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Religious Bigotry, Why it Will Backfire on You

corplinx

JREF Kid
corplinx
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
8,952
Some long time readers of these forums might be familiar with my history which I've alluded to in other threads.

I was raised in a religious fundamentalist household. We were devout baptists who switched to the Assemblies of God when the tempo of the music at the Baptist church got too fast for my mother's liking. Eventually, I grew out of creationism and fundamentalism through research and knowledge. My atheism is a constant source of worry to my mother, but then again, she also worries that I'm not eating enough bacon nor the right brand of it.

I see a lot of what I consider to be religiously bigoted material on this subforum lately regarding Sarah Palin. Here are some clues for the clueless:

1. In every AG church, about 90+ percent of the audience just shows up and goes through the motions. Its their community, family, and friends. Most of them don't take it too seriously.

2. In every AG church, there are some nutjobs, drama queens, closet government conspiracy kooks, and of course the one guy who sees every dropped pen as a sign of the end times. If you are recording footage of this church, the guy jumping up and down versus the hundreds sitting or standing quietly in the pews make for better video.

3. The one thing that rallies these people to the polls in droves is being mocked, demeaned, and condescended to. The worst thing you can do is put them on a crusade. When you attack her church, you become part of the secular humanist movement that is out to discredit God and churches. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way. You make fun of them and snipe about how they claim everything is "God's will", then when they decide that electing Sarah is God's will because of your opposition, you are vindicated. Sorta. In a retarded way.

The best thing you could have done was not attacked her religious beliefs. It is a strategic mistake. Mockery of evangelicals makes them show up at the polls.
 
Yes. The dems need to make this about the economy. Counter the cultural populism with economic populism.

Thomas Frank writes:

Like every other culture warrior before her, Mrs. Palin presents herself as a person looked down on and sneered at by the high and the mighty, defined as the liberal elite. Look down on or sneer at Mrs. Palin and you have merely reinforced the story, offered an illustration of what the lady is talking about.

When Republicans cry class conflict, it only seems fair that they get class conflict in return. And at this particular economic juncture it is the Democrats, not the GOP, who have all the weapons. Now if only they can be persuaded to use them.

Consider the current economic catastrophe, which has been building for a year. Just as it has taken down Countrywide, Bear Stearns, Indymac, Freddie, Fannie, Lehman, Merrill and Lord knows who else in the weeks to come, it has also pulverized the reigning conservative shibboleths of the past 28 years.

There is simply no way to blame this disaster, as Republicans used to do, on labor unions or over-regulation. No, this is the conservatives' beloved financial system doing what comes naturally. Freed from the intrusive meddling of government, just as generations of supply-siders and entrepreneurial exuberants demanded it be, the American financial establishment has proceeded to cheat and deceive and beggar itself -- and us -- to the edge of Armageddon. It is as though Wall Street was run by a troupe of historical re-enactors determined to stage all the classic panics of the 19th century.

By the way, this is the same system the Republicans would still apparently like to put in charge of Social Security. The same system that is minting millionaire CEOs, that is holding the line on wages, and that we will be bailing out for years.

On Monday, John McCain blamed the disaster on "greed by some based in Wall Street." It's a personal failing of some evil few, in other words, and presumably capitalism will start working again once we squeeze the self-interest out of it. In the weeks to come, maybe Sen. McCain will also take a bold stand against covetousness and sloth.

But the structural changes of the past 28 years that have made all this possible -- the waves of deregulation, the takeover of government itself by business interests -- these haven't made too much of an impression on him. In March Mr. McCain actually called for more deregulation in response to the crisis, and at the Republican convention two weeks ago an ebullient Mitt Romney promised that Mr. McCain would take "a weed-whacker to excessive regulation." Just for good measure, this former management consultant also called for yet another round of attacks on the unionized federal workforce, deploring its "tyrannosaurus appetite."
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Who gives a damn if she handles snakes and yammers in tongues? That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that she might become President when she isn't even able to run a small jerkwater town properly.
 
