• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

RFK Jr, vaccines, and autism

Chris_Halkides

Penultimate Amazing
Chris_Halkides
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
12,497
I could not find a thread on this subject. NBC wrote about remarks he made which have not previously been reported. In 2019 he said, "'The institution, CDC and the vaccine program, is more important than the children that it’s supposed to protect.' And 'It’s the same reason we had a pedophile scandal in the Catholic Church,' he continued." NBC also reported, "At a 2013 speech for AutismOne, self-described as the largest parent-run autism conference, Kennedy vilified a nebulous group, including vaccine scientists, involved in what he falsely claimed was a conspiracy to hide vaccines as the cause of autism." Kennedy also likened the CDC to the abuse scandal in the Catholic Church. NBC also reported: "'But I would do a lot to see Paul Offit, all these ‘good people,’ behind bars.' Dr. Paul Offit is the director of the Vaccine Education Center at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia and the co-inventor of a rotavirus vaccine."

These comments are...very concerning.
 

‘We learned the hard way’: Samoa remembers a deadly measles outbreak and a visit from RFK Jr​

In the small island country of Samoa, lives have been forever altered by an outbreak of the disease in 2019 that caused at least 83 deaths and 1,867 hospitalisations, mostly of babies and young children. Thousands more fell sick. The preventable illness was able to spread through the small, closely knit population of about 200,000 due to record low vaccination rates – stemming from a medical vaccination error, the Samoan government’s public health mismanagement, and fuelled by anti-vaccination sentiment, including by Donald Trump’s pick to lead the US health department, Robert F Kennedy Jr.
Click to expand...
www.theguardian.com

‘We learned the hard way’: Samoa remembers a deadly measles outbreak and a visit from RFK Jr

A few months before the outbreak in 2019, Kennedy travelled to Samoa and met with anti-vaccine figures, contributing to what health experts claim was a ‘significant disinformation campaign’
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Wikipedia on Paul Offit: "Offit has published more than 130 papers in medical and scientific journals in the areas of rotavirus-specific immune responses and vaccine safety..." The Centers for Disease Control on Rotavirus "Rotavirus vaccine is the best way to protect your child against rotavirus disease." The World Socialist Web Site on RFK and the Samoan measles outbreak: "Samoa’s low immunisation levels were exacerbated by a medical mishap in July 2018 that killed two babies, prompting widespread distrust in vaccinations. Two nurses were prosecuted and jailed for negligent manslaughter after mistakenly diluting the powdered vaccine with a dose of anaesthetic instead of water." The two deaths were a tragedy for the families, but obviously they were not the fault of the vaccines. The WSWS continued, "In this environment Kennedy turned up in Samoa, four months before the measles outbreak, agitating against vaccinations...While in Samoa, Kennedy met with Taylor Winterstein, a prominent Samoan-Australian “influencer.” On Instagram, Winterstein wrote: “I am deeply honoured to have been in the presence of a man I believe is, can and will change the course of history.” In a cynical pitch to the deeply religious Samoan community, she declared Kennedy’s visit was “divinely timed” and added hashtags used by anti-vaxxers." Changing the course of history prompts a question, namely "will it be for better or worse?"
 
No thread of this nature should ever leave out the fact, yes, FACT, that the Bastard Wakefield started this shameful nonsense in the first place, by faking his research linking vaccinations with autism, and then standing behind that fallacy for years and gaining die-hard followers the whole time.
RFK Jr. just picked up the slime covered ball and ran with it.
 
RFK Jr's long-standing anti-vax fuckwittery has been covered very well for a loooooong time on Respectful Insolence and Science-Based Medicine, to name but 2.

Yer man is a serious numpty, with a good side order of being an eejit.
 
Carrot Flower King, Perhaps I should have said that I did not find a thread here in the CT forum on the subject. Mike!, I agree but there is another branch to this story. In 2000 pathologist John O'Leary and coauthors claimed to find the measles virus in intestinal biopsies, and their claims, if true, would have supported a link between the measles virus and autism, according a genuine expert, Stephen Bustin. The story is complex, and I don't believe that I have plumbed its depths. Professor Bustin's article walks the reader through a number scientific shortcomings within O'Leary's work in the area of reverse transcriptase-based quantitative polymerase chain reaction. To all, one purpose of this thread is better to understand which of RFK, Jr.'s ideas are conspiracy theories and which (if any) are merely wrong.

