Should the F-35 be scrapped?

I don't think this is something that comes in a default neutral position, Prestige. If your argument is that there's no reason why they SHOULD be spending money, but hey, there's no reason why they SHOULD NOT, well...

I can think of one...
Is it a good reason?

So really, I don't think not spending has to be justified.
Doesn't matter. A wide range of professionals and experts have gone to great lengths to justify this particular spending, to the DOD, and to Congress.

If you're claiming that their justifications are in error, simply citing your disagreement as a sufficient counter-argument isn't enough. You're going to have to rebut their specific justifications, either demonstrating them to be in error, or demonstrating that your own counter-argument is in fact better.
 
In what war and against who would the F-35 be used? Is it doomed to be another Eurofighter designed to fight an enemy (the USSR) that no longer exists? (and replacing a set of more specialist aircraft that were actually good at their specific assigned role)

Programs like this call in to question all the assumptions that the military and Governments make. They're very good at fighting the last war and fail miserably in the next.

The opening shot of the "War on Terror" was fought by terrorists yielding $3.50 box-cutters!

I wonder how many sets of body armour or IED resistant vehicles could be bought for the cost of this program.

Steve
 
In what war and against who would the F-35 be used? Is it doomed to be another Eurofighter designed to fight an enemy (the USSR) that no longer exists? (and replacing a set of more specialist aircraft that were actually good at their specific assigned role)

Programs like this call in to question all the assumptions that the military and Governments make. They're very good at fighting the last war and fail miserably in the next.
The F-35 is a lightweight multi-purpose fighter meant as a replacement for the F-16, F-18, and similar aircraft which are getting a bit long in the tooth. Those birds cannot keep flying forever. And the F-35 is a 5th-generation fighter. Stealthy and capable of providing close support for ground troops. Very much designed for the future rather than the past.

The opening shot of the "War on Terror" was fought by terrorists yielding $3.50 box-cutters!

I wonder how many sets of body armour or IED resistant vehicles could be bought for the cost of this program.

Steve
Money for body armor isn't the problem, it's that body armor is evolving rapidly and no matter how much money you have you will never be able to supply all the troops with the "latest" and "best". Kind of like trying to have the latest and best home computer, by the time you get it home and take it out of the box it no longer is.

As far as IED-resistant vehicles we have the Stryker and the Bradley, and either one can be destroyed by an IED. So can a M1 Abrams tank as far as that goes. Humvees were never meant to be explosive-resistant. Armor them and you add weight and reduce the capabilities for the role they were designed for. Many soldiers have been killed when their top-heavy uparmored Humvee rolled over into a canal or ditch, and many bad guys got away because the uparmored Humvee couldn't keep up with the econobox Fiat they were getting away in.
 
oggiesnr said:
In what war and against who would the F-35 be used?

From the context, I can safely assume that you believe the F-35 is a waste of money because we aren't going to fight Russia anymore.

Problem is, this "Cold War" adjective is a completely useless misrepresentation of top-notch military spending because it implies the F-35 would be useful only in a world war. Let's look at its contemporary's basic capabilities, shall we?

The F-22:

1: Has one of the most advanced stealth systems ever invented, making it a much harder target for any guided projectile and possibly enabling it to escape detection under certain circumstances

2: Was built with the lessons of thrust-vectoring (among other aerodynamic advances) in mind, making it one of the most maneuverable fighter aircraft in the world

3: Can cruise above the sonic threshold without afterburner, saving much fuel compared to any preceding fighter

So, if you're keeping score at home, we have a more efficient, stealthier, deadlier aircraft overall, able to hold the advantage in both BVR and dogfighting engagements. What purpose does this lead to? Maintaining air superiority. Likewise, the F-35 is meant to improve on its predecessors in the multi-role specification (I'm not as aware of its advantages, but it clearly incorporates some improvements. I'm nervous about a single-engine plane for a carrier, though).

So in arguing against updating our air force, one is basically asserting that 1) we will never really need to maintain air superiority/undertake CAS in a high-threat environment again and 2) the rest of the world will politely acquiesce to hold themselves to our technical level.
 
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Translations: The military always has a good reason why you shouldn't cut spending.

The (paraphrased) quote showing a desire to achieve peace is from a military figure, the quote showing implacable desire to annihilate an opposing nation is from a civil figure. "Carthago delenda est" was included as nerd humor, not as a serious argument, but the argument about peace through strength has been conventional wisdom for millenia and similar quotes can be found from many prominent historical figures going back at least as far as Pericles. "Si vis pacem, para bellum" just happens to be by far the most famous of those quotes.

Weakness invites attack. Strength discourages it. Can you think of any other reason that neither Philip nor Alexander even attempted to conquer Sparta? The disaster at Tuetoberger wald had absolutely nothing to do with Augustus' decision (immediately afterward) to stop attempts to move the border of the empire eastward past the Rhine, right? Crassus' defeat at Carrhae had nothing whatsoever to do with the Rome's decision to abandon attempts at expanding eastward into Parthian territory?
 
Weakness invites attack. Strength discourages it. Can you think of any other reason that neither Philip nor Alexander even attempted to conquer Sparta?

Because at the time they were a minor unimportant kingdom not worth conquering.
 
Because at the time they were a minor unimportant kingdom not worth conquering.
Niether Philip nor Alexander ever wrote to thank Epaminondas. :p
An anecdote has it that when Philip II sent a message to Sparta saying "If I enter Laconia, I will level Sparta to the ground," the Spartans responded with the single, terse reply: "If."

Pithy. Laconic, even. ;)
 
Is it a good reason?


Doesn't matter. A wide range of professionals and experts have gone to great lengths to justify this particular spending, to the DOD, and to Congress.

If you're claiming that their justifications are in error, simply citing your disagreement as a sufficient counter-argument isn't enough. You're going to have to rebut their specific justifications, either demonstrating them to be in error, or demonstrating that your own counter-argument is in fact better.

But their justifications have been discussed in this thread. They are envisioning a Cold War era confrontation between major armed powers conducted by massed armed forces using conventional tactics and weaponry.

We are discussing the justifications for that worldview, especially as pertains to throwing away over a billion dollars in pursuit of it.

This has expanded into a larger issue of generalized justifications for the large levels of military spending in the US (47% of the world's budget). Frankly, they're an anvil around the neck of our economy, money thrown away on products that generate no capital, no pleasure, and for the most part serve little purpose (it's hard to point to one of our military actions that used the full capacity of the US military - and even when the military was strained, it was because they were preparing for the wrong sorts of events - more direct conflicts, less armored APCs for patrolling hostile territory, that sort of thing).
 
But their justifications have been discussed in this thread. They are envisioning a Cold War era confrontation between major armed powers conducted by massed armed forces using conventional tactics and weaponry.
That is false. They are envisioning a future conflict that may include a major rival. That isn't the same thing. You have attempted to create the strawman, and to be fair, you are not the only critic of the DoD who does this, that this is the same as a Cold War era confrontation.

That scenario is a "worst case" capability requirement, with all others, to include the standard expeditionary warfare capability of the Joint Forces down to mundane humanitarian assistance role, as lesser included cases. Even the worst case had, last I was involved in such matters, assumed some risks that reduce, not increase, the forces agreed upon to deal with such a contingency. (The posture was eloquently if somewhat innacurately described by the US Army in the late 90's as "CONUS based, globally deployable")
We are discussing the justifications for that worldview especially as pertains to throwing away over a billion dollars in pursuit of it.
You are apparently discussing a strawman, then.

This has expanded into a larger issue of generalized justifications for the large levels of military spending in the US (47% of the world's budget).
Indeed. It is expensive to fund a military establishment that involves itself in global security, not just local security. And once again, that has been American policy, in varying forms, since WW II ended, as that policy has as one of its intents the deterrent to wars via capability (credible strength) and presence. You could argue that we've been that globally engaged since 1898 and the end of the Spanish American War, but I don't think the scales compare favorably, particularly as other Powers were all over the globe as well.
ETA: I had 1898 as 1989, bad.

As before, could the size of the force be smaller?

Sure.

One of the ways to reduce the budget was bandied about by Admiral Clarke when he was CNO. Cut the carrier force to 8 from 12, and keep the carriers deployed for longer periods, with the Blue and Gold crew rotation scheme used for SSBN's. That cuts about 5-10,000 from the navy manpower bill, and cuts the O & M budget for the CV force by a third. It also reduces somewhat the final tallly of escorts, though not by much due to the increasingly dispersed nature of using maritine forces for policy ends.

This approach was an intriguing idea on paper. I only say it reducing two wings of CAS aircraft, and thus cut the JSF buy by a few hundred. It did run into a training and readiness limitation, in terms of shipyard repair and upgrade cycles, and the continued deployment cycles for the current war. As Iraq winds down, you may see this arise again. If that is the case, you can expect to see the size of the JSF buy decrease.

The real problem with JSF was the USAF. Even though they were getting the F-22, they refused to take the performance penalty on JSF for their requirements, and forced a land only based variant into the mix. Had the JSF actually been a Joint Fighter, the only variant built would have been the CV capable variant: you can operate off shore with a plane made to carrier ops specs. The inverse is not true. Building the JSf that way would, IMO, have made each cheaper and probably decreased the buy due to overlapping capabiilities being met.

If you are going to complain, a complaint about parochial thinking might be more in line with how the program actually got justified.

But, with a smaller force, you still have to deal with the political reality: when cutting the force, what do the politicans not want to be able to do on the global stage that they can now do? A bit of overlapping capability is good insurance against surprises, or simple screw ups in the field, which do happen.

DR
 
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The (paraphrased) quote showing a desire to achieve peace is from a military figure, the quote showing implacable desire to annihilate an opposing nation is from a civil figure. "Carthago delenda est" was included as nerd humor, not as a serious argument, but the argument about peace through strength has been conventional wisdom for millenia and similar quotes can be found from many prominent historical figures going back at least as far as Pericles. "Si vis pacem, para bellum" just happens to be by far the most famous of those quotes.

Weakness invites attack. Strength discourages it. Can you think of any other reason that neither Philip nor Alexander even attempted to conquer Sparta? The disaster at Tuetoberger wald had absolutely nothing to do with Augustus' decision (immediately afterward) to stop attempts to move the border of the empire eastward past the Rhine, right? Crassus' defeat at Carrhae had nothing whatsoever to do with the Rome's decision to abandon attempts at expanding eastward into Parthian territory?

Actually, I think you'll discover that you are in error. When Alexander marched East, Sparta rose up in uprising, having previously been considered allies (or at least neutral) to Alexander.

Antipater promptly crushed them flat as a pancake, despite their 'prowess' (and the fact that Alexander was missing). Sparta's strength and skill at dying were unmatched and undenyable. Their skill at winning was rather a bit more questionable. One must conclude that they would have been much better served to advance their interests in farming, philosophy, and diplomacy, expanding their population base, their technological prowess, and the effectiveness of their battle plans, rather than spending long-term investment of their resources in their military, which deprived them of the wealth-generating benefits of investment into new capital. If more spartans had trained as blacksmiths, field laborers, and diplomats, they may have discovered they had more than 300 men to throw at a problem, and that their men might have been properly equipped, rather than completely naked.

There's a habit hawks have of championing the military prowess of individual nations as reasons for their success, but mostly the guy who wins is the one with the bigger economy.
 
they may have discovered they had more than 300 men to throw at a problem, and that their men might have been properly equipped, rather than completely naked.
Where do you get this nonsense? Sparta did not send warriors to battle naked. In fact, their armor was arguably the best in the world at that time.


eta: and Leonidas had far more than 300 men at the time. The 300 Spartans (along with about 1,000 other soldiers in the Greek Alliance) were left as a rear guard once it was learned the main Persian army was flanking them elsewhere.

Sparta was not backwards as far as technology goes, nor was it underpopulated.
 
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If more spartans had trained as blacksmiths, field laborers, and diplomats, they may have discovered they had more than 300 men to throw at a problem, and that their men might have been properly equipped, rather than completely naked.

You're about a hundred years off on the timeline, and if you're looking to Frank Miller to inform you about Greek military history, well, you're looking in the wrong place.
 
You're about a hundred years off on the timeline, and if you're looking to Frank Miller to inform you about Greek military history, well, you're looking in the wrong place.

:rolleyes:

I hope everyone else can take some tongue-in-cheek humor.
 
A bit of Necromancy but, has the recent use of the F-35 over Iran changed any opinions on the aircraft?
 
not Iran, but Ukraine is the obvious reason why the idea of Air Superiority through a few very fancy aircraft is probably not very cost effective.

The one reason we can learn from that conflict that the ability to absorb losses and mobilize troops over years and years is what's likely to win you a against any enemy that can call it quits and go home. And the time you have allows you to learn from your opponent and develop cheap but effective counters.
It has always been the problem of massive militaries that they want to win the last war they fought, and cannot really adapt very well during a conflict that isn't really existential for them.
It's why countries like India, Pakistan, Turkey, China and yes, Iran, are likely to be able to weather any short-term attack, no matter the scale.
Heck, even Hamas is perfectly able to keep up its recruiting and training levels despite the entire territory having been turned into rubble.

A.I. etc. in war will probably always be primarily ways to subsidize the defense industry, not a way to win a war. In the face of literally millions of armed men, what kind of fancy toy could actually work if you only have a few tens of thousand defenders?
 
A conflict not involving the F-35.

Tells me nothing about the F-35
Conflict involving one side with significant air superiority, albeit stand-off, than the other.
Gaza, and Lebanon, Iran and Syria palace where Israel has complete air dominance.
And in not one of those cases, holding the sky is completely decisive, but at best provides temporary relief from retaliation (in combination with a very strong interception capability).

Fact is that apart from China there is no country that could even in theory stop the US from gaining air superiority in its territory if it put the time and resources into it, making the F-35 superfluous.
 
Fact is that apart from China there is no country that could even in theory stop the US from gaining air superiority in its territory if it put the time and resources into it, making the F-35 superfluous.
That's a stupid conclusion. Why? Because of your "if". If what it takes to achieve that air superiority is dozens of downed planes and dead pilots, the US is going to be much more hesitant to pour in those resources. Lowering the cost of achieving air superiority is obviously NOT a superfluous capability.
 
not Iran, but Ukraine is the obvious reason why the idea of Air Superiority through a few very fancy aircraft is probably not very cost effective.
Not really sure why you think the Ukrainian invasion says anything about air superiority and "fancy aircraft".

At the start of the war, both sides had planes of similar vintage/capabilities. (It is true that Russia has more planes overall, but it also has more territory and it's Airforce has to cover territory that has nothing to do with Ukraine.)

If Russia DID have a plane like the F35, it would put Ukraine at a significant disadvantage. Although it is not a "air superiority fighter" something like the F35 would dominate the Ukrainian air force and take out most of their air defence systems.

Yeah, Ukraine could still launch attacks like the drone strike that hit Russian bombers, but the ability to launch such attacks depends on having a certain amount of reliable infrastructure.
 
Nitpick: The F-35 is indeed an "air superiority fighter". It's not a dogfighter, true. But that's because dogfighting is a waste of energy and an unnecessary risk, if you have other options. Which modern air forces do. It's a multirole fighter, which is the natural evolution and apotheosis of fighter aircraft.
 
let's put it another way:
Presumably, the US has a limit on the amount of money it can spend. military spending should maximize utility. Historically, the US has always been incredibly strong when it comes to air power, but it is lacking in many other areas.
So probably it would a lot more sense to sprend the taxpayer money than focus on where the US is in no danger of falling behind.
 
let's put it another way:
Presumably, the US has a limit on the amount of money it can spend. military spending should maximize utility. Historically, the US has always been incredibly strong when it comes to air power, but it is lacking in many other areas.
So probably it would a lot more sense to sprend the taxpayer money than focus on where the US is in no danger of falling behind.
First of all, keep in mind that the f35 isn't really that expensive. Yeah, you do occasionally hear of the >$trillion dollar cost, but that is for the entire fleet, and will replace the F16, F18, possibly the A10. (If you added the costs of each of those planes you would get a pretty hefty price tag too) Early copies of the f35 were expensive but as production rates have increased costs have come down (as economies of scale kick in). In fact having a single air frame MIGHT save money as the military does not have to stock spares and train pilots for multiple planes. (At least that is the plan. We will have to see if it works out).

Secondly where exactly do you think the US military is falling behind? They probably have the best logistics (including airlift capabilities), it's Abrams tanks are possibly the best in the world (and we have heard of the military mothballing tanks right off the assembly line so it's not like they are running short), and it has one of the only babies capable of "blue water" activities.

Now it is true that Russia and China have researched things like hypersonic missiles. But I don't think the lack of interest in things like that is due to lack of funds. I think they looked at the technology and thought "it's not practical due to drawbacks".
 
As for Drones, defence is lagging behind at the moment but it always does when a new threat emerges. It will catch up soon enough.
 
As for Drones, defence is lagging behind at the moment but it always does when a new threat emerges. It will catch up soon enough.
Ukraine has certainly used drones successfully against Russia. But the US is not Russia... It's military budget is higher, weapons are (usually) more advanced.

I don't remember any case where a US facility was attacked by large drone swarms, but if it happened I suspect they would probably use something like the phalanx to deal with them.
 
The US military is weird. Sometimes they appear to be light-years ahead of everyone else. Other times, they appear to be woefully inept and behind the times. So either key military bases are already equipped to jam out autonomous drone swarms, or the first such attack will catch them totally by surprise.
 
