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So which are craziest, flatearthers, sovcits, or ...?

Pretty epic that the skeptics forum is debating how demonstrable the shape of the earth is.

"Skeptics." There's a lot more to skepticism than assuming you understand the truth just because you accept the orthodoxy uncritically. Like when TGZ said the earth's shadow falls over the moon every night, proving its roundness. That's not even an orthodox claim! It's a garbled message from the orthodoxy that TGZ never bothered to check for errors.
 
How does one use this secret knowledge and superiority to any advantage? Besides invites to backwater forums and discussion groups of like minds.

It makes me feel good. I become one of a clan of like-minded, knowing people. Blame human evolution.
 
Cool. Now draw me one showing how I can see low lying land across the bay from the top of the cliff, yet when I go to the bottom of the cliff, nearer to it, the sea goes right to the horizon.
Wow, you're just dragging those goalposts all over the place! STS claimed a proof that wasn't, and I demonstrated that it wasn't. The proper response to that is, "nice demonstration, I agree that STS was wrong." Not, "forget about that, now debunk some other claim entirely that you never objected to."
 
That only works if the clouds are near the edge. Can you produce the same phenomenon if the clouds are significantly farther in from the edge?
Yes.

Because one can see the clouds-lit-from beneath phenomenon anywhere in the world. I've seen it at sunset over Lake Erie, for example.
I demonstrated the geometric principle that STS denied. If you think there's a zone between parallel planes where the principle does not hold, I think it's on you to demonstrate it. ETA: Especially since the Round Earth Trivialists in this thread have consistently and arrogantly refused to produce even the most basic support for their belief in Round Earth Trivialism. I've already put in more effort, and I don't even believe in a flat earth! Get on my level.
 
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And there's your problem right there!

Per the diagrams at: Flat Earth - Frequently Asked Questions the sun always remains above the Flat Earth.

More specifically: How do flat Earth supporters explain day and night mechanisms?

The flat-earthers continue to insist that the Earth is motionless, not rotating or moving at all, so how do they explain the day/night cycle?

They agree that the flat Earth model would not work with a Sun that goes beneath the Earth, because it would be dark over the entire world at once, and we know that doesn’t happen. It is easy to prove that it's daytime on one "side" of the planet and simultaneously night on the other.
 
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I'm happy to concede that the sun drops below the plane of the earth in my flat earth model.

Also I don't see how a round sun makes a difference in this particular scenario.

That again is a problem. So why then does it not go dark in the world all at once? There is no coherent Flat Earth Model. There are only bits and pieces that attempt to explain away individually observed facts.

When these facts are demonstrated and the self-contradiction is shown, the resulting explanations depend on millions of people lying for millennia.
 
I'm happy to concede that the sun drops below the plane of the earth in my flat earth model.

Also I don't see how a round sun makes a difference in this particular scenario.

Which particular scenario? We are considering two possibilities here, one in which the sun drops below the plane of the earth, and one in which it does not.

In the latter case, it would never be night anywhere. In the former, one could only ever see the clouds-lit-from-beneath-at-dusk phenomenon near the actual edge of the earth, rather than anywhere in the world. Commonplace observation, plus modus tollens, eliminates both horns of that dilemma.
 
STS60 did not reference a geometric principle. He referred to an observation, which, by your own admission, your model does not explain.*
I disagree that my model does not explain the observation.

Which particular scenario? We are considering two possibilities here, one in which the sun drops below the plane of the earth, and one in which it does not.

In the latter case, it would never be night anywhere. In the former, one could only ever see the clouds-lit-from-beneath-at-dusk phenomenon near the actual edge of the earth, rather than anywhere in the world. Commonplace observation, plus modus tollens, eliminates both horns of that dilemma.
How far does one have to be from the edge of the earth, before the phenomenon cannot be observed?

I'm not claiming that flat-earthers have a valid refutation of round-earth claims and observations. I'm claiming that it takes more time and effort than TGZ imagines, to actually come up with a proper proof. STS says clouds can't be illuminated from below on a flat earth. I easily came up with - and demonstrated! - a geometrical context in which he's wrong. If you think this doesn't prove a flat earth, I agree with you. Still, it's more than Round Earth Trivialists have done so far.

But if you really want to debate flat-eartherism, go find a flat-earther.
 
Wait just a moment. You asserted a principle. We do not see evidence that you demonstrated it. About the only empirical aspect of that picture is that the picture itself exists.