Long time pharmaceutical blogger Derek Lowe wrote this past summer, "I have mentioned Kennedy here and there over the years, mainly during the time when I was writing about the controversy over thimerosal and autism. Many of the links in that 2005 post are (understandably) not in working order any more, but Wikipedia has a thorough overview. The claim was that this organomercurial, added to vaccines as a preservative, was the cause of autism in otherwise-healthy vaccinated children. Suffice it to say that this connection has been investigated thoroughly for many years now, and that no such connection has ever been shown to exist...Kennedy's views on science and medicine are not only wrong, they are actively harmful and destructive. He has used them to make a great deal of money, and he has lied about them to interviewers and reporters whenever he finds it convenient."

Derek Lowe returned to RFK, Jr. a couple of weeks ago, writing, "He is often described in the press as a "vaccine skeptic", but that's far too forgiving: he is outright anti-vaccination, and putting such a person in such a position of responsibility is going to get people killed." Now that I have read Derek Lowe's commentary, I wish that I had broadened the scope of this thread to include other CTs.
 
Last edited:
Mike! said:
No thread of this nature should ever leave out the fact, yes, FACT, that the Bastard Wakefield started this shameful nonsense in the first place, by faking his research linking vaccinations with autism, and then standing behind that fallacy for years and gaining die-hard followers the whole time.
RFK Jr. just picked up the slime covered ball and ran with it.
Click to expand...
Andrew Wakefield, or to give him is proper medical title, Andrew Wakefield.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
Carrot Flower King, Perhaps I should have said that I did not find a thread here in the CT forum on the subject. Mike!, I agree but there is another branch to this story. In 2000 pathologist John O'Leary and coauthors claimed to find the measles virus in intestinal biopsies, and their claims, if true, would have supported a link between the measles virus and autism, according a genuine expert, Stephen Bustin. The story is complex, and I don't believe that I have plumbed its depths. Professor Bustin's article walks the reader through a number scientific shortcomings within O'Leary's work in the area of reverse transcriptase-based quantitative polymerase chain reaction. To all, one purpose of this thread is better to understand which of RFK, Jr.'s ideas are conspiracy theories and which (if any) are merely wrong.

Long time pharmaceutical blogger Derek Lowe wrote this past summer, "I have mentioned Kennedy here and there over the years, mainly during the time when I was writing about the controversy over thimerosal and autism. Many of the links in that 2005 post are (understandably) not in working order any more, but Wikipedia has a thorough overview. The claim was that this organomercurial, added to vaccines as a preservative, was the cause of autism in otherwise-healthy vaccinated children. Suffice it to say that this connection has been investigated thoroughly for many years now, and that no such connection has ever been shown to exist...Kennedy's views on science and medicine are not only wrong, they are actively harmful and destructive. He has used them to make a great deal of money, and he has lied about them to interviewers and reporters whenever he finds it convenient."

Derek Lowe returned to RFK, Jr. a couple of weeks ago, writing, "He is often described in the press as a "vaccine skeptic", but that's far too forgiving: he is outright anti-vaccination, and putting such a person in such a position of responsibility is going to get people killed." Now that I have read Derek Lowe's commentary, I wish that I had broadened the scope of this thread to include other CTs.
Click to expand...
There have been no organomercurial preservatives added to any vaccines since the 1980's. This is why vaccines must be stored properly and why they have a use-by date. Previously, it was only MMR vaccine with trace organomercurial compounds. No other vaccines had them.

This was also well before Wakefield's bodged-up lie of a study took place. He claimed there was mercury in the test MMR vaccines. There was not. But his lie got blown out of all proportion: ALL vaccines have COPIOUS amounts of DEADLY MERCURY! Enter RFK Jr...
 
arthwollipot said:
Andrew Wakefield, or to give him is proper medical title, Andrew Wakefield.
Click to expand...