First of all, keep in mind that the f35 isn't really that expensive. Yeah, you do occasionally hear of the >$trillion dollar cost, but that is for the entire fleet, and will replace the F16, F18, possibly the A10. (If you added the costs of each of those planes you would get a pretty hefty price tag too) Early copies of the f35 were expensive but as production rates have increased costs have come down (as economies of scale kick in). In fact having a single air frame MIGHT save money as the military does not have to stock spares and train pilots for multiple planes. (At least that is the plan. We will have to see if it works out).

Across the three versions, cominality of parts is about 20-25%...
 
The US military is weird. Sometimes they appear to be light-years ahead of everyone else. Other times, they appear to be woefully inept and behind the times. So either key military bases are already equipped to jam out autonomous drone swarms, or the first such attack will catch them totally by surprise.
For now, I think its safe to assume the US is woefully unprepared but I hope DARPA is furiously at work preparing.
 
First of all, keep in mind that the f35 isn't really that expensive. Yeah, you do occasionally hear of the >$trillion dollar cost, but that is for the entire fleet
More to the point, a hefty chunk of that is development costs, and now that it's already developed, those costs are gone. Scrapping the F-35 now can't recoup them. The question now isn't total program costs, but the cost to operate existing planes and to buy new planes vs the capabilities that the F-35 provides, weighed against alternative fighter plane purchases.
 
First of all, keep in mind that the f35 isn't really that expensive. Yeah, you do occasionally hear of the >$trillion dollar cost, but that is for the entire fleet, and will replace the F16, F18, possibly the A10. (If you added the costs of each of those planes you would get a pretty hefty price tag too) Early copies of the f35 were expensive but as production rates have increased costs have come down (as economies of scale kick in). In fact having a single air frame MIGHT save money as the military does not have to stock spares and train pilots for multiple planes. (At least that is the plan. We will have to see if it works out).
Across the three versions, cominality of parts is about 20-25%...
Yes, I have heard figures like the '20-25% commonality' between the variations (which falls far short of the 80% commonality they were originally hoping for.)

However, I have never seen any sort of analysis regarding what they are considering 'common' (based on counting specific parts parts or costs? how its counted if something is counted on 2 variants but not 3), or anything regarding failure/replacement rates.

For example, I believe all 3 variants use the same F135 engine... is that considered "one part"? But the engine itself is composed of hundreds of parts on its own, so should it be considered a collection of parts that add to the commonality? And since the engine is a part that probably needs to get replaced more often than others on the plane, having IT be common across all 3 variations probably means more than things like gun pods that might differ on the various versions but probably don't need replacement through the life of the aircraft.
 
Ukraine has certainly used drones successfully against Russia. But the US is not Russia... It's military budget is higher, weapons are (usually) more advanced.

I don't remember any case where a US facility was attacked by large drone swarms, but if it happened I suspect they would probably use something like the phalanx to deal with them.
Strange as it may seem, stateside military bases don't really have defensive gun emplacements set up.
 
Whatever the answer, it's still a metric ass-ton more parts commonality than...

... F-16 for the USAF
... F/A-18 for the USN
... AV-8B for the USMC
Not to mention the F-18a/c/d hornets that the USMC uses, which are different than the F-18e/f Superhornets which form the backbone of the US Navy aviation fleet.
 
More to the point, a hefty chunk of that is development costs, and now that it's already developed, those costs are gone. Scrapping the F-35 now can't recoup them. The question now isn't total program costs, but the cost to operate existing planes and to buy new planes vs the capabilities that the F-35 provides, weighed against alternative fighter plane purchases.
I gather Britain put in about 10% of those development costs. Plus of course export sales are expected to account for roughly half the production, and they'll be buying parts and support for a long time.
 
A bit of Necromancy but, has the recent use of the F-35 over Iran changed any opinions on the aircraft?
Didn't know this hilarious thread existed. The F-35 is the F-22's little smartass sister. It brings so much to the table now, even before all the add-on toys in development for it's use. All the F-35 pilots love it, and want to be in it in a combat zone. Out at Nellis the thing is a beast during Red Flag. And she can indeed dog-fight. The real issue is it's hard to dog-fight when you can't find the F-35, just ask the Iranians.

Yes, it's expensive. That's the US Navy and the USAF's fault. Apparently we learned nothing from the F-4 Phantom' Swiss Army Knife of the sky theory. On the other hand, thanks to the F-35C we have pocket aircraft carriers again, and the Japanese navy has another Akagi. The F-35 is delivering proof of concept.
 

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