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Saudi Arabia really might have funded 9/11

"When 15 out of 19 people who carry out a terrorist attack are from the same country and you happen to notice that, that's not a conspiracy theory, it's being minimally observant." - A paraphrase of a Dennis Miller joke.
 
Maybe it means that Saudi Arabia is proportionally less welcoming to violent extremists, and that's why you find so many of them leaving Saudi Arabia to find sponsors elsewhere.
 
theprestige said:
Maybe it means that Saudi Arabia is proportionally less welcoming to violent extremists, and that's why you find so many of them leaving Saudi Arabia to find sponsors elsewhere.
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Sponsors like those Saudi consular and embassy employees in the US who assisted Hazmi and Midhar. Perhaps that was out of the goodness of their hearts, helping fellow Saudis and fellow Muslims. I’m sure there’s no need for further investigation.
 
Allen773 said:
Sponsors like those Saudi consular and embassy employees in the US who assisted Hazmi and Midhar. Perhaps that was out of the goodness of their hearts, helping fellow Saudis and fellow Muslims. I’m sure there’s no need for further investigation.
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At least you're trying to follow up on reasonable grounds for suspicion, rather than just doing lazy-ass CT-esque dot-connecting.
 
I'm not sure that this goes here, but KSM's trial was started again on September 7, 2021.
I haven't heard oof any other news regarding the trial.
 
Well, KSM did travel on a Saudi passport, and he and his nephew (not Ramzi Yousef, another one whose name escapes me) along with a few others involved in the Planes Operation raised money from charities that were heavily sponsored or controlled by members of the Saudi royal family. Then there were the two Saudi men who forced an America West flight to land in late 1999 because they were trying to get into the cockpit and were generally acting aggressively toward the cabin crew. They had invitations to a party at the Saudi Embassy and were part of the circle of Arab men in Arizona who were being investigated by Ken Williams at the FBI Field Office in Phoenix for extremist ties and unusual flight school training. Some of these people knew 9/11 pilot hijacker Hani Hanjour. One of them was the son of a Saudi government official who gave money to Omar al-Bayoumi. And one of those guys I mentioned who had tried to get into the cockpit of an America West flight a couple years before 9/11? He was arrested alongside Abu Zubadayah—who himself had some indirect ties to the Saudi Embassy in the US.

But then again, KSM was also employed by a government ministry in Qatar in the mid-90s that was headed by a member of the Qatari royal family, until the US government confronted the Qataris about it and he then fled the country (probably tipped off by his friends in the Qatari government). Plus, there were the members of the UAE’s royal family who were hunting with Osama bin Laden in the late 90s in Afghanistan. And then there are the many ties to the Pakistani military and ISI to various jihadist groups, obviously including the Afghan Taliban and the Haqqani Network—close allies of al-Qaeda.

Seems like a lot of governments, or at least factions within governments, have been complicit in supporting al-Qaeda and its operations to one degree or another. That is certainly not the same thing as any of them having a command and control relationship to the group, of course. But intriguing and real connections, nevertheless.
 
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Allen773 said:
<snip good information>

That is certainly not the same thing as any of them having a command and control relationship to the group, of course. But intriguing and real connections, nevertheless.
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Well stated. Thank you.
 
RE: They wasted all kinds of time and money of fantasies while ignoring serious probl

Axxman300 said:
This is the kind of factual issue that ticks me off about the 9-11 Truthers. They wasted all kinds of time and money of fantasies while ignoring serious problems within the FBI and CIA. Real problems appear to still exist, and nobody is pressing either agency for answers as to why, and what will they do to fix them.

This underlines the reality of the US government, and it makes a secret plot impossible.
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Since replying to posts on this forum, I have consistently focused on the serious problems within the FBI and CIA. My information comes from the Joint Inquiry public hearings and their report, the 9/11 Commission report and hearings, the DOJ IG report, the CIA IG report, and the Defense Exhibits entered into the Moussaoui trial.