I suppose it might depend a bit on the coherence of your light source and the reflectivity and distance of the clouds, but when I actually tried the diagram you post, with the light source where you show it, it left the table entirely unlit, and the paper ceiling showed a fairly sharp delineation between light and dark, corresponding to the shape of the table edge. If the light source continues to sink further below the table, the lighted area moves, of course, steadily toward the edge. Since it is reasonable to assume that a flat earth's atmosphere is also flat, and does not extend into outer space, it also has an edge, so the light diminishes into a smaller and smaller slice, visible equally and simultaneously to all upon the table, until it abruptly ceases. The apparently temporary half-answer that the sun might not go below the surface of the table requires a pretty elaborate bit of mumbo-jumbo theory to allow a sunset and sunrise.

It is hard to figure out a flat earth scenario in which there is not either instant night over all the earth at once, or no night at all. You may be quite able to function with a flat earth assumption if you don't think about it at all, and just count it a black-box miracle, but pretty hard not to consider a round earth empirically obvious if you do.

Granted, there may be ways to make it work, and maybe it's still possible somewhere to take Phoebus's golden chariot as nonfiction, but I do not think that that theory passes empirical muster.

e.t.a. on the issue raised by Reformed Offlian, I think you're reading it wrong. The phenomenon of the lit clouds could be observed by anyone on the flat earth who can see the distance. But wherever you are when you see it, it would always have to be at the same time, in the same place, moving in the same way toward the sunset edge of the table.

And a further e.t.a. I think there is some backwards thinking here on another front. In this issue you need not come up with a proof of what is. Only of what isn't. It may be that a round world is the only reasonable alternative to a flat one, but you don't have to come up with arguments for roundness. In this case, all you need to do is show convincingly why the world cannot be flat. If the flat earth theory cannot survive the sunset, it's over, even if you then want to go on to mobius multiverses, wormholes and time cubes.
 
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I disagree that my model does not explain the observation.


How far does one have to be from the edge of the earth, before the phenomenon cannot be observed?

Roughly, the altitude of the cloud times the inverse tangent of the sunlight angle.

If the sun is ~1 degrees below the local horizon (about where we would expect it four minutes after sunset), the limit would be about 60 times the cloud's altitude. For a cirrhus cloud at 20km, the limit would be around 1200 km (~750 miles). I know for a fact that there is more than 750 miles of North America west of the far side of Lake Erie, and a whole lot of Pacific Ocean west of that.
 
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Wow, you're just dragging those goalposts all over the place! STS claimed a proof that wasn't, and I demonstrated that it wasn't. The proper response to that is, "nice demonstration, I agree that STS was wrong." Not, "forget about that, now debunk some other claim entirely that you never objected to."

No. You're saying there is no simple and obvious evidence from everyday experience that contradicts a flat earth. I've offered a counter example, and your response is to complain that I did so. That tends to undermine your argument.

Dave
 
If I ever met a flat earther, I would be tempted to act as though I didn't believe flat earthers exist, and that they were simply a group of highly dedicated LARPers. Then I would compliment them on their commitment to their role the more insistent they became about their genuine conviction. Maybe throw in a "Wow, I've heard you guys are so good that you've even fooled some very impressionable people that you're not LARPing. I can see why now! Amazing dedication to keep a straight face too! Impressive!".
 
e.t.a. on the issue raised by Reformed Offlian, I think you're reading it wrong. The phenomenon of the lit clouds could be observed by anyone on the flat earth who can see the distance. But wherever you are when you see it, it would always have to be at the same time, in the same place, moving in the same way toward the sunset edge of the table.

Indeed, theprestige hasn't actually grappled with the implications of the fact that you can observe the lit clouds phenomenon pretty much anywhere.

You can see burning sunsets over the Pacific from the Oregon cost.
You can see burning sunsets over Lake Erie from Erie, PA.
You can see them over the Chesapeake Bay from the DelMarVa peninsula.
You can see them over the Gulf of Mexico from Tampa.
You can see them over the Atlantic from Portugal.
You can see them over the Mediterranean from Cyprus.
You can see them over the Arabean Sea from India.

They can't *all* be that close to the western edge of the earth.
 
Knowing secret knowledge makes you superior.

I guess so but if the flat earth is true then the conspiracy is so large that its not exactly secret knowledge anymore. Practically the only people not in on the secret would be the flat earthers themselves.
 
Indeed, theprestige hasn't actually grappled with the implications of the fact that you can observe the lit clouds phenomenon pretty much anywhere.

You can see burning sunsets over the Pacific from the Oregon cost.
You can see burning sunsets over Lake Erie from Erie, PA.
You can see them over the Chesapeake Bay from the DelMarVa peninsula.
You can see them over the Gulf of Mexico from Tampa.
You can see them over the Atlantic from Portugal.
You can see them over the Mediterranean from Cyprus.
You can see them over the Arabean Sea from India.

