Skeptics and Prudishness

[Armitage72]

This may be more appropriate for Social Issues, but I'm starting it here. Mods can move it if they want.

The new January/February 2025 issue of Skeptical Inquirer has a commentary on degree mills, heavily referencing the book "Degree Mills. The Billion-Dollar Industry That Has Sold Over a Million Fake Diplomas." The article is "A Lesson in Phony Credentials", by Kat McLeod.
A significant portion of the article talks about Robert Perkins, a man who ran a degree mill that provided fraudulent psychology training to the Calgary Police Service and made many outlandish false claims about his qualifications during his fraud career.

However, this sentence appears in the article:
"Perkins and his wife were also active in Toronto's kink and fetish scene, using the aliases Amani and Veronica Maxwell."
This sentence has a footnote to an article in online Canadian news magazine The Tyee, so it's not just referencing the book that's the main source of the article.

I don't feel that this sentence serves any purpose in the article. What Perkins and his wife do for pleasure in their personal lives has no relevance toward establishing his credibility, or lack thereof in this case. It's just an ad hominem attack, tearing down his work (deserved though that may be) using what is apparently intended to be seen as "degenerate" personal behavior. You may as well say that a scientist's research isn't reliable because they and their spouse had sex before they were married.

Is it just a quirk of this writer?
Is prudishness or a lack of acceptance of nontraditional sexual practices widespread in the skeptic community? Are a lot of prominent members of the skeptic community old, with accompanying old fashioned beliefs? Am I making too much of this one sentence?

 

[Norman Alexander]

Seems to be just an interesting footnote.

 

[arthwollipot]

And wait, they leaked their play names? That's ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up.

Hint folks. If you find out someone has a play name in the fetish scene don't ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ out them.

 

[Armitage72]

And wait, they leaked their play names? That's ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up.

Hint folks. If you find out someone has a play name in the fetish scene don't ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ out them.

It was the Tyee article that did that. The SI article was just repeating that information. Doesn't excuse the original incident though. Like I said, it was in no way relevant to him being a con artist and fraudster.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Just like " former Marine " has no bearing on a murder suspect, or even a convicted one. We see crap like that all the time.

 

[arthwollipot]

It was the Tyee article that did that. The SI article was just repeating that information. Doesn't excuse the original incident though. Like I said, it was in no way relevant to him being a con artist and fraudster.

It's worse than doxxing someone. They should be ashamed.

 

[jt512]

And wait, they leaked their play names? That's ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up.

Hint folks. If you find out someone has a play name in the fetish scene don't ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ out them.

There's a hill to die on: protecting oppressed criminal fraud fetishists.

 

[bruto]

There's a hill to die on: protecting oppressed criminal fraud fetishists.

I think you miss a point here. An article unmasking the fraudsters is hardly protecting them. But unless you believe sexual kinks are a contributing factor to criminal enterprise, bringing it up is a spurious linkage unless you intend to imply that those kinks are themselves wrong, degenerate, or outright criminal. Whatever you introduce carries with it the implication that it has some relevance in understanding either the crime or the criminal.

We all likely have a certain salacious interest in the back stories of people we despise, but I think this prudish slant does not belong in responsible journalism.

 

[arthwollipot]

There's a hill to die on: protecting oppressed criminal fraud fetishists.

You can say that someone is a criminal fraudster without implying that they are immoral sexual deviants. And regardless, even criminal fraudsters are entitled to the basic human right of privacy. If this information is not directly relevant to the case it should not be in the public eye.

Why do you think members of fetish community use play names anyway?

 

[jt512]

I think you miss a point here.

I got the point. Like I said: that's a hill to die on.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Sounds more like standard prurience than anything else.

 

[theprestige]

This may be more appropriate for Social Issues, but I'm starting it here. Mods can move it if they want.

The new January/February 2025 issue of Skeptical Inquirer has a commentary on degree mills, heavily referencing the book "Degree Mills. The Billion-Dollar Industry That Has Sold Over a Million Fake Diplomas." The article is "A Lesson in Phony Credentials", by Kat McLeod.
A significant portion of the article talks about Robert Perkins, a man who ran a degree mill that provided fraudulent psychology training to the Calgary Police Service and made many outlandish false claims about his qualifications during his fraud career.

