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Racism is contextual

Octavo

Illuminator
Octavo
Joined
Jun 19, 2007
Messages
3,485
Location
South Africa
I think the thread title is self-evident and propose a real world example:

I recently had occasion to overhear an event producer on a phone call to book talent: "No, the dancers can't be white. I need them to be black."

This sounds racist. Without further context, I'd agree. Why are you refusing to hire white people?

Some context: This event is taking place in South Africa. Is it still racist? Maybe.

More context: its a corporate event for a european multi-national and the event is for the entire African region. Is it starting to look more like sound pr rather than straight up racism yet? I hope so.

More context: The whole show is 2 dancers and an industrial robot. A troupe of 50 would be a different story.

Your thoughts? Got any good examples to share?
 
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"X is contextual" is next only to "Every situation is different" and "It's not that simple" in the trifecta of statements that are nearly 100% always technically true while nearly being always pointless.
 
JoeMorgue said:
"X is contextual" is next only to "Every situation is different" and "It's not that simple" in the trifecta of statements that are nearly 100% always technically true while nearly being always pointless.
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Your post is both true and pointless - I'm not sure if you realised the irony when you typed it, but thanks for the chuckle :)
 
I'm not sure your scenario demonstrates that racism is contextual, but rather just that some things that seem racist at first glance aren't.
 
kellyb said:
I'm not sure your scenario demonstrates that racism is contextual, but rather just that some things that seem racist at first glance aren't.
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So without the context, you would have come to believe hiring only black dancers isn't racist?

Isn't the "second glance" just context?
 
Actually, this specific situation starts to sound more racist the more context is added... There could be lots of reasons to hire black dancers, but apparently here the reason was that the organizers thought that Africans attending a corporate event would only want to look at black dancers...
 
Octavo said:
So without the context, you would have come to believe hiring only black dancers isn't racist?

Isn't the "second glance" just context?
Click to expand...

Presumes something not in evidence. Presumes people see the comment without context as racist.
 
Porpoise of Life said:
Actually, this specific situation starts to sound more racist the more context is added... There could be lots of reasons to hire black dancers, but apparently here the reason was that the organizers thought that Africans attending a corporate event would only want to look at black dancers...
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...but that's not racist. At worst, it's expecting racism or at best racial bias. That's why they keep casting chinese actors in recent big-budget Hollywood movies. Plus, the hard left tells us that people want to see their own "kind" in screen.
 
Belz... said:
...but that's not racist. At worst, it's expecting racism or at best racial bias. That's why they keep casting chinese actors in recent big-budget Hollywood movies.Plus, the hard left tells us that people want to see their own "kind" in screen.
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As does the "right" - they just disagree on who is their own "kind".
 
Darat said:
As does the "right" - they just disagree on who is their own "kind".
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Do they? Does the right tell us that black people, for instance, need to identify with the skin colour of characters in movies? I've never heard that argument from them. I've heard from them that casting minorities was always a far-left political decision, though.
 
Belz... said:
Do they? Does the right tell us that black people, for instance, need to identify with the skin colour of characters in movies? I've never heard that argument from them. I've heard from them that casting minorities was always a far-left political decision, though.
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Maybe not, but they are more likely, as whites, to say they want to see people like themselves on screen.
 
Belz... said:
I'd believe it if you could support that claim.
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Ok fine so the right wing doesn't care about representation in media and the left does, so we should make most movies with predominantly black and minority casts. The right will not care and it will satisfy the left so everyone wins.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Ok fine so the right wing doesn't care about representation in media and the left does, so we should make most movies with predominantly black and minority casts. The right will not care and it will satisfy the left so everyone wins.
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I'll take that as an admission that your claim was unfounded. Thank you.
 
So, how about you follow your own guidelines and provide some evidence for your claims that casting minorities is a left wing thing because 'the hard left' says people can only identify with their own race/kind?
 
Well, casting minorities sure isn't right-wing thing, right?

But we've had plenty of threads on this forum, recently, where this claim was made. Remember that thread about Black Panther merchandise and missed opportunities?

Anyway, my point is this: if we're told that people prefer to see their like in movies and such, is that racism, or just personal bias towards people like us? I don't think racism is just this form of trivial bias. It's something more narrow than that.
 
zooterkin said:
I've certainly encountered people who have expressed those views.
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As with all political discussions, when one person on the right (or left) expresses an objectionable opinion, it then becomes something everyone on their side of the political spectrum needs to defend or else admit their entire worldview is basically evil.
 
Mycroft said:
As with all political discussions, when one person on the right (or left) expresses an objectionable opinion, it then becomes something everyone on their side of the political spectrum needs to defend or else admit their entire worldview is basically evil.
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Pretty much every time. To be fair, we are often too willing to defend the worst ideas of our side for fear of giving even an inch to the other side.

Belz... said:
Well, casting minorities sure isn't right-wing thing, right?

But we've had plenty of threads on this forum, recently, where this claim was made. Remember that thread about Black Panther merchandise and missed opportunities?

Anyway, my point is this: if we're told that people prefer to see their like in movies and such, is that racism, or just personal bias towards people like us? I don't think racism is just this form of trivial bias. It's something more narrow than that.
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I think the problem comes in because in a society with a clear majority that sort of trivial bias really adds up.
 
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ponderingturtle said:
Exactly the right certainly whines like you wouldn't believe if there is not enough white people on screen.
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When I try to think of examples, the only one I can think of are the handful of tards who complained about the Star Wars character Finn being black, upsetting their ideal of all Star Wars clones being white.

Can you cite some other examples?
 
People will often ask me if I am getting rid of the blacks and I will often say, "Yes, I am getting rid of all the blacks."

Sound like I'm leading the local KKK chapter on a mission of ethnic cleansing? Not at all:

I am getting rid of the black poker chips in a tournament as they are no longer being used.
 
Mycroft said:
When I try to think of examples, the only one I can think of are the handful of tards who complained about the Star Wars character Finn being black, upsetting their ideal of all Star Wars clones being white.

Can you cite some other examples?
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It mostly takes the form of saying that representation doesn't matter while being massively over represented in the media. Representation not mattering is of course saying of course you should only cast white people as white is the default for all people everywhere. It is only when there is a reason to make someone Ethnic that they shouldn't be white.
 
Belz... said:
Well, casting minorities sure isn't right-wing thing, right?

But we've had plenty of threads on this forum, recently, where this claim was made. Remember that thread about Black Panther merchandise and missed opportunities?

Anyway, my point is this: if we're told that people prefer to see their like in movies and such, is that racism, or just personal bias towards people like us? I don't think racism is just this form of trivial bias. It's something more narrow than that.
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Not even close to racism. I find it strange that this isn't obvious to most people. [ETA: I actually think it is obvious to most]

Or are we talking about the SJW definition of racist, or the BLM version, or the Facebook Groupthink version, or the Nazi version, the ISF version, or the actual real honest to goodness definition?

When I ran a club we'd hire dancers. Some guys would say "you need more black girls!" or Asian, or big butts, or whatever. I actually felt slightly uncomfortable with it at first, but that's business and the girls all knew it too.

Real people know racism when they see it. The d-bags who make the news - maybe not. Let's not destroy good ol' fashioned racism by misusing the term!
 
mgidm86 said:
Not even close to racism. I find it strange that this isn't obvious to most people. [ETA: I actually think it is obvious to most]

Or are we talking about the SJW definition of racist, or the BLM version, or the Facebook Groupthink version, or the Nazi version, the ISF version, or the actual real honest to goodness definition?

When I ran a club we'd hire dancers. Some guys would say "you need more black girls!" or Asian, or big butts, or whatever. I actually felt slightly uncomfortable with it at first, but that's business and the girls all knew it too.

Real people know racism when they see it. The d-bags who make the news - maybe not. Let's not destroy good ol' fashioned racism by misusing the term!
Click to expand...

So there is nothing racist about a white savior movie because it is really the audience that is racist?
 
Mycroft said:
When I try to think of examples, the only one I can think of are the handful of tards who complained about the Star Wars character Finn being black, upsetting their ideal of all Star Wars clones being white.

Can you cite some other examples?
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There was a hew and cry over Heimdall being a black guy.
 
Octavo said:
I think the thread title is self-evident and propose a real world example:

I recently had occasion to overhear an event producer on a phone call to book talent: "No, the dancers can't be white. I need them to be black."

This sounds racist. Without further context, I'd agree. Why are you refusing to hire white people?

Some context: This event is taking place in South Africa. Is it still racist? Maybe.

More context: its a corporate event for a european multi-national and the event is for the entire African region. Is it starting to look more like sound pr rather than straight up racism yet? I hope so.

More context: The whole show is 2 dancers and an industrial robot. A troupe of 50 would be a different story.

Your thoughts? Got any good examples to share?
Click to expand...

Racism is not contextual. Racism is prejudice/discrimination against a group of people, based on their race. The example you gave is simply not a case of racism.

A movie director who's casting actors for a role in which character is supposed to be black, is obviously only going to interview black actors. That's not racism, because in that situation, the race of the person is an essential detail that's required for the role. It's not the only one, though, which is why not any black actor will be competent for the role. They probably need to have other traits, such as being a good actor, having a good resume, etc. Same thing if you're looking for actors with a lot of muscles because you're looking for the lead for a movie about Hercules. A person complaining that they were discriminated against in any xenophobic sense because they have no muscles, would be flat out wrong.

However, if you were hiring lawyers for a firm and you didn't want any black lawyers, because you believe that black people by definition are not smart enough, that's racist. In other words: when there's no connection at all between your race and the thing you're supposed to be doing.
 