BenBurch said:
Who gives a damn if she handles snakes and yammers in tongues? That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that she might become President when she isn't even able to run a small jerkwater town properly.
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And the reason she might become President is because her opponents tend to call her supporters' home in rural Alaska, or more importantly rural Ohio, "jerkwater towns".

The day after The Speech, I had to do some travelling, and so I had an opportunity to listen to more radio than average. I cringed as I listened to Air America, as they insulted her and were still amazed at McCain's incredible blunder at picking this rube. (No one actually used the word "rube", but that was the tone.) Meanwhile, Rush Limbaugh was glowing. He was explaining that the left will absoulutely hate Sarah Palin because she stood up and exemplified middle America, and the left would savage her for having the audacity to actually be the sort of person they hate. Meanwhile, their vicious attacks would invoke a sympathy backlash, or as he said, people would see attacks on Sarah Palin as attacks on themselves, and not want to vote on the same side as the attackers.

I really hate it when I have to agree with Rush.

ETA: The assault on religion is all part of that. Most people aren't freaky fundies, but that includes most people who go to churches with freaky fundie members. When people launch assaults at those who attend those churches, they correctly perceive those attacks as attacks on themselves.
 
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Some people call it religious bigotry, some people call it a desire for reality. Eh.
 
Meadmaker said:
And the reason she might become President is because her opponents tend to call her supporters' home in rural Alaska, or more importantly rural Ohio, "jerkwater towns".

The day after The Speech, I had to do some travelling, and so I had an opportunity to listen to more radio than average. I cringed as I listened to Air America, as they insulted her and were still amazed at McCain's incredible blunder at picking this rube. (No one actually used the word "rube", but that was the tone.) Meanwhile, Rush Limbaugh was glowing. He was explaining that the left will absoulutely hate Sarah Palin because she stood up and exemplified middle America, and the left would savage her for having the audacity to actually be the sort of person they hate. Meanwhile, their vicious attacks would invoke a sympathy backlash, or as he said, people would see attacks on Sarah Palin as attacks on themselves, and not want to vote on the same side as the attackers.

I really hate it when I have to agree with Rush.

ETA: The assault on religion is all part of that. Most people aren't freaky fundies, but that includes most people who go to churches with freaky fundie members. When people launch assaults at those who attend those churches, they correctly perceive those attacks as attacks on themselves.
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I agree with you about calling towns like these "jerkwater" towns. I am also not too worried about anyones religious beliefs within reason. What I am sick to death of is the whole "small town values" garbage.
What exactly are these small town values that make them superior to city values? From what I have read Ms Palins small town has a meth problem and teens get pregnant there. Sounds a lot like small town values dont end with much different results than big city values.
Religious bias, homophobia and racism are at least as well represented in small towns as big cities. And yet over and over we hear "small town values" extolled as if growing up in one conferred sainthood.
 
1. In every AG church, about 90+ percent of the audience just shows up and goes through the motions. Its their community, family, and friends. Most of them don't take it too seriously.

...

3. The one thing that rallies these people to the polls in droves is being mocked, demeaned, and condescended to. The worst thing you can do is put them on a crusade.
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If most of them don't take it too seriously, then there shouldn't be a crusade. Lack of seriousness and the zeal of a crusade don't go together.

When you attack her church, you become part of the secular humanist movement that is out to discredit God and churches.
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I do want to discredit God and churches. Religion breeds authoritarianism and slows progress.
 
ETA: The assault on religion is all part of that. Most people aren't freaky fundies, but that includes most people who go to churches with freaky fundie members. When people launch assaults at those who attend those churches, they correctly perceive those attacks as attacks on themselves.
Click to expand...

