[Split Thread] Racism and Mass shootings

[Norman Alexander]

49% of all murders are done by black people.

Yet black people make up only 13% of the USA.

Its a worthwhile discussion to have.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43

Counterpoint:

The majority of gun crimes in AUSTRALIA are carried out by whites, or Middle Eastern crime families feuding. Among blacks here, almost zero. Our DNA is the same as yours. So why the significant differences from the USA?

I'll give you a clue: It's not genetics...

 

[arthwollipot]

Can you think of a better reason??

"Cuz racism" isn't a reason. Or if it is, it is a reason so broad as to be useless.

 

[Lplus]

Counterpoint:

The majority of gun crimes in AUSTRALIA are carried out by whites, or Middle Eastern crime families feuding. Among blacks here, almost zero. Our DNA is the same as yours. So why the significant differences from the USA?

I'll give you a clue: It's not genetics...

Because Australian blacks (really?) are indigenes and not the descendants of slaves brought to the country?


Because there's such a small proportion of blacks in Australia that they can't form a significant subculture in cities?

Simply because there's such a small proportion of them in the population?

 

[arthwollipot]

Do you have any idea the kinds of **** we whitefullas inflicted on our indigenous population?

 

[Trausti]

Why?

Why is the rate disproportionately high?

Humans are animials. It doesn't make sense to assume that after 100K years of geographic separation, admixture with various archaic human populations, and different selective events that we'd all be absolutely the same.

Fst in humans.

 

[Lothian]

Humans are animials. It doesn't make sense to assume that after 100K years of geographic separation, admixture with various archaic human populations, and different selective events that we'd all be absolutely the same.

Fst in humans.
[qimg]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Colorful_FST_average_nonfull.png/1024px-Colorful_FST_average_nonfull.png[/qimg]

Can you overlay mass shooting data on that chart and show that it is relevant to the thread or take your crap elsewhere.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Because Australian blacks (really?) are indigenes and not the descendants of slaves brought to the country?

As Arth said, do you have the faintest understanding of how slave-like the Australian aborigines were treated by whites?

Because there's such a small proportion of blacks in Australia that they can't form a significant subculture in cities?

*Chuckle* Redfern waves at you, ironically.

Simply because there's such a small proportion of them in the population?

Ah, you may just be seeing an inkling of why this "genetics" nonsense is exactly that. Ponder that line some more!

 

[Lplus]

As Arth said, do you have the faintest understanding of how slave-like the Australian aborigines were treated by whites?

but they weren't transported from another continent - which was part of my point...

*Chuckle* Redfern waves at you, ironically.

Ah, I only stayed in Surrey Hills that once - I guess the sounds of gunfire don't reach that far...

Ah, you may just be seeing an inkling of why this "genetics" nonsense is exactly that. Ponder that line some more!

Population numbers? come on now you're just being coy now...

And what's genetics got to do with it? cultural behaviour doesn't rely on genetics.

 

[arthwollipot]

but they weren't transported from another continent - which was part of my point...

This isn't a competition to see which set of British colonists treated the indigenous population the worst, but that really doesn't matter.

 

[arthwollipot]

Humans are animials. It doesn't make sense to assume that after 100K years of geographic separation, admixture with various archaic human populations, and different selective events that we'd all be absolutely the same.

That's a very colourful picture, and it has some numbers on it.

Care to tell us what the everlasting **** you're talking about?

 

[Susheel]

How much does the possibility that Black Americans are more liable to be charged for crimes than whites factor into this?

 

[Lplus]

This isn't a competition to see which set of British colonists treated the indigenous population the worst, but that really doesn't matter.

NA asked for differences between american gun crime statistics and australian gun crime statistic wrt black people. I put forward some differences.

Do you deny those differences exist?

Perhaps you should ask NA to elucidate his own theory?

 

[arthwollipot]

NA asked for differences between american gun crime statistics and australian gun crime statistic wrt black people. I put forward some differences.

Black American slaves were stolen from another continent and put to work on cotton plantations and bought and sold like property, yes indeed. Slavery was awful and a crime against humanity. Indigenous Australians were systematically massacred, and their children taken from them to be "integrated" into white families in a deliberate and organised government-sanctioned intent to destroy their culture and heritage during a time when it was official government policy to encourage immigration by specifically white Europeans and bar other ethnicities from coming.

It isn't a competition. Both have very good reasons to be very angry at white British colonials. Black Americans routinely have guns, while Indigenous Australians don't.

How do you explain that difference?

 

[Trausti]

Can you overlay mass shooting data on that chart and show that it is relevant to the thread or take your crap elsewhere.

