Rapist gets a lesser sentence than woman stuck it to him online
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Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Heard about that a bit ago, and there are no words for how incredibly incensed I am.
How is their heritage relevant? The article says 5 of them were German citizens.
She was sentenced to a weekend in a youth detention centre; do you think she was innocent? She's understandably angry, but does that give her a free pass to do whatever she likes?
The men may not have spent time in prison (I don't know if they were remanded in custody before trial or sentencing, in which case they may have done), but they were not let off, they had suspended sentences and community service. You may think that's not long enough, but that's something you'd have to take up with the German justice system.
I'm not one for saying emotion has no place in our decisions but I think this sordid mess shows why we do need to try and keep it out of the process of our justice systems.
I'm loathe to say whether her potential incarceration even for such a short period of time is right or wrong as the article doesn't give enough details of her alleged offence to even know exactly what she did, nor details of the legislation that is the basis for her offence so we don't know what latitude either the police, prosecutors nor the courts have for these offences.
The article is obviously slanted to read badly to elicit I'd say the very reactions shown in some of the posts in this thread, the media knows how to push our buttons all too well.
I'm loathe to say whether her potential incarceration even for such a short period of time is right or wrong as the article doesn't give enough details of her alleged offence to even know exactly what she did, nor details of the legislation that is the basis for her offence so we don't know what latitude either the police, prosecutors nor the courts have for these offences.
The article is obviously slanted to read badly to elicit I'd say the very reactions shown in some of the posts in this thread, the media knows how to push our buttons all too well.
Gulliver Foyle
Philosopher
The paper is one of Murdoch's.
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
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DNA evidence
"While there were no direct witnesses, DNA evidence connected nine of the defendants to the crime." I can only surmise that there were many samples that contained contributions from a few (maybe just one or two) individuals. A sample with 9 contributors would be a hopeless mess to deconvolute.
"While there were no direct witnesses, DNA evidence connected nine of the defendants to the crime." I can only surmise that there were many samples that contained contributions from a few (maybe just one or two) individuals. A sample with 9 contributors would be a hopeless mess to deconvolute.
Thermal
August Member
She said they wouldn't be able to go anywhere without getting beat up. I don't think that's her threatening to do the beating. And seriously: saying you think someone is going to get beat up is worse than gang raping a drunk girl?
I agree that these guys shouldn't be in jail. They should be rotting in unmarked graves.
Dr.Sid
Philosopher
For some reason some countries are incredible light on rape. IMHO it's form of torture, it should be sentenced heavier than murder.
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
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To inflame racial hatred of course.
Thermal
August Member
The psychiatrist quoted in the article explains why...they gang raped a girl...based on some drivel about how they felt powerless and lonely in a foreign culture. You know, because that has something to do with committing particularly violent crimes against a girl.
Certainly seems the gang rapers got a free pass to do what they liked. Oh, no... they got a little community service.
I wonder if the judge got gang raped by 9 guys, if he would be so cavalier about their treatment? Or would that be different?
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
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maybe juveniles, but definitely delinquents
"Because the perpetrators were aged between 17 and 21 at the time, the case was conducted by a youth chamber and the public was excluded from the proceedings." My quick-take impression is that most were not legally adults, which would affect the punishment. A 23-year old individual was mentioned as being acquitted. IMO their punishment was still too light, even factoring in age.
EDT
I broadly agree with Thermal that as a threat, what the young woman said was thin gruel.
"Because the perpetrators were aged between 17 and 21 at the time, the case was conducted by a youth chamber and the public was excluded from the proceedings." My quick-take impression is that most were not legally adults, which would affect the punishment. A 23-year old individual was mentioned as being acquitted. IMO their punishment was still too light, even factoring in age.
EDT
I broadly agree with Thermal that as a threat, what the young woman said was thin gruel.
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Beerina
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
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Utterly irrelevant to legality of speech. I'd just as soon break the arms of the police and politicians involved. Repeat until freedom of speech.
She is not immune from criticism, but politicians need broken arms. That's gentle compared to the justification to freedom. ******** who vote away your rights, or even think that's proper to vote on, need broken arms.
"But...!"