What lot of people do not understand is that
A. A lot of people who do not have strong religous beliefs themselves do not like to hear religon attacked and
B. The inability of the Dems to reach small town and rural voters is one reason they have lost the last two Presdential elections. The Kos Kids and Moveon.org like to deny this because they have real comtempt for rural America, and like to think there is a way they do not have to soil there hands appealing for their votes. As long as groups like this have heavy influences on the way the Dems run their campaigns the Dems will continue to lose the Presidency.
3.Losing an election is a high price to pay for the fun of ridiculing "Stupid Hicks".
 
boloboffin said:
Some people call it religious bigotry, some people call it a desire for reality. Eh.
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Your "Desire for Reality" might cost you guys the election.
It seems to me that keeping your mouth shut for a few months about what you really think about Religon is a reasonable price to pay for winning the White House.
And dont' forget, for all the circle jerking going on on Athiest/Secularists web pages, you are still a small minority in the American Population. If you think appealing to them will win you the election, you are dead wrong.
 
corplinx said:
The best thing you could have done was not attacked her religious beliefs. It is a strategic mistake. Mockery of evangelicals makes them show up at the polls.
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I think you are right here. People tend to become very much "us vs. them" when they think their religion is being threatened.

When talking to my mom (whose greek orthodox, but doesn't attend church often) about creationism vs. evolution, she gets a knee jerk sympathy for the creationists. I must explain that evolution ISN'T the opposite of god's creation. It's just an observation of the universe, she becomes more understanding.
 
Ausmerican said:
What exactly are these small town values that make them superior to city values? From what I have read Ms Palins small town has a meth problem and teens get pregnant there. Sounds a lot like small town values dont end with much different results than big city values.
Religious bias, homophobia and racism are at least as well represented in small towns as big cities.
Click to expand...

To comment on the last sentence, my experience growing up in one is that they are more represented there, and we didn't have a meth problem when I was growing up, just pot, coke, and heroin.

As to the question, I would find it difficult to answer, but it is there. I'll give it some thought and see if I can put it into words.
 
Ausmerican said:
What exactly are these small town values that make them superior to city values? From what I have read Ms Palins small town has a meth problem and teens get pregnant there. Sounds a lot like small town values dont end with much different results than big city values.
Religious bias, homophobia and racism are at least as well represented in small towns as big cities. And yet over and over we hear "small town values" extolled as if growing up in one conferred sainthood.
Click to expand...

I have spent much of my life in largish cities (Tucson was the smallest) and my wife is from a town of 1,200. One example that I know of is that when you see a meth-head on the street you see a weak minded criminal, when that meth-head is the son, daughter, brother or sister of someone you know (as is likely the case in many small towns) you see a personal/family tragedy. That is at least one difference between small town and city values. In my experience there is little actual difference between the two. You have great people and jerks in both settings.

Daredelvis
 
The "Small Town Virtues" is sort of a reaction to the "Stupid Hicktown" attitude of a lot of city dwellers.
The fact is both like to think that a lot flaws that exist in both only exist in other guy's place of residence.
I have lived in both Big Cities (LA,San Francisco,Denver) and small towns and both have their advantages and disadvantages. If you want to go to new play or see a big show, you have problems or a long drive if you are in a small town. If you like to get out into the country and are fond of wilderness, you have the same problems with the Big city.
 
Ausmerican said:
I agree with you about calling towns like these "jerkwater" towns. I am also not too worried about anyones religious beliefs within reason. What I am sick to death of is the whole "small town values" garbage.
What exactly are these small town values that make them superior to city values? From what I have read Ms Palins small town has a meth problem and teens get pregnant there. Sounds a lot like small town values dont end with much different results than big city values.
Religious bias, homophobia and racism are at least as well represented in small towns as big cities. And yet over and over we hear "small town values" extolled as if growing up in one conferred sainthood.
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It comes down to priorities rather than values, that's probably a better way of looking at it. Keeping the local factory that sustains the town from going overseas and the price of gas low because there's no public transportation is a lot more important than a drug problem that's behind closed doors and not in the streets and poverty in a place where cost of living is low.

The values are the same, just in a different order.

