon landings but not necessarily about other things. My counterargument is that Manitowoc LE was partially responsible for developing the evidence against Avery and Brendan Dassey. I would trust the weather reports from Manitowoc County, but their evidence against Avery not so much. Of course other branches of LE had a role in this case, but that is a subject for another comment.
The question was directed at you but also at other participants in this thread. The question of whether a hypothetical framing was motivated by the suit is only modestly interesting; I provided the example of Gage County, NE to show plausibility, but now I am almost sorry that I did. Not every wrongful convictiont culminates in a suit (link); some exonerees move to new jurisdictions. Therefore, what may have happened with respect to Mr. Avery is likely to be a rare occurrence in my estimation, possibly an unprecedented one.
Let me address the issue of conspiracy theories for a moment. It is a difficult term to define, but somewhere I saw an argument along the lines that conspiracy theories were [sometimes?] unprecedented events. Maybe this is where your argument is heading. My counterargument is that forensic misconduct is well precedented (Google Annie Dookhan or Sonja Farak along with the names that I already provided). Non-forensic misconduct is another reason for wrongful convictions (link1 and link2).
My second argument is that people who suggest that a given conviction is a wrongful one are commonly charged with being conspiracy theorists. One can see an example of this tiresome phenomenon in the early Knox/Sollecito threads here at ISF. And yet the pro-guilt people were dead wrong in that instance.
Your argument about moon landings is only marginally relevant. If the government lied or misrepresented information about moon landings, then I would not trust them about moon landings but not necessarily about other things. My counterargument is that Manitowoc LE was partially responsible for developing the evidence against Avery and Brendan Dassey. I would trust the weather reports from Manitowoc County, but their evidence against Avery not so much. Of course other branches of LE had a role in this case, but that is a subject for another comment.
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Chris_Halkides
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It is only fitting
Do you know of any instances in which Manitowoc LE fitted someone up for a serious crime?
Chris_Halkides
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more on Kratz
Dean Strong was quoted: “We live in a country in which every time the police department or a prosecutor wants to issue a press release or hold a press conference, the overwhelming majority of media outlets treat what the police or prosecutors say as received wisdom. As if it came down on tablets, from the mount,” Strang told me. “Kratz’s March 2, 2006, press conference turned out to be factually unsupportable, factually refuted by the evidence.... And yet, for the 10 months preceding his trial, that was accepted and repeated by the media as the truth about what happened.”
Dean Strong was quoted: “We live in a country in which every time the police department or a prosecutor wants to issue a press release or hold a press conference, the overwhelming majority of media outlets treat what the police or prosecutors say as received wisdom. As if it came down on tablets, from the mount,” Strang told me. “Kratz’s March 2, 2006, press conference turned out to be factually unsupportable, factually refuted by the evidence.... And yet, for the 10 months preceding his trial, that was accepted and repeated by the media as the truth about what happened.”
Following conviction and the stages of appeal process, the people engage in argument from incredulity when being confronted with facts gleaned from research.
"You expect us to believe all these people are wrong and you are right?"
Thus the wheels of Justice grind.
"You expect us to believe all these people are wrong and you are right?"
Thus the wheels of Justice grind.
The Common Potato
Muse
I read both a year or two ago and re-read Failure of Justice last month. In both cases, law enforcement was slapdash, to put it mildly; the checks and balances, and possibly alternative suspects, were simply ignored. It's this that gives rise to the doubtful convictions.
The series Mind Over Murder - about the Beatrice Six - was on Sky TV (I think) a few weeks ago and it probably still available.
Thought to check in on news feed and this is current
https://patch.com/wisconsin/across-...ase-new-witness-saw-bobby-dassey-halbach-rav4
It seems it could only be Bobby Dassey or Steven by now.
I always wonder though why a murderer would drive around in the victim's car.
David Wayne Tamihere did this, then did 20 years but it turns out he was innocent.
https://patch.com/wisconsin/across-...ase-new-witness-saw-bobby-dassey-halbach-rav4
It seems it could only be Bobby Dassey or Steven by now.
I always wonder though why a murderer would drive around in the victim's car.
David Wayne Tamihere did this, then did 20 years but it turns out he was innocent.
Chris_Halkides
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affidavit of Thomas Buresh
There was someone else in the RAV besides Bobby Dassey.
"During the time I was incarcerated, I told a Brown County detective that I had information about the Halbach murder but was ignored and told 'that I was already in enough trouble' and 'to shut up," Friday's affidavit of [Thomas] Buresh revealed.
There was someone else in the RAV besides Bobby Dassey.
Working from memory the car would have been driven once in relocating to the wrecking yard, to a spot empty prior, as shown by aerial footage.
Thus not wreckless asking to be caught as in David Tamihere, who unknowingly drove for days, the car of two murdered people.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
Impressive memory, but keeping his lights on high beam to see who was inside the vehicle should be illegal.
Does that mean Dassey is innocent too, or...
Still trying to figure out someone could not recognize a passenger being blinded by his headlights, and yet be 100% sure it was not Avery a year later when they had never met him. Will be interesting to see what his description of the mystery passenger is.
Or a conspiracy of 3? Might explain a lot.