However, this sentence appears in the article:
"Perkins and his wife were also active in Toronto's kink and fetish scene, using the aliases Amani and Veronica Maxwell."
This sentence has a footnote to an article in online Canadian news magazine The Tyee, so it's not just referencing the book that's the main source of the article.

I don't feel that this sentence serves any purpose in the article. What Perkins and his wife do for pleasure in their personal lives has no relevance toward establishing his credibility, or lack thereof in this case. It's just an ad hominem attack, tearing down his work (deserved though that may be) using what is apparently intended to be seen as "degenerate" personal behavior. You may as well say that a scientist's research isn't reliable because they and their spouse had sex before they were married.

Is it just a quirk of this writer?
Is prudishness or a lack of acceptance of nontraditional sexual practices widespread in the skeptic community? Are a lot of prominent members of the skeptic community old, with accompanying old fashioned beliefs? Am I making too much of this one sentence?

It's possible that the SI author or editor felt it necessary to note the fact in passing, because it was included in the source material they referenced.

But yeah, republishing the play names is inexcusable regardless.

 

[bruto]

I got the point. Like I said: that's a hill to die on.

Perhaps, but I think the issue here has nothing to do with "protecting oppressed criminal fetishists" as you put it, but the very reverse. It is about protecting non-criminal fetishists from implied equivalence. It prudishly implies a relation between the morality of fraud with that of sexual behavior.

 

[bruto]

Perhaps, but I think the issue here has nothing to do with "protecting oppressed criminal fetishists" as you put it, but the very reverse. It is about protecting non-criminal fetishists from implied equivalence. It prudishly implies a relation between the morality of fraud and that of sexual behavior.

Sorry, I pushed "reply" instead of "edit," and just meant to change "with" to "and" for trivial grammatical reasons.

 

[sackett]

Why don't the kink & fetish folks deserve a warning about this swindler? You can bet that he's used his connections in the scene to peddle fraud.

Question, because I really don't know: Can't he and his wife change their play names?

 

[arthwollipot]

Why don't the kink & fetish folks deserve a warning about this swindler? You can bet that he's used his connections in the scene to peddle fraud.

Question, because I really don't know: Can't he and his wife change their play names?

Yes, but doing so is a bit like changing your regular use name. You can do it, but people in the scene have known you by your play name and it might be hard to get the new name to stick.

 

[Axxman300]

To address the OP: It's just sloppy and lazy writing. This fact adds nothing to the primary issue of fraud, and IMO says more about the author than the subject. Unless he was using his kink connections to pass along dangerous psychological advice, or as a way to gain new customers for his diploma mill then his private hobbies are not relevant. Not sure why the editor was cool with this.

 

[Darat]

As Axxman300 says lazy writing and lazy editing. It is meant to be adding “colour”, it’s why they always give someone’s job a mention. The Daily Fail is well known for using the price of the house someone lives in as “colour”. But it can also be used to try to weight an article against or for someone.

 

[sackett]

Yes, but doing so is a bit like changing your regular use name. You can do it, but people in the scene have known you by your play name and it might be hard to get the new name to stick.

Yes, I thought so. Of course, if he & the missus go deep goth, they could try changing their look as well as their play handles.

But I agree that the writer and editors played a damn dirty trick on this swindling crook of a con artist. I'll see if I can work up some indignation. Maybe next week?

 

[bruto]

Yes, I thought so. Of course, if he & the missus go deep goth, they could try changing their look as well as their play handles.

But I agree that the writer and editors played a damn dirty trick on this swindling crook of a con artist. I'll see if I can work up some indignation. Maybe next week?

If the intention was to do further harm to the fraudsters or to protect the other people in the group, they could have done it back channel. As it was done, the effect on the fraudsters is likely minimal, and that on the rest of the group likely negative. I see no reason for doing it as they did except for laziness, prudishness, or both.

