Race Fraud

[Rolfe]

IMO anyone can be part of that ethno-cultural group so long as they have lived within that culture and shared the experience of people within that culture. If you grew up in a Scottish community and shared the same experiences as all the Scottish people around you, you should be considered Scottish regardless of your DNA. Conversely someone who hasn't lived that life an hasn't shared those experiences should probably refrain from claiming that culture, even if they share DNA with it, because genetic differences between groups of humans is to small to be relevant.

Not arguing with that. My newsagent is Scottish, despite having 100% Pakistani genetics.

Donald Trump isn't. So there. (Although the comedy sketch on BBC Alba in which the Donald is a Gaelic speaker - he could have been, as his mother was - is in touch with a couson in the Outer Hebrides and phones him - in Gaelic - for advice every week is however hilarious.)

 

[d4m10n]

If you grew up in a Scottish community and shared the same experiences as all the Scottish people around you, you should be considered Scottish regardless of your DNA. Conversely someone who hasn't lived that life an hasn't shared those experiences should probably refrain from claiming that culture, even if they share DNA with it, because genetic differences between groups of humans is to small to be relevant.

Very interesting point, and it leads to a question of how much time one needs to spend embedded in a culture (or subculture) in order to claim it. Rachel Dolezal "was obviously immersed in black culture," according to WaPo.


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[Rolfe]

I've met a lot of people who have come to Scotland as adults and done that. The ones who simply fit in without making a big deal about it are fine. The ones who go around being plus royaliste que le roi are absolute pains in the neck.

I think there is some difference between growing up in a culture and adopting it as an adult.

 

[d4m10n]

I think there is some difference between growing up in a culture and adopting it as an adult.

Agreed, but it's one of those continuum things.



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[LondonJohn]

This was my line of reasoning and I'm surprised that it doesn't get more support here, of all places.

If transrace isn't a thing then it soon will be and we'll see a different take here. It'll go from, "why?" to, "why not you transracephobic piece of ******".

If mainstream psychiatry ever judges that identifying as an ethnicity other than one's ancestral ethnicity is neither a disorder nor the product of a disorder, then it will become "a thing". Until then, no it won't (in spite of your lack of understanding on how this all actually works).

 

[Rolfe]

Agreed, but it's one of those continuum things.

Yes. I remember a guy who had been born in Scotland to Scottish parents and lived there and went to school there till he was seven. His cruel and unfeeling parents then dragged him to live in England because his father had a new job there. He felt very Scottish and felt deprived to some extent. He said he practised his accent to make sure he didn't lose it.

I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. My god-daughter lived in England till she was four or five and still has traces of an English accent (one Scottish one English parent). There are always going to be people who have a choice of identities.

Actually my god-daughter's older brother, who was eleven or twelve when the family moved, made a point of trying to keep his English identity, to the point where he wasn't chosen for a Scottish boys' rugby team because the coach thought he wouldn't want to play for Scotland. The coach was disabused of that assumption as soon as it was discovered that was the reason for the non-selection!

 

[LondonJohn]

And your basis from this inane theorising?

Inane, huh? Interesting classification on your part there.

Here, for example, is some more "inane theorising", drawing exactly the same parallel. Still, you know what's inane and not inane, so I bow down to your superior judgement....

https://welldoing.org/article/rachel-dolezal-identity

 

[LondonJohn]

There is literally a word for doing exactly that.

ETA: Even more interesting link.

Sorry - I was wong, and I was imprecise in my presentation. Clearly when a) there have been huge social, societal and (sometimes) personal-jeopardy-related disadvantages to being black in white America, and b) a mixed-race person was/is of sufficiently light skin to conceivably pass as white.... then there was/is an obvious incentive to present as white. But I'd classify that as a very different mechanism than applies to white people choosing to pass as non-white.

 

[Mojo]

Yes. I remember a guy who had been born in Scotland to Scottish parents and lived there and went to school there till he was seven. His cruel and unfeeling parents then dragged him to live in England because his father had a new job there. He felt very Scottish and felt deprived to some extent. He said he practised his accent to make sure he didn't lose it.

I knew a guy who was born in Kensington (The Boltons, to be precise) who had certainly practiced his accent. Scots ancestry, but born, grew up, and was educated in London.

 

[Mojo]

Sorry - I was wong, and I was imprecise in my presentation. Clearly when a) there have been huge social, societal and (sometimes) personal-jeopardy-related disadvantages to being black in white America, and b) a mixed-race person was/is of sufficiently light skin to conceivably pass as white.... then there was/is an obvious incentive to present as white. But I'd classify that as a very different mechanism than applies to white people choosing to pass as non-white.