This is the point where I feel obliged to point out that when Wakefield undertook his medical training, right up to becoming fully cooked as a consultant gastro-enterologist, he will have had utterly sod all training on autism. He may have done some paediatric placement, but he will not have worked in CAMHS or learning difficulties. And even then CAMHS was only just beginning to get on board with autism.

Chris H: fair point.
 
At The Atlantic Benjamin Mazer wrote, "A certain amount of sycophancy toward the more bizarre elements of the coalition is also common. [Professor Marty] Makary and [Professor Jay] Bhattacharya have both praised Kennedy in extravagant terms despite his repeated falsehoods: “He wrote a 500-page book on Dr. Fauci and the medical industrial complex. A hundred percent of it was true,” Makary said of a volume that devotes multiple chapters to casting doubt on HIV as the cause of AIDS. Earlier this month, Bhattacharya called Kennedy a “disruptor” whose views on vaccines and AIDS are merely “eccentric.” (Bhattacharya has also suggested that the vaccine skeptic and conspiracy theorist Robert Malone would be an “amazing leader” for the country’s health agencies.)" Professor Makary may lead the FDA, and Professor Bhattacharya may lead the National Institutes of Health.
 
Last edited:
IIUC they have been nominated for these two respective positions, so perhaps calling them the presumptive heads of the two organizations is a good way to put it. Here is an excerpt from an article from someone at McGill University on RFK, Jr: "It is clear to me, from watching Medical Racism and being familiar with Kennedy’s campaign against vaccines, that this is not about medical atrocities committed against Black people. This is propaganda. This is the stomach-churning exploitation of historical abuse and contemporary failings, peppered with falsehoods, to convince a marginalized audience already at increased risk for COVID-19 that safe and effective vaccines are poisonous."

The BBC wrote, "Dr David Elliman, a consultant in community child health at Great Ormond Street Hospital in London, said RFK Jr has perpetuated myths around vaccination with 'an utter disregard for the evidence.'" The Autistic Self Advocacy Network wrote, "The anti-vaccine movement has led to a wave of fake “autism cures,” many of which have very real health risks. Kennedy recently promoted two of these fake cures when he accused the FDA of suppressing “hyperbaric therapies, chelating compounds.” Hyperbaric therapy, a treatment for decompression sickness in divers, has been promoted as a fake autism cure in spite of a complete lack of evidence and associated health risks. Chelation, a treatment for heavy metal poisoning, is another fake cure, and its off-label use for autism has been associated with at least one death."

As I read more about Mr. Kennedy's views, I see additional causes for concern.
 
Last edited:
RFK, Jr wrote on X, "FDA's war on public health is about to end. This includes its aggressive suppression of psychedelics, peptides, stem cells, raw milk, hyperbaric therapies, chelating compounds, ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, vitamins, clean foods, sunshine, exercise, nutraceuticals and anything else that advances human health and can't be patented by Pharma. If you work for the FDA and are part of this corrupt system, I have two messages for you: 1. Preserve your records, and 2. Pack your bags." Respectful Insolence wrote, "When I first wrote about RFK Jr.’s antivax conspiracy-fest of an article two decades ago, never in my worst nightmares did I envision that he might be on the cusp of being put in charge of the nation’s healthcare policy, regulatory, and research apparatus...He has been spreading antivaccine misinformation, disinformation, and conspiracy theories for close to 20 years now, and, more recently, has increasingly entered the “wellness” grift side of things."
 
All that nonsense will end shortly after the next viral pandemic arrives in the USA, and it will be RFK Jr. packing his bags.

The US public has been through a pandemic in very recent memory. Whether any lessons are learned or not about snake-oil salesmen, useless folk-remedies, and vaccine-denial will be the question. Another question will be how many American children will need to die before these lessons are re-learned. Given COVID took 4.5 million US lives, the answer could be: quite a lot more than that...

Interestingly, if RFK Jr. is true to his own policies, he could be among the first to succumb to the next deadly disease that will inevitably hit the USA.
 