Broken.
Arms.
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Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
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Which woman made threats?
Apparently there was a similar incident in Hamburg in 2016. "On Thursday, a judge handed down suspended sentences to the underage perpetrators. Only one defendant, who is 21, will see jail time of four years."
A discussion at the skeptics stack exchange made it sound as if the woman who was sentenced in the incident discussed by the OP for threats was not the woman who was raped: "This is an excerpt from the "Morgenpost". The article describes that personal details of the juvenile rapist (16, so not a "man" as far as German law is concerned but an adolescent) where published including his phone number, and that the woman who was later sentenced, and who had no personal connection to either the rape victim nor the rapist, wrote him personal messages to the effect that he "would not be able to go anywhere without being kicked in the face"." I had assumed otherwise. The linked discussion also indicated that the woman making the threats did not appear in court, but the reason is not clear to me.
EDT
The New York Post reported, "Maja R.’s sentence was harsher than the rapist she defamed because she had a previous conviction for theft and had not attended the court hearing for the case." They indicated that defamation in Germany has harsh penalties. I am not thrilled with the outcomes.
Apparently there was a similar incident in Hamburg in 2016. "On Thursday, a judge handed down suspended sentences to the underage perpetrators. Only one defendant, who is 21, will see jail time of four years."
A discussion at the skeptics stack exchange made it sound as if the woman who was sentenced in the incident discussed by the OP for threats was not the woman who was raped: "This is an excerpt from the "Morgenpost". The article describes that personal details of the juvenile rapist (16, so not a "man" as far as German law is concerned but an adolescent) where published including his phone number, and that the woman who was later sentenced, and who had no personal connection to either the rape victim nor the rapist, wrote him personal messages to the effect that he "would not be able to go anywhere without being kicked in the face"." I had assumed otherwise. The linked discussion also indicated that the woman making the threats did not appear in court, but the reason is not clear to me.
EDT
The New York Post reported, "Maja R.’s sentence was harsher than the rapist she defamed because she had a previous conviction for theft and had not attended the court hearing for the case." They indicated that defamation in Germany has harsh penalties. I am not thrilled with the outcomes.
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gabeygoat
Master Poster
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Dude. Rapists got a slap on the wrist for GANG RAPING A MINOR... and this female goes to prison for SAYING MEAN THINGS ONLINE.
No, I don't think suspended sentences and community service are sufficient for having gang raped a ******* minor. Not even a little bit.
But the fact that this other person has more time in jail because they were mean online is so far from any whiff of justice that I don't even know where to start.
Poem talks about rape culture? Yeah - THIS is rape culture. THIS is a culture in which several adult males who rape a minor repeatedly get a finger wag, because raping a child is just no big deal, wouldn't want to cause those males problems... and also, the culture needs to protect the rapists from getting their ******* feelings hurt.
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Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Always fun to find out that an "civilized" country has harsher penalties for saying mean things than they do for rape.
What do you think there is to explain? If you'd care to specify which accusations of racism you're hoping to level against me at some point down the line I'd be happy to give you my response.
plague311
Great minds think...
Dude. Rapists got a slap on the wrist for GANG RAPING A MINOR... and this female goes to prison for SAYING MEAN THINGS ONLINE.
No, I don't think suspended sentences and community service are sufficient for having gang raped a ******* minor. Not even a little bit.
But the fact that this other person has more time in jail because they were mean online is so far from any whiff of justice that I don't even know where to start.
Poem talks about rape culture? Yeah - THIS is rape culture. THIS is a culture in which several adult males who rape a minor repeatedly get a finger wag, because raping a child is just no big deal, wouldn't want to cause those males problems... and also, the culture needs to protect the rapists from getting their ******* feelings hurt.
Did you read the rest of the thread past the OP? Sounds like the woman who got sentenced wasn't the victim, and wasn't even victim adjacent. I'll agree that the sentence was too light, they should all be in prison for at least a few years.
Kind of odd though because some people in this thread who are normally all "I'll wait for more information to come out before I jump to conclusions" in cases where cops shoot people were quick to the trigger on this one.
It also sounds like the girl that got punished has a bit of an issue showing up to court and has light fingers.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
So what? It's irrelevant in the comparison of sentencing for gang rape versus being a meany online.
Life. They should be in prison for LIFE.
What "more information" do you think we should be waiting for? The trials and sentencing have already occurred. It's already retrospective.
Do you think there is some currently non-disclosed information that *should* alter my opinion that gang rape is a materially and considerably worse crime than being mean online, and therefore should merit a longer sentence?
And this is relevant how?
plague311
Great minds think...
No, it's not irrelevant. You made your statement using the basis that the victim was sentenced. That's not true, but I guess you saying you don't care about facts is relatively on brand.
No, it shouldn't be, but this argument actually is irrelevant.
Well for instance like the person that had to go to the weekend camp wasn't the victim of the game rape, for one. Facts don't seem to be an issue for you though. The information here isn't always current and new things pop up all the time, but I do the same thing, so I'll drop it for now.
No, gang rape is obviously worse than being mean online, but the total hours of community service for each person is more than a weekend at camp. I already said though that I felt they should have stiffer penalties, so going back and forth on this is useless.
Well, she wasn't just ******* sentenced for being a meanie online, was she Emily's Cat? Part of the sentence was for skipping court dates and not showing up for crimes sentencing for previous crimes she committed. A fraction of the judgement she received was from her posting online and threatening people. Glad I could help.
Let me ask you, if it was a man messaging a woman saying she wouldn't be able to go anywhere without getting beaten up, would you be ok with a shorter\lesser sentence than a weekend at "meanie camp"? Of course you wouldn't be, you'd be complaining until your fingers bled.
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Thermal
August Member
And the little-seen "Let's not be too rough on men who gang rape children" representative has entered the chat.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Apparently only the victim is allowed to be angry at a group of adult males getting a slap on the wrist for gang raping a child? Good to know.
It's nice to know that you think the punishment for gang raping a minor should be stiffer than a slap on the wrist... But you know, let's make sure that people who hurt the feelings of the gang rapists get punished too, that's just fair, after all.
If that female had been part of a group of adults who GANG RAPED A MINOR, I would be perfectly fine with that male getting nothing more than a finger-wag for it.
I know I'm the crazy one, thinking that gang raping minors is an offense that should involve losing the key, and believing that the sex of the perpetrator is irrelevant. Truly crazy. Just straight up looney. Every right-minded person knows that gang raping minors doesn't justify getting one's feelings hurt.
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
One of the things I do not like about some "Progressives" is they seem to side more with the criminal rather the victim.
That is sheer BS.
As for keeping emotions out of the Justice system, good luck with that. You will have to find someone other then Humans to adminsiter it.
I admit, I probalby side more with mainstream conservatives then the progressives when it comes to crime.
Who are you referring to? If you mean Plague, I can't see where they are saying not to be too rough on rapists. More that the woman who got sentenced wasn't just sentenced for saying bad words.
Thermal
August Member
Let the record reflect:
A few years. For one of the most heinous crimes on the table. It's not only humiliating, degrading, and dehumanizing, but as opined by others here, I wouldnt hesitate to call it torture. Gang rapists are a very live threat to society, and that particular level.of sociopathy puts them in the locked away for life department. Or they could choose death at their discretion, which is one of the very few times I would accept that. Hell, I might volunteer to carry it out.
Murder, especially second degree, can be shown some latitude, depending on the circumstances. Gang rape cannot. They forfeit their rights to be treated like humans. Because they are not.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
I'm all for harsh sentences for rapists, but if we're going to condemn someone to life in prison (or death) for the crime, I'd want to see incontrovertible evidence that they did, in fact, commit a rape. "DNA places you at the scene of the alleged rape" isn't enough for me.
Thermal
August Member
Oh, agreed. The high penalty requires a high degree of confidence in their guilt.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Do you require the same degree of confidence for life terms for murder?
Also... I'm assume that seminal DNA at the vaginal scene of the alleged rape suffices?
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Yes, of course. I assume we both understand that these are complicated questions with a fair bit of nuance to each individual case, and that I'm stating general principles, not perfect systems of formal criminal justice logic.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Fair enough.