I also interviewed numerous FBI agents, including agents who wanted to find Mihdhar and Hazmi before they had time to take part in an al Qaeda terrorist attack and those who wanted to search Moussaoui's possessions. I contacted investigators for the Joint Inquiry Committee, several of the 9/11 Commissioners, and even authors Bob Woodward, "The State of Denial" and Lawrence Wright, "Al Qaeda and the road to 9/11", books on 9/11. I aggregated this information and came up with a complete account of what was known at the CIA and FBI before 9/11. I found out why the attacks on 9/11 were allowed to take place when these two agencies had more than enough information to have prevented this.

Numerous interviews with FBI agents that had wanted to find or investigate the terrorists known to be inside the US, some lasting 5 hours or more, confirmed my conclusions. The overriding conclusion was that the CIA, and CIA managers working at the FBI ITOS unit, deliberately kept secret information from the FBI Cole bombing investigators that would have prevented the attacks on 9/11. This was the information that a massive al Qaeda terrorist attack was about to take place inside the US and that two al Qaeda terrorists, Mihdhar and Hazmi, were inside of the US to participate in this attack. And the key to preventing the attacks on 9/11, information kept secret that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing with Walid bin Attash mastermind of this attack.

Had this information been given to FBI Agent Steve Bongardt, along with the flight numbers these terrorists had flown into the US, information FBI HQ agents who shut down Bongardt had, Bongardt could have found these terrorists quickly. Since these terrorists used their credit cards in their own names to buy flight tickets for 10 of the terrorists on 9/11, this would have located these flights.

Had this information been given to RFU Agent Michael Maltbie or Special FBI Criminal Agent Harry Samit, Samit could have gotten a FISA warrant for Moussaoui's duffle bag. He could have found the receipt from Ramzi bin Al-Shibh, for $14000, and linked his address to his three roommates, three of the pilots on 9/11. They were all still listed on bin Al-Shibh's address card at 54 Marianstrassa, Hamburg, Germany.
 
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paloalto said:
Since replying to posts on this forum, I have consistently focused on the serious problems within the FBI and CIA. My information comes from the Joint Inquiry public hearings and their report, the 9/11 Commission report and hearings, the DOJ IG report, the CIA IG report, and the Defense Exhibits entered into the Moussaoui trial.
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And yet, despite this new focus, you return with the same, tired, long-debunked nonsense you always post here.
Curious. It's almost as if you have learned nothing, and will in fact never allow evidence to change your mind.

paloalto said:
I also interviewed numerous FBI agents, including agents who wanted to find Mihdhar and Hazmi before they had time to take part in an al Qaeda terrorist attack and those who wanted to search Moussaoui's possessions. I contacted investigators for the Joint Inquiry Committee, several of the 9/11 Commissioners, and even authors Bob Woodward, "The State of Denial" and Lawrence Wright, "Al Qaeda and the road to 9/11", books on 9/11. I aggregated this information and came up with a complete account of what was known at the CIA and FBI before 9/11. I found out why the attacks on 9/11 were allowed to take place when these two agencies had more than enough information to have prevented this.

Numerous interviews with FBI agents that had wanted to find or investigate the terrorists known to be inside the US, some lasting 5 hours or more, confirmed my conclusions. The overriding conclusion was that the CIA, and CIA managers working at the FBI ITOS unit, deliberately kept secret information from the FBI Cole bombing investigators that would have prevented the attacks on 9/11.
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OK, if you say so. Please quote the specific FBI agents you interviewed, and also please highlight the differences between what they told you and what the 9/11 Commission revealed about the problems with inter-agency information sharing. Otherwise, this is just the same old same old.
 
Cosmic Yak said:
And yet, despite this new focus, you return with the same, tired, long-debunked nonsense you always post here.
Curious. It's almost as if you have learned nothing, and will in fact never allow evidence to change your mind.
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You have never debunked anything I have posted. You in fact actually debunked yourself with your absurd claims and superficial knowledge of the events on 9/11 prior to this attack. and apparently did not even know it. I did not want to waste my time debunking posts that show no real knowledge of 9/11.

I have listed my sources. If you claim great knowledge of 9/11 then let everyone know what were your sources? What FBI agents did you talk to? What investigators on the 9/11 investigations did you interview? What did the 9/11 Commission or the Joint Inquiry Commission tell you? What reports from 9/11 investigations have you read?