Respectful Insolence wrote, "There are many contradictions inherent in the MAHA movement that RFK Jr. has forged with Donald Trump. For example, RFK Jr. rails against the FDA as being too beholden to drug companies and quick to approve products without adequate evidence of efficacy and safety, while also wanting to lower the bar for the approval of the various quack treatments that he espouses, such as ivermectin for COVID-19 and cancer."

NBC reported, "The Immunization Safety Office maintains the Vaccine Safety Datalink, which houses data from patient health records used to conduct studies about rare adverse events following immunization. This raw data is available to researchers, but isn’t public for a variety of reasons including concerns over privacy, misrepresentation of data, and manpower. Kennedy suggested in the 2017 speech that the walled access is nefarious. “Oh, they’ve hidden it, and they won’t let anybody in it, except their own guys who cherry-pick and design these fabricated studies and change the protocols..."

Has anyone ever tried asking RFK Jr why he believes that, for example, chelation therapy is effective against autism or how he knows about what is in the raw data mentioned above? I don't understand where his certainty comes from, or maybe I do.
 
Last edited:
Mike! said:
No thread of this nature should ever leave out the fact, yes, FACT, that the Bastard Wakefield started this shameful nonsense in the first place, by faking his research linking vaccinations with autism, and then standing behind that fallacy for years and gaining die-hard followers the whole time.
RFK Jr. just picked up the slime covered ball and ran with it.
Click to expand...
Was Wakefield the one who, when confronted with the massive Danish study showing zero statistical difference in autism diagnosis rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, responded "I don't give a ◊◊◊◊"?
 
Norman Alexander said:
All that nonsense will end shortly after the next viral pandemic arrives in the USA, and it will be RFK Jr. packing his bags.

The US public has been through a pandemic in very recent memory. Whether any lessons are learned or not about snake-oil salesmen, useless folk-remedies, and vaccine-denial will be the question. Another question will be how many American children will need to die before these lessons are re-learned.
Given COVID took 4.5 million US lives, the answer could be: quite a lot more than that...

Interestingly, if RFK Jr. is true to his own policies, he could be among the first to succumb to the next deadly disease that will inevitably hit the USA.
Click to expand...


In order to be accurate, I have to say I question your data in the section I hilited.


Provisional COVID-19 Mortality Surveillance

National Center for Health Statistics
www.cdc.gov www.cdc.gov
 
MBDK said:
In order to be accurate, I have to say I question your data in the section I hilited.


Provisional COVID-19 Mortality Surveillance

National Center for Health Statistics
www.cdc.gov www.cdc.gov
Click to expand...
I stand corrected. It has been only 1.2 million US dead from COVID. That's a much sunnier result, isn't it. ;)

Of course, that's in comparison to the 7.1 million deaths globally. Of which the USA makes up the largest percentage (17%). So the USA is winning on that score too! But RFK Jr. is going to get an even better result with the next pandemic, don't you worry!
 
Norman Alexander said:
I stand corrected. It has been only 1.2 million US dead from COVID. That's a much sunnier result, isn't it. ;)

Of course, that's in comparison to the 7.1 million deaths globally. Of which the USA makes up the largest percentage (17%). So the USA is winning on that score too! But RFK Jr. is going to get an even better result with the next pandemic, don't you worry!
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure he won't be confirmed by the Senate, anyway. Despite the media representations, I think there will be enough Republican senators that understand the potential harm inherent in assigning RFK Jr. to be the secretary of Health and Human Services.
 
sinnikal said:
I have no doubt that RFK Jr has not the first idea how to read a scientific paper, let alone understand one.
Click to expand...

Course not: he's a lawyer by trade. They aren't bothered by mere evidence, just that their side wins (I have shared houses with law students and articled clerks...

Not to mention he probably hasn't studied any science beyond junior high school or similar.
 
Foster Zygote said:
Was Wakefield the one who, when confronted with the massive Danish study showing zero statistical difference in autism diagnosis rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, responded "I don't give a ◊◊◊◊"?
Click to expand...