Figure if things weren't that way, though, Democrats wouldn't do as well in big cities either.
 
daredelvis said:
I have spent much of my life in largish cities (Tucson was the smallest) and my wife is from a town of 1,200. One example that I know of is that when you see a meth-head on the street you see a weak minded criminal, when that meth-head is the son, daughter, brother or sister of someone you know (as is likely the case in many small towns) you see a personal/family tragedy. That is at least one difference between small town and city values. In my experience there is little actual difference between the two. You have great people and jerks in both settings.

Daredelvis
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Also, the magnitude of a city magnifies the jerky quality.

Let's say 0.1% of the popluation are pedophiles (I do not know the actual numbers).

In a town of 1000 people, that's only 1 pedophile.

However, in New York City, you have ~80,000 pedophiles forming NAMBLA.
 
BenBurch said:
Who gives a damn if she handles snakes and yammers in tongues? That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that she might become President when she isn't even able to run a small jerkwater town properly.
Click to expand...

What meadmaker said. Also, what Thomas Frank said. I'll post it again:

Like every other culture warrior before her, Mrs. Palin presents herself as a person looked down on and sneered at by the high and the mighty, defined as the liberal elite. Look down on or sneer at Mrs. Palin and you have merely reinforced the story, offered an illustration of what the lady is talking about.
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I assure you, you will not win over any swing voters with that attitude. People in "small jerkwater towns" vote, too.
 
The problem is that Palin is a religious enthusiast, and it is the enthusiasts who control which way the mob moves.

So the rest of the congregation is luke-warm. They don't make the decisions. It is the enthusiasts who do.

So Palin's religion is a bigger factor than is Obama's in evaluating their mental state and the impact it will have on their ability to lead in a rational manner.
 
How do you know she is more enthusiastic about religion than Obama?
 
gtc said:
How do you know she is more enthusiastic about religion than Obama?
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What programs has Obama pushed to re-inforce religious teachings in the schools?

AO sex education and creationism are intended to use the public facilities to teach a religious view.
 
gtc said:
How do you know she is more enthusiastic about religion than Obama?
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This is a fair point. Palin came on the scene and didn't immediately start stating the virtues of religious beliefs or anything. The attacks on her for religious reasons came at her full force before she could even consider doing so.

And yet Obama is also supposed to be religious. He was aklso a member of a church for many years.

I can't help but notice the bias in that with Obama, he gets a full pass on any of that. It doesn't even seem to cross anyones mind. Maybe the assumption is that he just pays lip service to religion but is really a secular atheist underneath it all.

But Palin, the moment she hits the scene, it's religious attack after religous attack. Both of them have a religious background, why the knee jerk attacks on her, but a total pass on Obama?

I know I said I was going to avoid this forum, I was just reading a few messages while waiting to see if anyone responds to my long post in Shemps thread, and wanted to weigh in on these things, but my most recent posts I have bent over backwards to be calm, polite, and reasonable. But I will probably be walking away from this forum for the most part after tonite.
 
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The issue is not how religious either of them is, it is how they allow religion to affect their public policies.
 
Alferd_Packer said:
The issue is not how religious either of them is, it is how they allow religion to affect their public policies.
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Ok that is fair, so I assume that the attacks on Palin mean there is good reason to think she will allow religion to affect her public policies, but Obama will not?
 
Whiplash said:
Ok that is fair, so I assume that the attacks on Palin mean there is good reason to think she will allow religion to affect her public policies, but Obama will not?
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In my very humble and very British opinion, the very fact that Obama is (as far as I'm aware) not a creationist and Palin is is cause for concern.

She might well not let it affect her, but IF she does, it will mean something bloody awful.

The fact she's hugely pro-life MAY not be an issue, but IF IT IS....

The fact she's AO sex ed minded....

etc.


It's not so much that I personally fear she absolutely WILL bring these in (although I'm bloody sure she will for AO and her pro-life stances) it's what will happen IF she does.
 