Cosmic Yak said:
OK, if you say so. Please quote the specific FBI agents you interviewed, and also please highlight the differences between what they told you and what the 9/11 Commission revealed about the problems with inter-agency information sharing. Otherwise, this is just the same old same old.
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My question to the FBI agent: At the meeting held at the FBI field office in New York City on June 11, 2001, did FBI HQ Agent Dina Corsi ask you if you recognized Fahad al-Quso in the photos shown to you? Or did CIA officer Clark Shannon ask you if you recognized anyone in these photos?

FBI Agent: I can’t talk about this meeting. But I will say no FBI agent in any interrogation of this nature would ever say a person’s name who was the target of an investigation. This could very well taint the answer they got.

NOTE: This meeting was central to understanding the events prior to 9/11. The 9/11 investigations wanted to know why photos of Mihdhar and Hazmi, two al Qaeda terrorists on AA 77 that hit the Pentagon, were shown to the Cole bombing investigators 3 months before this attack. These investigations wanted to know why the CIA did not give the FBI Cole bombing investigators the information they already had. This information would have prevented these attacks. Since none of this information had been derived using a FISA warrant, there was no restrictions of any kind on giving the information the CIA had to the FBI.

Corsi claimed to DOJ IG investigators, after the attacks on 9/11, that the CIA and FBI HQ wanted to know if Fahad al-Quso was in the photos. If Quso was in one of the photos, Corsi said it would tie the Kuala Lumpur meeting to the planning of the Cole bombing and directly connect Mihdhar and Hazmi to this bombing.

This excuse is absurd for several reasons. First, one photo had only Mihdhar and Hazmi in it, and the CIA knew exactly what they looked like and knew Fahad al-Quso was not in this photo shown to the New York FBI agents. Second, the CIA knew that the mastermind of the Cole bombing Walid bin Attash had been at this meeting and had even been identified in a photo going to the meeting. This directly tied this meeting to the Cole bombing. Third, the CIA knew Walid bin Attash had flown from Kuala Lumpur to Bangkok to get the $36,000 Fahad al-Quso was trying to deliver to him. But Quso could not get to Kuala Lumpur because he could not get a visa to travel to Kuala Lumpur. Had Fahad al-Quso delivered the $36,000 to bin Attash in Kuala Lumpur, bin Attash would not have had to travel to Bangkok to get this money.


My question to the FBI agent: Do you remember the email Corsi sent you on August 29, 2001, which said: ‘if at such time evidence is developed of a substantial Federal crime, (by Mihdhar and Hazmi), that information will be passed over the wall per the proper procedures for a follow-up investigation ( by your group)?

FBI Agent: Yes, I remember that.

My question to the FBI agent: Were you aware that Corsi admitted to DOJ IG investigators after 9/11 that she knew by August 22, 2001, one week before she sent you the email on August 29, 2001, that Mihdhar and Hazmi had participated in planning the Cole bombing with Walid bin Attash. That is a substantial Federal crime since 17 US sailors were murdered in this attack

FBI Agent: My GOD, where in the Christ sake did you find that!

My Answer: That is in the DOJ IG report. I will send you the entire report and the page numbers for this information.

My question to FBI agent: Were you aware when your boss Al Soufan asked Louis Freeh in November 2000 if he would go to the CIA and George Tenet and ask them if they had any information on Walid bin Attash or any al Qaeda planning meeting in southeast Asia in January 2000?

FBI Agent: Yes, I have a clear recollection of that.

My question to the FBI agent: Freeh told Soufan that the CIA had none of this information. But according to the 9/11 Commission report, the DOJ IG, and CIA IG reports, Freeh had already been given this information by the NSA and then by Tenet himself on this meeting with the full name of one terrorist at that meeting, Khalid al-Mihdhar. Were you aware Freeh had sabotaged your investigation of the Cole bombing and hidden information that you could have used to prevent the attacks on 9/11?

FBI Agent: My GOD, where did you find that?

My answer: Page 181 of the 9/11 Commission report, 238-239 of the DOJ IG report. The full name Khalid al-Mihdhar was in his January 2000 daily briefing papers. Note The CIA IG report says Tenet gave Freeh the full name Khalid al-Mihdhar.

After a silence of 30 seconds, FBI Agent: This shows that people at that level have bad memories!

Questions to Minneapolis FBI agents and managers on the Moussaoui investigation:

My Question: You had the INS arrest Zacarias Moussaoui. You thought he was training on a B747 so that he could participate with other terrorists to hijack this type of plane and fly it into the WTC towers. If there are two WTC towers and two hijacked aircraft with 4 to 5 terrorists per plane, arresting one terrorist would leave 7 to 9 as part of this plot. Did you undertake any effort to find these other terrorists?

FBI Answer: FBI headquarters just blew us off. They thought we were spinning up a crazy story. We knew they never would have approved us starting an investigation to locate other terrorists.
 
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So where is the smoking gun that leads you to conclude that the CIA and FBI leadership wanted an al-Qaeda terrorist attack on the US homeland (or anywhere else) to happen?
 
paloalto said:
You have never debunked anything I have posted. You in fact actually debunked yourself with your absurd claims and superficial knowledge of the events on 9/11 prior to this attack. and apparently did not even know it. I did not want to waste my time debunking posts that show no real knowledge of 9/11.
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Yeah you said that the last time, and the time before that. In both cases, I linked you to the debunking, which was based on the 9/11 Commission. I'm not going to bother again, because you will just keep repeating the same denials, presumably hoping that if you do that enough times, it will magically become true.
 
From The Atlantic:
New 9/11 Evidence Points to Deep Saudi Complicity

A new filing in a lawsuit brought by the families of 9/11 victims against the government of Saudi Arabia alleges that al-Qaeda had significant, indeed decisive, state support for its attacks. Officials of the Saudi government, the plaintiffs’ attorneys contend, formed and operated a network inside the United States that provided crucial assistance to the first cohort of 9/11 hijackers to enter the country.
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https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/september-11-attacks-saudi-arabia-lawsuit/678430/

Link to the filing: https://www.floridabulldog.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Redacted-Brief.pdf
 
Was it done via bills passed in the government, or was it done unofficially by people in the government or by people related to people in the government?
 
theprestige said:
On which page can we find the evidence that supports this allegation?
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From the introduction to the memo, Page 7 of the PDF:

The record developed through jurisdictional discovery, and long secret investigative materials declassified pursuant to Executive Order 14040 (E.O.), now provides overwhelming evidence that Bayoumi, Thumairy, Ismail Mana, and additional Saudi government officials and agents were acting within the core of their functions for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in coordinating an essential support network for pro-jihadist extremists, including the first-arriving 9/11 hijackers, Nawaf Al Hazmi and Khalid Al Mihdhar. That evidence shows that:

(1) Bayoumi, Thumairy, and Mana were officials and agents serving as part of a covert and illegal Saudi government platform established to promote and support the Saudi Ministry of Islamic Affairs’ extremist agenda in the United States;

(2) the officials and agents tasked by the Saudi Arabia to work in this enterprise had extensive supportive dealings with terrorists in their work;

(3) their core work for Saudi Arabia regularly involved hosting and supporting pro-jihadist extremists on missions to the United States;

(4) Saudi Arabia imbued the officials and agents it tasked to work in the enterprise with diplomatic protections and/or cover to shield their illegal activities from scrutiny of U.S. authorities; and

(5) Saudi Arabia’s officials and agents acted in close coordination with one another and others to mobilize an essential support network for Hazmi and Mihdhar, who were “ill-prepared for a mission in the United States” and were “unlikely” to have come to America without arranging in advance to receive assistance,” leveraging the very resources provided to them by the Saudi government to do so.
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Page 22:

As the former head of the [FBI'S Arabian Peninsula Squad], Brian Weidner, testifies in his declaration, the APS was formed in response to evidence uncovered in the FBI’s 9/11 investigation revealing that “Saudi government institutions, personnel, and agents inside the United States were fueling and supporting religious extremism....These “activities posed a serious threat to the national security of the United States.”