 

[Foster Zygote]

There was no good reason to include that in the article. Their perfectly legal sexual preferences are completely irrelevant to the fraud accusations. It's one thing if the person involved has made public statements condemning others for doing what they themselves have been doing, Like Ted Haggard or Bridget and Christian Ziegler. But if they're sexual preferences don't involve anyone being coerced, or anyone not a legal adult, then they aren't anyone else's business, even if they do commit an illegal act of some kind.

And in my experience, people of a skeptical bent tend to be far more open to differing sexual preferences. I think the above is just an example of a lapse in journalistic integrity.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

There are a number of reasons for the original journalist to bring up the issue of Perkins's involvement in the kink and fetish scene.

Part of it may be public shaming. The journalist is obviously trying to take down an alleged fraudster. The journalist exposed the fraud in in his article in Global News. The police did a criminal investigation...but only of police officers, which they found none. And the Police Service's executive director of wellness and resiliency was still pursuing a course from the alleged fraudster. Perkins was completely getting away with it. His alias used in the sex community was not used in the first Global News article, only in the subsequent Tyee article. Perhaps connecting them to something like kinky sex might get some more attention to the matter. Perchance.

There is also the issue that Perkin's claims to have a masters degree in theology and is an ordained minister and refers to himself as "reverend". He is the head of several chaplain organizations. Using an alias to participate in kinky sex groups would strike many as not being authentic to a reverend minister.

That also connects to the issues raised with the credentials claimed by the police executive director, which include an advanced degree from a theological seminary and counsellor training from a church that offers official ordination for $150.

It also connects to Veronica Maxwell, who has a PhD from Perkins's college and uses another alias and is on the faculty of the college and elsewhere is identified as Perkin's wife. She claims she has developed “miracle breathing cures and techniques for all erectile and sexual dysfunctions.”

The alias exposed in the article is not just for participation in a kinky sex group; it is from a post where Perkins (using an alias) and Maxwell are offering a Q & A session. This is part of the wider network of alleged fraud and warning to people who may believe they are getting advice, counselling, and training from someone they believe has legitimate credentials in psychology and sexology.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Its the Neo-Puritan horshoe where both the far left and far right link hands to oppose The Sexual Revolution

 

[Darat]

There are a number of reasons for the original journalist to bring up the issue of Perkins's involvement in the kink and fetish scene.

Part of it may be public shaming. The journalist is obviously trying to take down an alleged fraudster. The journalist exposed the fraud in in his article in Global News. The police did a criminal investigation...but only of police officers, which they found none. And the Police Service's executive director of wellness and resiliency was still pursuing a course from the alleged fraudster. Perkins was completely getting away with it. His alias used in the sex community was not used in the first Global News article, only in the subsequent Tyee article. Perhaps connecting them to something like kinky sex might get some more attention to the matter. Perchance.

There is also the issue that Perkin's claims to have a masters degree in theology and is an ordained minister and refers to himself as "reverend". He is the head of several chaplain organizations. Using an alias to participate in kinky sex groups would strike many as not being authentic to a reverend minister.

That also connects to the issues raised with the credentials claimed by the police executive director, which include an advanced degree from a theological seminary and counsellor training from a church that offers official ordination for $150.

It also connects to Veronica Maxwell, who has a PhD from Perkins's college and uses another alias and is on the faculty of the college and elsewhere is identified as Perkin's wife. She claims she has developed “miracle breathing cures and techniques for all erectile and sexual dysfunctions.”

The alias exposed in the article is not just for participation in a kinky sex group; it is from a post where Perkins (using an alias) and Maxwell are offering a Q & A session. This is part of the wider network of alleged fraud and warning to people who may believe they are getting advice, counselling, and training from someone they believe has legitimate credentials in psychology and sexology.

Thanks for that additional info

 

[arthwollipot]

The fact that they've unmasked the guy as a criminal fraudster isn't enough. They have to kinkshame him and link his activities to perverted sexual deviancy for maximum public humiliation too.

 

[catsmate]

Seems to be just an interesting footnote.

BT utterly irrelevant.