Puppycow said:
What meadmaker said. Also, what Thomas Frank said. I'll post it again:

[quote about sneering at rural America]

I assure you, you will not win over any swing voters with that attitude. People in "small jerkwater towns" vote, too.
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I admit to having this prejudice. After thinking about it, I found that I've associated rural America with ethnocentrism. I wonder if on average, people in small towns really do ostracize non-whites, (legal) immigrants, gays, non-Christians, and eccentric people more than big city folks do.

More to the point, Palin is a religious fundamentalist, which actually has a proven association with ethnocentrism, so even if my prejudice about rural America is incorrect, I think it's more likely to be correct for Palin in particular.
 
Hey, I came from a jerkwater town. And you know what? Everybody there called it a jerkwater town. You should have seen Bartlett IL back in the 60s. One catholic church, two bars, one general store/pharmacy, one hardware store, two gas stations, and a railroad station. Literally was a jerkwater town as it existed primarily because there the Milwaukee Road trains took on water. (That is the origin of the word.) It was not a whole lot smaller than Wasalia was when Caribou Barbie ran the place. And if you could screw up running a small town like that, you have no business being President.

And Hell, all of Alaska has a population 1/5 that of Chicago. Do you think Mayor Richard M. Daley is qualified to be President, then? Eh, Wildcat? By that measure he is five times as qualified as she is.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
The fact she's AO sex ed minded....
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The "fact" that she is AO sex ed minded is not a fact at all. She isn't.

She once answered a questionnaire in such a way that suggested she might be, but it was basically a push-poll style questionnaire. The alternative was (from memory) "explicit sex education and contraceptive clinics in schools". She supports teaching contraceptive use to teens.

My source for this is a document compiled by Tony Knowles, her Democratic opponent for governor. If you want a link, you'll have to google it yourself.
 
I have been trying to decide what "small town values" really are, and the only phrase I came up with is "pride of place". That can be good, or bad. It breeds patriotism, and bigotry. It breeds a sense of community, and a need to look after neighbors, but it also breeds nosiness, holier than thou attitudes, and self righteousness.

Someone noted that numbers make a difference and that in a small town, one in 1,000 pedophiles means only one pedophile. Not quite true. It means 0 pedophiles. He'll have to leave town once he's caught, even if he gets out of jail.
 
RPG Advocate said:
I admit to having this prejudice. After thinking about it, I found that I've associated rural America with ethnocentrism. I wonder if on average, people in small towns really do ostracize non-whites, (legal) immigrants, gays, non-Christians, and eccentric people more than big city folks do.
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I grew up in a town in a town of about 10,000 residents, I currently live in a town of about 50,000 residents. The answer to your wondering is, no, at least not in any small town I havve lived in. People in small towns are just like everywehre else, some are idiotic ****wits, some are not.
 
RPG Advocate said:
I admit to having this prejudice. After thinking about it, I found that I've associated rural America with ethnocentrism. I wonder if on average, people in small towns really do ostracize non-whites, (legal) immigrants, gays, non-Christians, and eccentric people more than big city folks do.
Click to expand...

Most southern small towns have healthy minority populations unless the small towns were created by white flight.
 
Whiplash said:
And yet Obama is also supposed to be religious. He was aklso a member of a church for many years.

I can't help but notice the bias in that with Obama, he gets a full pass on any of that.
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You can say what you like about the Politics forum, it's always entertaining.
 
That Palin gets a pass from Eagle Forum is cause enough for concern. Bunch of crazy people with a Dominionist leaning. Her church is also Dominionist in its teachings. She was a convert from another religion, as I recall reading somewhere. That can be scary. Converts get carried away more often than is safe for rational society.

At least with Obama, we need not worry that he will nuke Iran just because he thinks God wanted him to.
 
leftysergeant.

Do you have a link to suggest that her church is Dominionist? Also can you provide evidence that converts are more likely to get carried away than others? Lastly, is she a convert? Do you mean that she wasn't raised Christian or that she started to attend church only later in life?

Dr Adequate said:
You can say what you like about the Politics forum, it's always entertaining.
Click to expand...

What is your point?
 
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