 

[Trausti]

That's a very colourful picture, and it has some numbers on it.

Care to tell us what the everlasting **** you're talking about?

That there are differences in human population groups. That difference is an explanation for disparate group outcomes.

 

[arthwollipot]

That there are differences in human population groups. That difference is an explanation for disparate group outcomes.

I'm seeing numbers and colours. Numbers and colours aren't an explanation for ****.

In your second map (please learn to use the imgw tags) what's your explanation for the blob of dark in north-east Montana and the two in South Dakota. Are there a lot of African-Americans on those so-called "Indian Reservations"?

 

[Trausti]

I'm seeing numbers and colours. Numbers and colours aren't an explanation for ****.

In your second map (please learn to use the imgw tags) what's your explanation for the blob of dark in north-east Montana and the two in South Dakota. Are there a lot of African-Americans on those so-called "Indian Reservations"?

The numbers and colors reflect Fst genetic distance between population groups. And, yes, there is a high homicide rate on Indian Reservations.

 

[arthwollipot]

The numbers and colors reflect Fst genetic distance between population groups.

I'm sorry, did you spring a leak just there?

And, yes, there is a high homicide rate on Indian Reservations.

Why, do you think?

 

[Shalamar]

Racists gonna racist. Though I've rarely seen someone so blatant on here about it.

 

[arthwollipot]

Racists gonna racist. Though I've rarely seen someone so blatant on here about it.

I agree, but I'm trying to break down why someone is racist. "Racist" is not an explanation for anything - people have to learn to be racist, and they become racist for what they believe are "good" reasons. I want to know what those reasons are.

Mods, if you think a new thread for this line of inquiry is warranted, make it so, but I think this thread is and always has been fundamentally about racism, so I think it's on-topic.

 

[Trausti]

Racists gonna racist. Though I've rarely seen someone so blatant on here about it.

If your assumptions cannot withstand inspection, why hold onto those assumptions?

 

[Trausti]

I agree, but I'm trying to break down why someone is racist. "Racist" is not an explanation for anything - people have to learn to be racist, and they become racist for what they believe are "good" reasons. I want to know what those reasons are.

Accepting that humans are biodiverse, just like was accept for all other life on this planet, is an obvious implication of evolution and natural selection. Name calling doesn't change the natural world.

 

[Lothian]

[qimg]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GF2oGcGXAAEon85?format=jpg&name=small[/qimg]

No, that is a different chart. I asked you to overlay shooting data on your original chart to show that it is relevant to the thread. Of course we both know that doing do will show absolutely no correlation, which is why you posted a totally different chart, which also doesn't prove anything.

 

[Trausti]

No, that is a different chart. I asked you to overlay shooting data on your original chart to show that it is relevant to the thread. Of course we both know that doing do will show absolutely no correlation, which is why you posted a totally different chart, which also doesn't prove anything.

 

[arthwollipot]

Accepting that humans are biodiverse, just like was accept for all other life on this planet, is an obvious implication of evolution and natural selection. Name calling doesn't change the natural world.

Sure, people are diverse. Diversity isn't the issue here. The issue is why different groups of people are treated differently. Simply saying "people are diverse" doesn't prove anything - it's a trivially true statement. How and why that diversity affects peoples' behaviour is what matters.

 

[arthwollipot]

[qimg]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/African_American_Population_by_Census_Tract_.gif/800px-African_American_Population_by_Census_Tract_.gif[/qimg]

[qimg]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/2013_Chicago_Homicide_Map.png/350px-2013_Chicago_Homicide_Map.png[/qimg]

Cool. So you've shown us what appears to be a correlation. Do you have an explanation for that?

 

[Lothian]

[qimg]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/African_American_Population_by_Census_Tract_.gif/800px-African_American_Population_by_Census_Tract_.gif[/qimg]

[qimg]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/2013_Chicago_Homicide_Map.png/350px-2013_Chicago_Homicide_Map.png[/qimg]

Still a different chart.
Overlay shooting data on your FST chart to show it is relevant and that propensity to shoot is linked to variation and we can see that the further you vary from one nationality the more likely you are to shoot someone.
.

 

[Lplus]

Black American slaves were stolen from another continent and put to work on cotton plantations and bought and sold like property, yes indeed. Slavery was awful and a crime against humanity. Indigenous Australians were systematically massacred, and their children taken from them to be "integrated" into white families in a deliberate and organised government-sanctioned intent to destroy their culture and heritage during a time when it was official government policy to encourage immigration by specifically white Europeans and bar other ethnicities from coming.

It isn't a competition. Both have very good reasons to be very angry at white British colonials. Black Americans routinely have guns, while Indigenous Australians don't.

How do you explain that difference?

Which difference? NA was referring to differences between homicide RATES given equal availability of guns, not availability of guns in different countries.

You're the one who insists on pushing away from differences in cultural behaviour to differences in gun availability. Are you afraid to discuss differences in cultural behaviour?

 

[arthwollipot]

Which difference? NA was referring to differences between homicide RATES given equal availability of guns, not availability of guns in different countries.

You're the one who insists on pushing away from differences in cultural behaviour to differences in gun availability. Are you afraid to discuss differences in cultural behaviour?

Afraid? The actual **** are you talking about? Afraid?

If that's your debate tactic, I'm out.

 

[Trausti]

Sure, people are diverse. Diversity isn't the issue here. The issue is why different groups of people are treated differently. Simply saying "people are diverse" doesn't prove anything - it's a trivially true statement. How and why that diversity affects peoples' behaviour is what matters.

How and why do different dog breeds behave differently? Socioeconomic factors.

 

[Trausti]

Still a different chart.
Overlay shooting data on your FST chart to show it is relevant and that propensity to shoot is linked to variation and we can see that the further you vary from one nationality the more likely you are to shoot someone.
.

That's not the purpose for mentioning Fst. It's to show that humans are biodiverse. The genetic difference between an English and Bantu person is 0.23. Between dogs and wolves Fst=0.165. So how far away you are from any nationality has nothing to do with it. It's just that there's this pattern that keeps occuring.

NYC

 

[arthwollipot]

How and why do different dog breeds behave differently? Socioeconomic factors.

Please elaborate. What socioeconomic factors, and in what ways do they affect how people are treated?

To extend your metaphor, different groups of people are like different breeds of dog. They behave differently, for no reason other than that's the way they are. Are you sure this is the metaphor you want to be going with?

 

[arthwollipot]

That's not the purpose for mentioning Fst. It's to show that humans are biodiverse. The genetic difference between an English and Bantu person is 0.23. Between dogs and wolves Fst=0.165. So how far away you are from any nationality has nothing to do with it. It's just that there's this pattern that keeps occuring.

Let's grant that there's a pattern. I'm not going to argue that for now. Why does this pattern exist? What does this pattern tell us?

 

[catsmate]

Black males - some but clearly not the majority - have a higher tendency to anti-social behavior.

Exploring the association between the 2-repeat allele of the MAOA gene promoter polymorphism and psychopathic personality traits, arrests, incarceration, and lifetime antisocial behavior

Oh look a decade old rehash of the MAO-A nonsense.

 

[catsmate]

This silly genetic nonsense was debunked in the 1970's.

Ah, I remember the 'XYY' nonsense.
But this is the MAO-A nonsense from ~2010.
Some things keep getting rehashed.

 

[catsmate]

Debunked before maping of the human genome? Okay.

This merely demonstrates your ignorance. The nonsensical rubbish you posted is merely a newer version of the 'XYY' drivel of the '70s.

 

[arthwollipot]

Next thing you know he'll be quoting The Bell Curve.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Which difference? NA was referring to differences between homicide RATES given equal availability of guns, not availability of guns in different countries.

Nope, not what I said. Shall I reiterate?

It's not about "homicide rates", and not about "availability of guns". I pointed out that, when gun crimes happen in Australia, the vast majority is by "non-black" people, i.e. races notionally cast as "whites" in the USA.

Which goes against the idea that some genetic factor in "blacks" is a reason/cause of violence in their communities.

 

[Lplus]

Nope, not what I said. Shall I reiterate?

It's not about "homicide rates", and not about "availability of guns". I pointed out that, when gun crimes happen in Australia, the vast majority is by "non-black" people, i.e. races notionally cast as "whites" in the USA.

Which goes against the idea that some genetic factor in "blacks" is a reason/cause of violence in their communities.

Yeah, yeah, we already got that - which is why i was referring to cultural differences - or do you think that cultural differences are because of genetics? Personally I don't.

 

[Trausti]

Please elaborate. What socioeconomic factors, and in what ways do they affect how people are treated?

To extend your metaphor, different groups of people are like different breeds of dog. They behave differently, for no reason other than that's the way they are. Are you sure this is the metaphor you want to be going with?

Dude, dogs are not different because of socioeconomic factors. They're different because of selection and ancestry. Just like all other life on this planet. It's never been explained why those forces that affect all other life don't apply to humans.