IIRC, Wakefield did challenge the stats in the 2002 Danish paper, 'cos reasons, which good ole Jakey Crosby trumpeted for a while. But I don't recall anything else he might have said.
 
I would like to return to the subject of John O'Leary's results. "The claim, made in 2002 by a team led by Dublin pathologist John O‘Leary, that measles virus RNA had been detected in gut biopsies of children with autism, appeared to provide powerful vindication for Wakefield's hypothesis that a distinctive inflammatory bowel condition — dubbed ‘autistic enterocolitis’ — was the mediating link between MMR and autism...[Molecular biologist Stephen] Bustin's devastating testimony effectively destroyed the only piece of positive evidence that has been produced in support of the MMR-autism thesis since it was launched nearly a decade ago." Those interested in how RNA should and should not be quantitated could profit from reading Professor Bustin's paper, cited above.
 
President-elect Trump was quoted in an interview: "'I think somebody has to find out,' Trump said in an exclusive interview with “Meet the Press” moderator Kristen Welker. Welker noted in a back-and-forth that studies have shown childhood vaccines prevent about 4 million deaths worldwide every year, have found no connection between vaccines and autism, and that rises in autism diagnoses are attributable to increased screening and awareness. 'If you go back 25 years ago,' Trump claimed, 'you had very little autism. Now you have it.'


"'Something is going on,' Trump added. 'I don’t know if it’s vaccines. Maybe it’s chlorine in the water, right? You know, people are looking at a lot of different things.' It was unclear whether Trump was referring to opposition by Kennedy and others to fluoride being added to drinking water."

I assume that this means someone who is ultimately under the direction of Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. If so, what evidence is there that Mr. Kennedy is open to rational persuasion? Mr. Kennedy has in the past, for example, pointed to poppers as being the true cause of AIDS, a notion that I consider dubious. I am bringing poppers up not as a tangent but to suggest that the answer to my question is that there is evidence that Mr. Kennedy does not approach these kinds of questions scientifically.
 
Last edited:
Chris_Halkides said:
President-elect Trump was quoted in an interview: "'I think somebody has to find out,' Trump said in an exclusive interview with “Meet the Press” moderator Kristen Welker. Welker noted in a back-and-forth that studies have shown childhood vaccines prevent about 4 million deaths worldwide every year, have found no connection between vaccines and autism, and that rises in autism diagnoses are attributable to increased screening and awareness. 'If you go back 25 years ago,' Trump claimed, 'you had very little autism. Now you have it.'


"'Something is going on,' Trump added. 'I don’t know if it’s vaccines. Maybe it’s chlorine in the water, right? You know, people are looking at a lot of different things.' It was unclear whether Trump was referring to opposition by Kennedy and others to fluoride being added to drinking water."

I assume that this means someone who is ultimately under the direction of Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. If so, what evidence is there that Mr. Kennedy is open to rational persuasion? Mr. Kennedy has in the past, for example, pointed to poppers as being the true cause of AIDS, a notion that I consider dubious. I am bringing poppers up not as a tangent but to
suggest that the answer to my question is that there is evidence that Mr. Kennedy does not approach these kinds of questions scientifically.
Click to expand...
I must say I admire your even-handedness. I have also heard some evidence that polar bears might pose a threat to unescorted hikers.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
President-elect Trump was quoted in an interview: "'I think somebody has to find out,' Trump said in an exclusive interview with “Meet the Press” moderator Kristen Welker. Welker noted in a back-and-forth that studies have shown childhood vaccines prevent about 4 million deaths worldwide every year, have found no connection between vaccines and autism, and that rises in autism diagnoses are attributable to increased screening and awareness. 'If you go back 25 years ago,' Trump claimed, 'you had very little autism. Now you have it.'