And wait, they leaked their play names? That's ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up.

Hint folks. If you find out someone has a play name in the fetish scene don't ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ out them.

Indeed.

It was the Tyee article that did that. The SI article was just repeating that information. Doesn't excuse the original incident though. Like I said, it was in no way relevant to him being a con artist and fraudster.

Exactly.

There's a hill to die on: protecting oppressed criminal fraud fetishists.

The detail has no relevance.

Sounds more like standard prurience than anything else.

True.

 

[Norman Alexander]

BT utterly irrelevant.

Not quite sure what you mean by that...

 

[catsmate]

Not quite sure what you mean by that...

Odd autocorrect,it should have been 'but'.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Odd autocorrect,it should have been 'but'.

Fairy nuff. True comment.

 

[Thermal]

Agreed that they are just reporting another alias in its context. No different than if it was reported that they also ran a construction company under the names Jimmy and Ginny Jackhammer. Knowledge of the alias may lead to additiinal.victims who only knew the fraudsters by the alias names.

What's notable is how weird defenders of this secret name thing are being.

 

[arthwollipot]

What's notable is how weird defenders of this secret name thing are being.

Why?

 

[bruto]

Agreed that they are just reporting another alias in its context. No different than if it was reported that they also ran a construction company under the names Jimmy and Ginny Jackhammer. Knowledge of the alias may lead to additiinal.victims who only knew the fraudsters by the alias names.

What's notable is how weird defenders of this secret name thing are being.

I don't have a problem with revealing the alias, and not much with revealing that it was a secret identity in a kinky sex group. Those things might be seen legitimately as revealing their character, especially when combined with other information. What I don't see as necessary is identifying the group publicly, considering that they are likely victims, not perpetrators.

 

[Thermal]

Why?

You tell me. I'm not being weird about it.

 

[Thermal]

I don't have a problem with revealing the alias, and not much with revealing that it was a secret identity in a kinky sex group. Those things might be seen legitimately as revealing their character, especially when combined with other information. What I don't see as necessary is identifying the group publicly, considering that they are likely victims, not perpetrators.

I dunno. It seems pretty dry how the group is being identified, like just another social group. It doesn't strike me as kink shaming, but just blowing the whistle with "hey people that hung out at this particular club: you recognize these names?"

 

[arthwollipot]

I dunno. It seems pretty dry how the group is being identified, like just another social group. It doesn't strike me as kink shaming, but just blowing the whistle with "hey people that hung out at this particular club: you recognize these names?"

Thus blowing away any anonymity they had in that club.

It depends on the club though. For some clubs, anonymity is essential. Others, not so much.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I'm leaning more toward the "they're scamming people under these names, maybe under those names too". It was only in reading this thread that I discovered there's a thing called "play names" and this comes with its own rules of etiquette, like Fight Club.

 

[Thermal]

Thus blowing away any anonymity they had in that club.

Who cares? Their secret spy recreation is a bit secondary to them scamming people with real live victims.

 

[bruto]

Thus blowing away any anonymity they had in that club.

It depends on the club though. For some clubs, anonymity is essential. Others, not so much.

This. If the concern had really been for the potential victims of the scam, it could have been done better.

 

[Thermal]

This. If the concern had really been for the potential victims of the scam, it could have been done better.

I'm missing something here. The article referred only to activity in "Toronto's kink and fetish scene". That's pretty vague, isn't it? Borderline meaningless? Then it goes to the relevant specifics: the exact aliases they used, which are as important as any other aliases used by scammers.

I mean, if they titled the article "Kink Freaks Busted", then yeah, I'd say they were being prudish/shaming about it. But don't journalists tend to throw out any info on the bad guys they can, if only to show how thorough they investigated? Like Luigi Mangione having his education and job history published. It's a journalists way of saying "we dug deep".

 

[Thermal]

Why do you think members of fetish community use play names anyway?

Because they don't want anyone to know who they really are. Since they decided to delve into widespread criminality and defraud people, they lost that cloak of secrecy they relied on across the board. Sunshine, disinfectant and all that.