They can't *all* be that close to the western edge of the earth.

That's a problem for flat earthers, not for me.

And it's a problem for round earthers who think you can trivially notice a round earth as you go about your daily business, and also not for me.
 
And it's a problem for round earthers who think you can trivially notice a round earth as you go about your daily business, and also not for me.

If one's daily business includes travel, it would not be a problem at all. Not everybody's daily business is confined to their basement.
 
It is a problem for the solution that *you* presented for the clouds-lit-from-underneath phenomenon. So yes, it is a problem for you.

If you say so. I'm not invested enough to fiddle with it any further. I hope it's not much of a problem for you. All the stuff I actually care about has been addressed to my satisfaction. If that changes I might post again.
 
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That's a problem for flat earthers, not for me.

And it's a problem for round earthers who think you can trivially notice a round earth as you go about your daily business, and also not for me.
You keep saying this but I keep not noticing anyone who said just that. What I think was said is that IF YOU KNOW how to look at the evidence, understanding that the earth is not flat becomes obvious.

This is quite different from the presumption that the fact is so trivially obvious that it explains itself.

If I am walking down the road in a faraway land, and have no knowledge of what lives around there, and know no reason to wonder, I may not understand the tracks of the leopard that is planning to have me for lunch. I might not even notice them. Or, not understanding but seeing them, I might think they are the tracks of another creature. Does this mean the tracks are not definitive for a leopard? No. A person native to the region would know just what the tracks are and what they mean, and could teach me. The lesson might be very quick and simple. Once understood, the sign would be obvious, and only a fool would then say "you lie, that's an elephant."

You cannot approach a flat earther as if that person had never even thought about the issue. Nobody is suggesting that a baby crawling across the back yard will suddenly stop and think,"wow, the earth must be round." If you're arguing about cosmology, you're way way beyond that point.

The fact that thinking about how the world is shaped, and how the cosmos operates, and how it all fits together is not itself trivial does not negate the fact that once that subject has been broached, disproof of a flat earth is simple. It is indeed so simple and obvious that it can be understood before, or without, understanding much else about the universe.
 
I'm happy to concede that the sun drops below the plane of the earth in my flat earth model.

Also I don't see how a round sun makes a difference in this particular scenario.

Any test of a model will only apply to a specific model. The test that shows the sun going below the clouds doesn't test your model. It does test a different model, and that happens to be the one that most flat earthers actually hold.

There are other tests that invalidate your model.

It doesn't help to say "for any specific test, there's a model that's consistent with it", you need a model that's consistent with all tests. You can't switch models between tests.
 
You keep saying this but I keep not noticing anyone who said just that. What I think was said is that IF YOU KNOW how to look at the evidence, understanding that the earth is not flat becomes obvious.

It looks like, after several attempts, theprestige finally managed to goad TGZ into agreeing to something like that, but no, that was never really the proposition under discussion in anyone's mind but his. theprestige only fixated on that idea after he got answers he didn't like to his questions in post #27.

This is quite different from the presumption that the fact is so trivially obvious that it explains itself.

If I am walking down the road in a faraway land, and have no knowledge of what lives around there, and know no reason to wonder, I may not understand the tracks of the leopard that is planning to have me for lunch. I might not even notice them. Or, not understanding but seeing them, I might think they are the tracks of another creature. Does this mean the tracks are not definitive for a leopard? No. A person native to the region would know just what the tracks are and what they mean, and could teach me. The lesson might be very quick and simple. Once understood, the sign would be obvious, and only a fool would then say "you lie, that's an elephant."

There seems to be this idea in play that observation can only involve immediate impressions of isolated sense data. Comparison with other data is not allowed, nor even the most trivial employment of interpretive skills. eta: Additionally, the sense data itself must be readily available without any effort from the observer. Thus, one cannot actually *observe* that a letter is written in English, let alone what it says. And you certainly can't suggest that such a thing is "obvious", because there exist at least some people for whom it wouldn't be. And God forbid the letter not lie ready to hand for some arbitrarily-designated cocktail party guests.
 
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No it isn't. 90% of what you're touting as empirical observations is just received wisdom about how to interpret what you're seeing. Like STS's nonsense about the sun illuminating the undersides of clouds. I can debunk that claim in ten seconds with a tabletop, a piece of paper, and a floor lamp.

nope.

99% of people will tell you that night&day happens because the earth rotates relative to the sun. That's the baseline.
And the people who think it doesn't can't explain why night and day happens.

Let's put it like this: anyone who thinks about it comes to the round earth conclusion unless they are already into conspiracies.
 