"'Something is going on,' Trump added. 'I don’t know if it’s vaccines. Maybe it’s chlorine in the water, right? You know, people are looking at a lot of different things.' It was unclear whether Trump was referring to opposition by Kennedy and others to fluoride being added to drinking water."
I assume that this means someone who is ultimately under the direction of Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. If so, what evidence is there that Mr. Kennedy is open to rational persuasion? Mr. Kennedy has in the past, for example, pointed to poppers as being the true cause of AIDS, a notion that I consider dubious. I am bringing poppers up not as a tangent but to suggest that the answer to my question is that there is evidence that Mr. Kennedy does not approach these kinds of questions scientifically.
Click to expand...
Can I suggest the main problem is a big bunch of complete idiots voting for a small bunch of scheming fascists and froot-loops led by the world's biggest idiot occupying the White House. And Macdonalds Big Mac sauce.
 
Mike! said:
No thread of this nature should ever leave out the fact, yes, FACT, that the Bastard Wakefield started this shameful nonsense in the first place, by faking his research linking vaccinations with autism, and then standing behind that fallacy for years and gaining die-hard followers the whole time.
RFK Jr. just picked up the slime covered ball and ran with it.
Click to expand...
Oh Wakefield did a lot worse than that. You should look up the suffering he put kids through when trying to find evidence to support his fallacy, and all for a £50,000 retainer for a court case that was going nowhere.
 
MedPageToday reported, "'It is a fantasy to think we can lower vaccination rates and herd immunity in the U.S. and not suffer recurrence of these diseases,' said Gregory Poland, MD, co-director of the Atria Academy of Science & Medicine. 'One in 3,000 kids who gets measles is going to die. There's no treatment for it. They are going to die.'"
 
Chris_Halkides said:
MedPageToday reported, "'It is a fantasy to think we can lower vaccination rates and herd immunity in the U.S. and not suffer recurrence of these diseases,' said Gregory Poland, MD, co-director of the Atria Academy of Science & Medicine. 'One in 3,000 kids who gets measles is going to die. There's no treatment for it. They are going to die.'"
Click to expand...
Yes but he will die ideologically pure. Focus, man, focus!
 
I have to say, though I am a skeptic, vaccine denialism is one of the few things that actually gives me some pause.

I very reluctantly took the Covid shot. Two doses of it. So did practically everyone in my life.

Guess what. I later got Covid anyway (despite social distancing) and it was absolute hell. Fevers, chills, inability to walk for weeks. I was at death's door or so it felt like.

My parents caught it from me, despite being presumably jabbed themselves, and my father nearly died. He trembled like he had Parkinson's disease!

An acquaintance had the same thing happen to him. He got the shot and got the disease anyway and spread it to others.

That makes me wonder....what good are these things if you get Covid anyway!?
 
A vaccine is not a surface to air missile that can intercept a virus before it reaches you. WHO has a series of explainers on the subject of how vaccines work: " Once the body produces antibodies in its primary response to an antigen, it also creates antibody-producing memory cells, which remain alive even after the pathogen is defeated by the antibodies. If the body is exposed to the same pathogen more than once, the antibody response is much faster and more effective than the first time around because the memory cells are at the ready to pump out antibodies against that antigen." I wonder what RFK Jr. would make of this series.
 
Well, yes. Everyone knows that. That's common knowledge.

Here is where it gets....weird. The CIA was once engaged in producing fake shots, as part of some bizarre scheme to catch "the bad guys".

CIA fake vaccination campaign in Pakistan - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

To make this weird story even weirder, the Pakistani government arrested the doctor who was supposedly responsible for this and tortured him. They wanted to arrest him for treason, selling out to the CIA and all that....but then said he wasn't a CIA agent after all but a double agent for the terrorists.

Then, to make it weirder, it turned out he might have been the fall guy for the real spies.

He was sentenced to 33 years in prison and then moved from prison to "another place." No word on what happened to him after that.
 
From Wikipedia: On May 16, 2014, Lisa Monaco responded that vaccine programs would be excluded from espionage.
From Wikipedia: On 23 May 2012, he was sentenced to 33 years' imprisonment for treason, initially believed to be in connection with the bin Laden raid, but later revealed to be due to alleged ties with a local Islamist warlord Mangal Bagh. Lawyers appealed against the verdict on 1 June 2012. On 29 August 2013, his sentence was overturned and a retrial ordered.

This does not have anything to do with the vaccines against Covid-19, which saved millions of lives in one estimate.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom