Merged SpaceX’s Starship Rocket Explodes After Launch/Starship hop

Technically everything is. My point is that SpaceX's ultimate goal is the pipedream of a megalomaniac. They are successful with LEO satellites, but I'm willing to bet 10's of dollars that they will not put a (living) human being on the Moon let alone on Mars in neither mine or Musk's lifetime. "Move fast and break stuff" doesn't work if it ends in gigantic explosions every time. Besides, Musk just promises futuristic stuff all the time and none of it pans out, so color me skeptical re: the whole Starship/Mars thing. I'm not even doubting his engineers are some of the best but they may be facing an impossible task.
Musk has said that they will initially send robots. If that is successful the robots could make Mars livable for humans. It's definitely a long shot, but the important thing is the journey - ie. the tech that is developed which will be useful in other areas. Tesla is developing robots with actual (AI) brains that are needed for a mission like this but also will be useful back here on Earth. It's taken long enough. We should have had robots years ago but the technology wasn't there yet. Without 'megalomaniac pipe dreams' we might never get there. You may argue that wouldn't be a bad thing, but it's 2025 dammit and I want my robot!

Assuming we don't stuff the planet and cause civilization to collapse, we will be going to Mars eventually. We put men on the Moon in 1969, but since then the progress has been glacial. Perhaps if we hadn't been fighting endless wars over fear of the Other and cooperated instead, Mars could have been a done deal by now.

BTW Musk isn't the only one working towards manned Mars missions.

Humans to Mars: NASA
NASA is advancing many technologies to send astronauts to Mars as early as the 2030s. Here are six things we are working on right now to make future human missions to the Red Planet possible...
 
Yet another fuel leak is supposed to be the cause of this failure. The building the commentary was from was shaking during the launch. You can imagine what is happening inside Starship. Their telemetary must include how violently the Starship is being shaken and design accordingly.
 
as engineers have said before, it seems that Starship is build way too close to the point of failure, where everything has to go just right to work, with basically no margin of error.
Similar to the Titanic not having enough lifeboats because they would never be needed, obviously.
 
The other question is how often the caught boosters are reused and how much money is being saved by the whole process.
As Jay said from the viewpoint of the customers it is the reliability of launches and the cost that are important. How SpaceX achieves that is relatively unimportant to customers.

The issue is with it being a privately owned company all we know is that at the moment as a business it is not profitable. (Because it has to keep raising additional funds.) It could be that parts of the business are profitable but that isn't enough to fund the R&D budget.

One thing I do find interesting from a business perspective is that the world's richest man doesn't fund the business.
 
Why would we go to Mars?
Does it contain unobtainiun?
Serious answer: To prove that we can.

A lot of people (including Musk) believe that the long-term future of humanity is going to be in space and on other planets. Becoming a multiplanetary civilisation is the goal - there are resources, yes, but there is also a lot of science to be done there too. And if the planet-killer asteroid does one day come along, you'd better hope we're on other planets when it hits.
 
Serious answer: To prove that we can.

A lot of people (including Musk) believe that the long-term future of humanity is going to be in space and on other planets. Becoming a multiplanetary civilisation is the goal - there are resources, yes, but there is also a lot of science to be done there too. And if the planet-killer asteroid does one day come along, you'd better hope we're on other planets when it hits.
the "backup after asteroid" idea stands on very weak limbs: an asteroid on Mars would be far more devastating than on Earth, and it is statistically far more likely to happen. If you want a backup, Mars is not your location.
A Deep Sea Colony would be easier, cheaper, safer and better situated to come to the aid of an Earth devastated by an asteroid than one on another planet. Even an orbital base would be better than Mars in terms of having eggs in another basket.

Science I grant you, but obviously there is an effectiveness question.
 
Elon Musk
@Elonmusk
Starship made it to the scheduled ship engine cutoff, so big improvement over last flight! Also, no significant loss of heat shield tiles during ascent.

Leaks caused loss of main tank pressure during the coast and re-entry phase. Lot of good data to review.

Launch cadence for next 3 flights will be faster, at approximately 1 every 3 to 4 weeks.
 
I am still ... and getting even more ... concerned about Starship becoming man-rated. It doesn't appear that there was any redundancy in the attitude control system. If there were people on-board and the ship lost attitude control, what would happen? They would buckle themselves in and hope that the spacecraft just happens to align itself correctly to survive rentry?

Maybe they plan to build redundancy in later. But it seems to me that is something that needs to be an early part of the design.

And with Starship being a single large, inseparable entity, almost everything has to work correctly all the time for the vehicle and its occupants to survive. If a Falcon 9 fails during ascent, the Dragon capsule can separate and return safely on its own. If the upper stage or trunk fails in orbit, the Dragon capsule can orient itself for a safe re-entry. I don't see that the Starship has any contingency capabilities like those.

Maybe SpaceX has plans to address these issues, but I am not aware of them.

OTOH, the ability to renter Earth's atmosphere is not, as I understand it, a requirement for Starship during NASA's planned moon landing. And it wouldn't be crewed during ascent from Earth. So, perhaps SpaceX should be concentrating on the more immediate, and obtainable, goals defined in their contract with NASA.
 
Well, Flight 9 ended pretty spectacularly.

It launched successfully with a pre-used booster, but that was about the only success. The booster did not survive re-entry. The payload bay doors failed to open. Starship itself started tumbling soon after and telemetry was lost at about T+0:48.

Some really spectacular shots from the hull mounted cameras of the ship tumbling though.

I should say, this was the first time they've re-used a Starship booster, so that was a milestone, of sorts.


They never intended to save the booster for this flight.

Was it attempted (even if not intended)?

Because for me, that would be a big thing if they could save a re-used booster.

That is surely part of the point of the whole endeavour.
 
Was it attempted (even if not intended)?

Because for me, that would be a big thing if they could save a re-used booster.

That is surely part of the point of the whole endeavour.
They were trying a new landing manouver designed to save fuel. While they didn't intend to catch it but it turns out it blew up before it did the fake landing anyway. The different angle of landing must have put too much strain on the structure.
 
Serious answer: To prove that we can.

A lot of people (including Musk) believe that the long-term future of humanity is going to be in space and on other planets. Becoming a multiplanetary civilisation is the goal - there are resources, yes, but there is also a lot of science to be done there too. And if the planet-killer asteroid does one day come along, you'd better hope we're on other planets when it hits.
The problem with this idea is that the vast majority of humans will still be on this planet when the planet killing asteroid (or other disaster) comes along. It's very unlikely that you or I or any of our friends and family or their descendants will escape this catastrophe. Why should we care about "humanity". It's humans that matter. We should be trying to improve life for actual humans rather than the abstract concept that is "humanity".
 
I'm not. It seems increasingly likely that it's not going to happen.

At this point, I would only give 50-50 odds that Starship will ever put a useful cargo into orbit.

I think you're being generous. But I also think that lots and lots of really good R&D, technical knowledge and usable tech will come out of this. Probably to be used by whoever buys up the shattered remnants of spacex for pennies on the pound once it goes belly up.
 
Similar to the Titanic not having enough lifeboats because they would never be needed, obviously.
Off-topic nitpick. Titanic wasn't shorted on lifeboats because the ship was thought to be unsinkable. Because the ship plied ordinary trade routes, it was thought that other ships would never be too far away and could arrive at a sinking ship in plenty of time. The boats were just to ferry passengers from one liner to another. The stricken ship merely had to stay afloat long enough to do that, and then it could sink. The notion of disembarking the entire ship's company into lifeboats all at once wasn't really considered a viable or survivable scenario back then.
 
They were trying a new landing manouver designed to save fuel. While they didn't intend to catch it but it turns out it blew up before it did the fake landing anyway. The different angle of landing must have put too much strain on the structure.
I guess they found out what they wanted to know.

I am still ... and getting even more ... concerned about Starship becoming man-rated.
* * *
Maybe they plan to build redundancy in later. But it seems to me that is something that needs to be an early part of the design.
Best practice says so. Trying to retrofit the space-race Atlas and Titan vehicles for human flight was a nightmare. That's why the Saturns were all designed from the beginning to be human-rated. The thing about redundancy is that it adds systemic complexity to the design.
 
I guess they found out what they wanted to know.


Best practice says so. Trying to retrofit the space-race Atlas and Titan vehicles for human flight was a nightmare. That's why the Saturns were all designed from the beginning to be human-rated. The thing about redundancy is that it adds systemic complexity to the design.

And weight? I would guess? And I understand weight is proving to be a major issue with starship?
 
I'm not. It seems increasingly likely that it's not going to happen.

At this point, I would only give 50-50 odds that Starship will ever put a useful cargo into orbit.
They are quite likely to sort out issues with doors, and once they do, there will be cargo in orbit. I'd be surprised if they fail to do it next flight.
 
And weight? I would guess? And I understand weight is proving to be a major issue with starship?
Yes. Starship's dry mass keeps creeping upward. That happens with nearly every spaceship design. The Apollo lunar module kept acquiring mass until it exceeded the design constraints and had to be put on a diet. The mass-reduction exercise was legendary in the field, but in that case it was mostly reducing the mass of the agreed-upon components without materially changing the design. As noted, Starship's design philosophy seems to be reducing the operational margins as the result of design simplification.

Redundancy in a flight dynamics system means redundant tanks, jets, piping, wiring, and controllers. There is a tremendous urge to think, "We don't need all that; we'll just make the primary system inherently more reliable." That's just not how reliability has been heretofore achieved.

If you have a subsystem with three nines of reliability (probably of success, p ≥ 0.999), the rule of thumb says that adding another nine to that (p ≥ 0.9999) costs as much as the previous three nines combined. In contrast, a failover setup with two redundant subsystems, each with two nines (p ≥ 0.99) gives a reliability probably of 1 - [ (1-p)2 + Qc(2) ]. The basic term is just simple probability. If both systems have to fail to result in mission failure, then you get your desired p ≥ 0.9999, or four nines. The important point is that a two-nines system would be easier and cheaper to develop than a three-nines system. Once you've developed and tested it, the manufacturing cost is not necessarily the driving factor. It costs $10 billion to develop an airliner design, but it takes only a small fraction of that to build each unit.

The Qc(2) term is a complexity index function that represents the probability of failure in the redundancy itself, independent of the individual reliability of the redundant element. That's estimated from qualitative factors in the design. Perhaps there's some necessarily common part that could fail. Perhaps the interaction between the two systems has an emergent characteristic. Those can arise during nominal operation. Or one may arise at the moment of failover. Whatever, you have to include it in the estimate because making something more complex has a reliability cost, and you will eventually arrive at irreducible risk where adding more redundancy creates more problems than it solves.

And obviously you have a cost in mass. You can have another nine at the cost of more than twice the mass of a single system. Understanding what flavor of cost you can best sustain is the art of engineering.

Human-rated spaceships have typically taken a hybrid approach. The Apollo lunar module had a primary guidance system that was very capable and built according to robust principles. It also had a secondary guidance system that was smaller, stupider, simpler, and built entirely differently. Failover was simply a matter of flipping a switch. The space shuttle orbiter famously had five redundant AP-101 (later SP-101) computers. Four of them were programmed in one way, but the fifth ran a completely different software load that solved the same problems using different algorithms. These didn't operate in a failover configuration; they used voting logic. The math is different than for failover. But the point is that unless something has radically changed, you will typically get more bang for your buck with redundancy.
 
They are quite likely to sort out issues with doors, and once they do, there will be cargo in orbit. I'd be surprised if they fail to do it next flight.
I suspect that Starship could be profitable without being fully reusable. One flight could replace about twenty Falcon 9 flights deploying StarLink, for example.
 
the "backup after asteroid" idea stands on very weak limbs: an asteroid on Mars would be far more devastating than on Earth, and it is statistically far more likely to happen. If you want a backup, Mars is not your location.
Never said it was.
A Deep Sea Colony would be easier, cheaper, safer and better situated to come to the aid of an Earth devastated by an asteroid than one on another planet. Even an orbital base would be better than Mars in terms of having eggs in another basket.
Space habitats, colonies on the moons of Jupiter and Saturn, and on Ceres and Vesta in the asteroid belts. There's plenty of options once humanity is a fully spacefaring species.
Science I grant you, but obviously there is an effectiveness question.
We already know that experiments performed in microgravity have revealed new things. And robots are fine as far as they go, but they don't go very far and their capabilities are limited. Nothing beats humans doing actual science.
The problem with this idea is that the vast majority of humans will still be on this planet when the planet killing asteroid (or other disaster) comes along. It's very unlikely that you or I or any of our friends and family or their descendants will escape this catastrophe. Why should we care about "humanity". It's humans that matter. We should be trying to improve life for actual humans rather than the abstract concept that is "humanity".
Humanity, as far as we know, is unique in the universe. We hope it isn't, but there's no way to know right now so we have to treat our species as something valuable and worth preserving.
 
We already know that experiments performed in microgravity have revealed new things. And robots are fine as far as they go, but they don't go very far and their capabilities are limited. Nothing beats humans doing actual science.
This.
Too many people uncritically dismiss human spaceflight and just drag out the old canard that robots can do just as much, and more safely. That canard simply is not true...the Apollo program demonstrates this.

The 12 Apollo astronauts covered about 100km over a period of about 3.5 days (80 hours actual EVA time) on the Lunar surface. Four robots have so far spent 13,766 days (330,400) hours on the surface of Mars... and covered a total of ..... 118km

Effectively, two humans could explore the Lunar surface at a rate of 1.25 km per day, while four robots have explored Mars at a rate of less than 10m per day.

Additionally, robots don't have intuition - the capacity to go... "gee, that looks interesting. I think I'll go over and take a closer look". I seriously doubt that the Lunar "orange soil", a discovery that dramatically changed our understanding of the history of Lunar geology, would have been discovered by a robot. Of course, the argument that it is much harder to put humans on the surface of a planet than it is a robot, and keep them there, but if humans always used the argument 'its too hard", we'd still be confined to Gauteng or Olduvai Gorge.
 
We already know that experiments performed in microgravity have revealed new things. And robots are fine as far as they go, but they don't go very far and their capabilities are limited. Nothing beats humans doing actual science.
That's not true. Humans are doing science, they just don't have to go to Mars and put up with all the privations. The robots can also tolerate harsh conditions much better. They are more efficient with energy and use less of it. When something goes wrong the no-one dies.
 
This.
Too many people uncritically dismiss human spaceflight and just drag out the old canard that robots can do just as much, and more safely. That canard simply is not true...the Apollo program demonstrates this.

The 12 Apollo astronauts covered about 100km over a period of about 3.5 days (80 hours actual EVA time) on the Lunar surface. Four robots have so far spent 13,766 days (330,400) hours on the surface of Mars... and covered a total of ..... 118km

Effectively, two humans could explore the Lunar surface at a rate of 1.25 km per day, while four robots have explored Mars at a rate of less than 10m per day.

Additionally, robots don't have intuition - the capacity to go... "gee, that looks interesting. I think I'll go over and take a closer look". I seriously doubt that the Lunar "orange soil", a discovery that dramatically changed our understanding of the history of Lunar geology, would have been discovered by a robot. Of course, the argument that it is much harder to put humans on the surface of a planet than it is a robot, and keep them there, but if humans always used the argument 'its too hard", we'd still be confined to Gauteng or Olduvai Gorge.
This is a matter of energy supply. Give the rovers similar energy as what was given to the Apollo cars and they could go just as far. Also a massive amount of money was spent on Apollo. These Mars rovers cost much less.
 
Additionally, robots don't have intuition - the capacity to go... "gee, that looks interesting. I think I'll go over and take a closer look". I seriously doubt that the Lunar "orange soil", a discovery that dramatically changed our understanding of the history of Lunar geology, would have been discovered by a robot.
These robots are not making discoveries. Humans are looking at the video footage from the robots, and if they find something interesting, they do indeed say “gee, that looks interesting. I think we’ll send the robot to take a closer look”.
 
These robots are not making discoveries. Humans are looking at the video footage from the robots, and if they find something interesting, they do indeed say “gee, that looks interesting. I think we’ll send the robot to take a closer look”.
Except that robots cannot quickly scan, and make quick decisions. Furthermore, even when the human sees something, it can take days or weeks to send the robot, if it can even get to what the human found interesting.

Also, such decisions will trample on the carefully planned course and missions each researcher wants.

Additionally, video relayed over between 55 and 400 million kilometres (HD or not) will never have the seeing capacity of a human looking with their own eyes.
 
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If we send people to Mars, a lot of robots will be sent first to prepare for the manned missions. And when people explore Mars, even if just from orbit around Mars, they will be able to better control the robots and explore more of the planet in less time.

If people aren't going to Mars, all of the funding for manned missions won't go to robotic ones. Very little money will be allocated and there won't be many robots going there.

Plus, we really do need to develop a way to extend humanity beyond earth before we or some natural disaster makes it unliveable.
 
For me the humans-versus-robots discussion misses the mark. Only part of the discussion is about which mode of exploration does science best. Humans go places because they want to go there. The justification of doing good science seems at least in part a way to make that seem a little less frivolous. In my personal opinion, we should just own the desire to go places and proudly do it.
 
If we send people to Mars, a lot of robots will be sent first to prepare for the manned missions. And when people explore Mars, even if just from orbit around Mars, they will be able to better control the robots and explore more of the planet in less time.

If people aren't going to Mars, all of the funding for manned missions won't go to robotic ones. Very little money will be allocated and there won't be many robots going there.

Plus, we really do need to develop a way to extend humanity beyond earth before we or some natural disaster makes it unliveable.
What could plausibly happen on Earth that would make it less habitable than, say, Mars?

Mars can never support a self-sufficient human population as it lacks so many elements in reasonably sufficient concentrations and accessibility. For example, plants require nitrogen. The Martian atmosphere is 2.7% nitrogen but the atmosphere itself has been described as a 'laboratory grade vacuum', coming it at about 1% the density of Earth's. And that's just one issue
 
What could plausibly happen on Earth that would make it less habitable than, say, Mars?

Mars can never support a self-sufficient human population as it lacks so many elements in reasonably sufficient concentrations and accessibility. For example, plants require nitrogen. The Martian atmosphere is 2.7% nitrogen but the atmosphere itself has been described as a 'laboratory grade vacuum', coming it at about 1% the density of Earth's. And that's just one issue
According to many YouTubers you just have put some sort of gizmo on the surface and pronto, you have a lush green planet ripe for building casinos with blackjack and hookers. You gotta learn to listen to the scientists man!
 
According to many YouTubers you just have put some sort of gizmo on the surface and pronto, you have a lush green planet ripe for building casinos with blackjack and hookers. You gotta learn to listen to the scientists man!

Exactly. I don't think you could put it any more simply than that.

If you've seen the original Total Recall you'll know that the original Martians built a gigantic machine, capable of making their planet habitable again in a matter of minutes. And then they didn't use it and probably died of thirst or suffocated or something which is odd. But anyway. All we have to do is find that machine and switch it on.
 

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