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Young earth
Flat earth
New world order
Obama a sleeper agent
Vaccines are a Fauci/Gates plot
Great replacement theory
Elites are Satanists who drink baby blood
Election denial

All eminating from fundamentalist Christians in large part (YEC entirely). Jews behind most of it. George Soros in particular.
 
I should let this go, I know, but to address the apparent idea that "received wisdom about how to interpret what you're seeing" is not a part of what can be counted as experience makes me wonder if theprestige ever had kids.

A favorite cartoon of long ago was of a parent and child, looking up at the sky, the parent saying "That's a cloud too. They're all clouds." Been there, done that.

The idea that things belong to classes, the idea that the thing you see today is the same thing you saw yesterday, all those ideas that are so trivially obvious to us, are learned. Many very quickly and very early, many without having to be taught by others, but learned.
 

That doesn't explain why we different parts of the world have day and night simultaneously.

The vast majority of modern flat earth cultists believe in a cosmology in which the sun revolves on a plane parallel to and above the plane of the earth. They do this in an attempt to reconcile a flat earth with what we know about day and night in different locations.

When you take into account the fact that the earth doesn't all experience day and night on the same schedule, it is actually your drawing that is the failed proof.
 
One thing you learn from studying the history of science is how difficult it is to work things out for the first time and then how obvious the explanation is to everyone afterwards. It took Kepler about ten years to figure out that the planets moved in elliptical orbits. He did try ovals early on but could not make them work.

If I was in an area that is relatively flat, say Salisbury Plain, a round Earth easily explains why you see the spire of the Cathedral appear over the horizon as you walk towards it, followed by the rest of the building as you get closer. A simple diagram suffices.
 
Thank god I never set out to create or defend a complete flat earth explanation.

I don't see how that invalidates what I wrote. You claimed that you'd debunked sts60's "nonsense" claim. But you didn't, because you didn't consider that to explain the phenomenon without a spherical earth you need to overlook the fairly well established notion that the entire surface of the earth isn't on the same day/night schedule. You also appear to have overlooked the first sentence in that post, which specifically mentions the Zetetic cosmology concept of the sun revolving in a plane parallel to and above the surface of the earth, because in the 19th century, even Samuel Rowbotham had to try to account for the established fact that everyone on earth doesn't experience sunrise and sunset at the same moment.
 
Yeah.

Perhaps to put this all a little more clearly: we all live in a world. Our experience of the world is based on a large number of background facts. Yes, the single observation that the sun illuminates the clouds from beneath doesn't by itself disprove a flat earth. But there is a context that we all share which is incompatible with both that fact and a flat earth.

Explicitly, time zones exist. Even if you've* never travelled far enough to experience jet lag for yourself, or notice that the sun is setting at a different time on your watch in your destination than it did the day before at home, you've talked to other people who describe that experience, or at least seen TV and Movies in which you've become aware that this is common knowledge. But it's such an easily disproved fact if its not true, that you either have to accept that the sun rises and sets at different times in different places, or start to believe in a completely insane worldwide conspiracy.

Given that context, the illumination of the clouds from underneath is enough to show that we live on a globe. Disputing the reality of that context really does require insane beliefs, and I'll just restate my own point here: accepting those insane beliefs will devastatingly poison your epistemology, infecting all other beliefs.

*"You" here doesn't refer to anyone in this thread, it refers to some hypothetical flat-earth believer.
 
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Yeah.

Perhaps to put this all a little more clearly: we all live in a world. Our experience of the world is based on a large number of background facts. Yes, the single observation that the sun illuminates the clouds from beneath doesn't by itself disprove a flat earth. But there is a context that we all share which is incompatible with both that fact and a flat earth.

Explicitly, time zones exist. Even if you've* never travelled far enough to experience jet lag for yourself, or notice that the sun is setting at a different time on your watch in your destination than it did the day before at home, you've talked to other people who describe that experience, or at least seen TV and Movies in which you've become aware that this is common knowledge.

...or talked to people on the phone in other time zones, or seen live sports or news coverage on TV featuring outdoor venues in different time zones, or outdoor live webcam feeds etc. Some of which one could even do at a cocktail party or barbecue.

All excellent points you make (that really shouldn't need to be made).
 
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I'm especially baffled by flat earthers who live south of the equator.

Eh, people are capable of surprising cognitive dissonance.

When I still worked as a researcher in genetics I worked with someone who was a biblical literalist, who still was using protein / gene databases to help predict protein functions. Something along the lines of evolution did not exist, but god made things this way so we could discover the wonders of the universe.
 
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