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Bob, a mate of mine, once shouted, "I *********** hate blacks!" in a crowded pub.

Was this racist? Possibly, although it turned out he'd just missed the final ball in pool yet again.

True story. After that he was known as 'Racist Bob'.
 
ahhell said:
There was a hew and cry over Heimdall being a black guy.
Click to expand...

True that. Turned out to be one of the coolest characters in the franchise.

I wonder if the opposition to the casting was racism or just resistance to changing what they were familiar with from the comics.
 
Ron_Tomkins said:
However, if you were hiring lawyers for a firm and you didn't want any black lawyers, because you believe that black people by definition are not smart enough, that's racist. In other words: when there's no connection at all between your race and the thing you're supposed to be doing.
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What if a law firm is hiring black lawyers in order to appeal to black customers?

Belz... said:
True that. Turned out to be one of the coolest characters in the franchise.
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That's mostly because Idris Elba is one of the coolest actors in existence.
I wonder if the opposition to the casting was racism or just resistance to changing what they were familiar with from the comics.
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My recollection is that it was mostly coming from alt right groups rather than comic fan boys, so if I remember correctly, racism.
 
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ponderingturtle said:
So there is nothing racist about a white savior movie because it is really the audience that is racist?
Click to expand...

In and of itself there is nothing racist about a "white savior" movie. The racism is that the "white savior" narrative is told and repeated to the exclusion of other narratives.
 
Octavo said:
I think the thread title is self-evident and propose a real world example:

I recently had occasion to overhear an event producer on a phone call to book talent: "No, the dancers can't be white. I need them to be black."

This sounds racist. Without further context, I'd agree. Why are you refusing to hire white people?

Some context: This event is taking place in South Africa. Is it still racist? Maybe.

More context: its a corporate event for a european multi-national and the event is for the entire African region. Is it starting to look more like sound pr rather than straight up racism yet? I hope so.

More context: The whole show is 2 dancers and an industrial robot. A troupe of 50 would be a different story.

Your thoughts? Got any good examples to share?
Click to expand...

Maybe I have a warped mind, but your context doesn't particularly make it less racist.

1 seems to be some niave thinking that a lot of South Africans aren't white

2 seems to be some weird conclusion that corporates some how need to see only black people

3 is irrelevant
 
cullennz said:
Maybe I have a warped mind, but your context doesn't particularly make it less racist.

1 seems to be some niave thinking that a lot of South Africans aren't white

2 seems to be some weird conclusion that corporates some how need to see only black people

3 is irrelevant
Click to expand...


Whitey may only know how to dance like whitey.
 
ahhell said:
What if a law firm is hiring black lawyers in order to appeal to black customers?
Click to expand...

Then I don't think it's racist. Again, just like the movie casting example, if a law firm, or any company is specifically looking for black people for a specific reason in which they need the person to be black (no matter how stupid or silly the reason it may seem to you) then in that case there's a specific reason why they're not gonna be hiring whites, asians, etc... only black people.

That's not the same as flat-out never hiring someone of a specific race because you believe their race makes them inferior or less capable of doing the job, or because you're convinced that people of that race, by definition, steal or are unreliable, etc.
 
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Minority rights jobs will always be given to a member of the minority in question

LGBT rights jobs will always be given to people who are LGBT

Womens rights jobs will always be given to a woman

Is this prejudiced?

Technically yes.........logically who cares, as it is just common sense
 
Stankeye said:
Poppy cock. No one complains when Idris Elba is in a movie. :D
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Just proves it was racist, what other reason could you have to complain about casting him in any role?

Funny, I don't remember any similar complaint when he was cast as the Gunslinger, which would require some rewriting if they ever make any sequels. Detta being a black women with a lot of hatred towards white people, that dynamic totally changes when you have a black Roland.
 
Belz... said:
...but that's not racist. At worst, it's expecting racism or at best racial bias. That's why they keep casting chinese actors in recent big-budget Hollywood movies. Plus, the hard left tells us that people want to see their own "kind" in screen.
Click to expand...

I take your point, but this sort of reasoning leads to some conclusions that many people balk at.

Let's say that a real estate developer (let's call him DT, for reasons that should be obvious) recognizes that a large percentage of the residents he wants to attract would not like to live next to black folk. As a result, he purposely turns down the offers of black folk. He is charged with violating the Equal Opportunity Housing Act (or whatever it's called).

Is he racist? Not necessarily. He might just be trying to maximize his profit though he has no personal prejudices. Yet, folks use this as evidence of racism.

Now, our fine President DT provides many other bits of evidence of racism, but if the only evidence we had was his selling (or leasing? can't recall) discrimination, we might conclude he's a greedy son of a bitch, but not necessarily a racist.

I actually think this conclusion is reasonable, but I'd wager I'm in the minority.
 
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