Weidner attests that the July 2021 EC “contains what I recognize as specific overall factual findings of the AP Squad, based on our investigations into the operations of the Saudi Arabian Government on American soil, which I supervised until 2008.”

The APS’s specific factual findings collected and summarized in the July 2021 EC document Saudi Arabia’s “creation of and support and direction for a network of offices and personnel involved with militant Salafi Islamic activities and proselytization within the United States.” It further confirms the presence of Saudi intelligence officers within the Embassy’s Islamic Affairs office and Islamic Affairs personnel’s involvement in carrying out intelligence in the United States. It also documents the APS’s determinations that various entities funded by and operating within the Kingdom’s Wahhabi/Salafi proselytizing network were closely tied to terrorism and Al Qaeda.
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Page 25:

Over the decade following its establishment and through September 11, 2001, the Saudi government’s MOIA platform in Southern California served continuously as a hub for promoting jihadism and for hosting, supporting, and providing cover for Islamist extremists and terrorists. Thumairy and Bayoumi, both of whom are “known to have provided substantial assistance” to hijackers Hazmi and Mihdhar, were key members of this radical enterprise, and simultaneously officials and agents of the Saudi government in those roles. Their collaborators working within that framework included Ismail Mana, Mutaeb Al Sudairy, Adel Al Sadhan, Majed Al Mersal, Abdullah Al Jaithen, Khalid Al Sowailem, Musaed Al Jarrah, Mohamed Al Muhanna, Omar Abdi Mohamed...among others. All of those individuals were also officials and agents of the Saudi government and many of them, again like Thumairy and Bayoumi, had extensive ties to terrorism and Al Qaeda
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I recommend reading the ful PDF when you have a chance.
 
Don't know if this is really new or not, but investigators for the 9/11 families have uncovered a startling video, taken by Omar Al-Bayoumi, in which he travels around Washington DC, filming major buildings and talking about his intention to "report in detail what is there." At one point he mentions "the plan." The video was found in a search of Al-Bayoumi's flat in London, and reportedly turned over to the FBI shortly after the attacks.
 
The question for me was always whether they wittingly funded it. If they gave them money and assistance, but had no idea what they planned to do, that's a little different.
 
Puppycow said:
The question for me was always whether they wittingly funded it. If they gave them money and assistance, but had no idea what they planned to do, that's a little different.
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I guess it depends exactly what the understanding was. If they were expecting him to support the Taliban in their jihad, that's one thing. If they were expecting him to make a major attack on the Great Satan, but didn't know the operational details, that's something else entirely.
 
Brainster said:
Don't know if this is really new or not, but investigators for the 9/11 families have uncovered a startling video, taken by Omar Al-Bayoumi, in which he travels around Washington DC, filming major buildings and talking about his intention to "report in detail what is there." At one point he mentions "the plan." The video was found in a search of Al-Bayoumi's flat in London, and reportedly turned over to the FBI shortly after the attacks.
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Yeah this is rather...eyebrow-raising, to put it mildly.
 
Allen773 said:
A lot of this comes from FBI documents.
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I don't understand. Are you claiming that the FBI's allegations are the evidence that those allegations are true? Do you not want the FBI to present the evidence that supports their allegations rather than simply asserting that their allegations are supported by evidence?
 
You have to read the FBI report, it's here:

https://vault.fbi.gov/9-11-attacks-...sive-to-executive-order-14040-2-d-part-2/view

A whole lot is redacted, and in the end the FBI looks like it's trying to fill in holes for things they should have been on top of in the late 1990s. There is a lot of supposition, and not much in the way of hard evidence. Don't know if this is by design, or their blind spot was worse than we thought (which is more likely the case).

And keep in mind this is against the backdrop of a civil case. If there is a document and or transcript of an intercepted conversation between Saudi government employees and Al Qaeda it hasn't been made public. Doesn't mean there was no Saudi help, just that there is no evidence, just FBI assumptions, deductions, and allegations that are internal Bureau discussions, and not official positions.

To put it another way, we're still in the same place we were on 9/12/2001 on this issue.
 
A Saudi official took a video of the Washington monument and the capitol. That does not support the claim that Saudi Arabia funded the 9/11 attacks.
 
Puppycow said:
The question for me was always whether they wittingly funded it. If they gave them money and assistance, but had no idea what they planned to do, that's a little different.
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Is this an important question?

The Saudis have been funding Muslim extremist education for decades as the means to offset their pact with the Great Satan and their debauchery.
Just because they might not have known that their funds would be used this way doesn't excuse them from giving the funds to people who would.
The law puts up a very high bar for providing that you only unwittingly supported terrorists.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
The law puts up a very high bar for providing that you only unwittingly supported terrorists.
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And as Axxman pointed out, these documents are part of a civil case brought by a large group of 9/11 victims’s families against the Kingdom, a case they could only make because of the Justice Against Sponsors of Terrorism Act (JASTA) which provides a means for plaintiffs to bypass the diplomatic immunity of foreign governments and find them civilly liable in US courts in cases of terrorist acts on US soil.

What the plaintiffs in this case have argued is that a group of Saudi officials and agents who were employed in their embassy in Washington and their consulate in Los Angeles not only provided substantial assistance to some of the 9/11 hijackers, but that such assistance was decisive in enabling them to carry out the 9/11 attacks. They point in particular to Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Midhar, who not only had extensively reported contact with some of those aforementioned Saudi officials and agents (particularly Omar al-Bayoumi, Fahd al-Thumairy, and their associates) but, unlike the Hamburg cell hijackers Mohammed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, and Ziad Jarrah, had no experience in the West, spoke no English, and certainly didn’t know anyone in America when they arrived in early 2000.

It’s thus perfectly reasonable to assume that al-Qaeda would have arranged for Hazmi and Midhar to have received help from fellow travelers who were already established in the US. And Thumairy, Bayoumi, and many others of those named in these FBI documents had, or are alleged to have had, multiple ties to al-Qaeda and other jihadist/extremist groups.

Remember, civil suit = preponderance of evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt. Certainly a lower standard of evidentiary proof required here.
 
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The Great Zaganza said:
Is this an important question?

The Saudis have been funding Muslim extremist education for decades as the means to offset their pact with the Great Satan and their debauchery.
Just because they might not have known that their funds would be used this way doesn't excuse them from giving the funds to people who would.
The law puts up a very high bar for providing that you only unwittingly supported terrorists.
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Read The Looming Tower. Osama's charitable arm in Afghanistan was not called Death to the Great Satan, it was named Social Services. Tens or even hundreds of millions went through its coffers; in total the 9-11 attacks probably cost about $500,000.
 
Oof.

'Co-opted’ by Saudi intelligence, FBI informant allegedly played vital role in 9/11 preparations

Dr. Abdussattar Shaikh, the FBI informant who shared his home with Flight 77 hijackers Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar, had in fact been “co-opted” by a Saudi intelligence asset with whom he shared a close, years-long relationship.

The allegation surfaced in federal court in New York in the long-running civil court case in which families and survivors of 9/11 are suing Saudi Arabia for the role the Kingdom’s employees allegedly played in the attack. It is contained in a document filed by the plaintiffs.
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Some elements to Shaikh’s story that have not yet emerged in court – the assertion of a former senior FBI counterterrorism agent, identified only as CS-22, that the “post 9/11 investigation into Shaikh’s activities showed that he was receiving funds from the Saudi Arabian government while he was serving as an informant for the FBI.” CS-22’s statement is contained in a July 2021 sworn declaration by Donald Canestraro, a defense team investigator for Guantanamo detainee Ammar al Baluchi.

Then there is the fact that, although Shaikh repeatedly said the hijackers had not “used” his phone, later analysis of the records showed that they did at least receive calls on it. In Summer 2000 there were a flurry of calls to the house from the phone of a young Saudi prince, Nawaf bin Saud bin Mohammed bin al Saud. Between June and November, meanwhile, there were 16 calls from an al Qaeda safe house in Pakistan, FBI reports say.
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https://www.floridabulldog.org/2024/09/co-opted-saudi-intelligence-fbi-informant-shaikh-allegedly-played-role-9-11-preparations/
 
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