As I said, I don’t think people doing it out of necessity are on topic for the thread.

 

[d4m10n]

But I'd classify that as a very different mechanism than applies to white people choosing to pass as non-white.

I'd agree that the motivations are likely very different. When the descendants of Jefferson & Hemings passed into white society after manumission, they weren't trying to draw attention to their ethnicity (like Dolezal or Baldwin or Smith) they were just trying to blend in.

 

[Thermal]

I remember a German friend telling me she met an American who said, on learning that she was German, "Oh, I'm German too!" Sabine asked him which part of Germany he was from. The answer was something about a great-grandmother from some unspecified part of what is now Germany.

Sabine said (her words), "That doesn't make you German, that makes you American."

We get the same thing with people claiming to be Scottish, and not only (though probably mainly) Americans. I've had Americans on this forum insisting they were Scottish because reasons, apparently only having been to Scotland once or twice on holiday, if that.

It does raise the question though, at what point does a great grandparent cease to be relevant? Or how many great grandparents do you need of a particular nationality to be able to claim some sort of ethnic descent? Legal nationality is one thing, but claims based on someone who contributed only one-eighth of your DNA (maybe)? I don't know.

In the States, saying "I'm German" is loosely synonymous with saying "I'm descended from German immigrants", mostly because many of our families have been here very long. No one is really claiming it is their nationality or culture. I'm sure you know this, but maybe you don't realize how base it is to our thinking of "what we are".

 

[Rolfe]

Best keep that among yourselves then, if you don't want laughed at.

 

[smartcooky]

I had a school friend(Nigel) at "Intermediate" School (for Americans that is 7th and 8th Grade) who always felt he was he was at least part Māori. Nigel did have some Māori-like facial features , and his skin was a little darker than that of your average skinny white boy. However, the evidence seemed to rule this out - both his parents were white, his younger sister was white, very pale-skinned, blonde, blue-eyed (like her mum) and there was enough resemblance between them to judge they were brother and sister.

I am still in contact with Nigel. A year or two back, he told me he and his sister did DNA tests with AncestryDNA and both chose the "matches" option. The results clearly showed that he and his sister are only half-siblings - same mother, different father. The matches on his (biological) father's side revealed cousins, second cousins and a half-brother all living in the North Island..... all of them from Maori families.

So Nigel was right. He felt like he was Māori, and it turned out that he was. He told me that finding this out has been life-changing for him and his sister, and some of their memories of their childhoods that were a little murky, have come into focus.

 

[d4m10n]

Best keep that among yourselves then, if you don't want laughed at.

I don't see any problem with it if you attach the appropriate hyphenation at the end. Mark Lee Reinhardt was "German American," but as a WWII era serviceman he'd complain about Kraut cars (i.e. Mercedes, BMW).

He felt like he was Māori, and it turned out that he was. He told me that finding this out has been life-changing for him and his sister, and some of their memories of their childhoods that were a little murky, have come into focus.

That is a strikingly bizarre story. Was Nigel treated any differently than his peers?

 

[Norman Alexander]

Is there a form I can fill out to apply for a casino license in the USA? I feel like making a fortune by being "part" American native. Because I am directly descended from the Powhatan nation of what is now Virginia, USA.

Granted that was 10 generations ago (I have the actual family tree here somewhere), and probably millions of people today round the globe will have a similar ancestry. But my 1:2¹⁰th Algonquin blood must surely count for something!

 

[Thermal]

Is there a form I can fill out to apply for a casino license in the USA? I feel like making a fortune by being "part" American native. Because I am directly descended from the Powhatan nation of what is now Virginia, USA.

Granted that was 10 generations ago (I have the actual family tree here somewhere), and probably millions of people today round the globe will have a similar ancestry. But my 1:2¹⁰th Algonquin blood must surely count for something!

Honest answer: if you can prove ancestry to the relevant Tribal Council's satisfaction and gain recognized membership, you're a-rollin dem bones.

 

[Ziggurat]

I wouldn't count Warren as "pretending" to be anything.

I would.

She related a story from her grandmother saying she had some Native American blood, and DNA then backed it up.

Having a bit of Native American ancestry doesn't make one Native American, which she claimed to be multiple times in career-relevant contexts.

If she was going around constantly invoking her "native heritage," it would be one thing.

Why does it need to be constant for you to object?

 

[Norman Alexander]

Honest answer: if you can prove ancestry to the relevant Tribal Council's satisfaction and gain recognized membership, you're a-rollin dem bones.

I'm not even going to presume I qualify.

 

[autumn1971]

The errors are not in the Daily Fail piece now, so they’ve either been fixed or MSN introduced them. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...LYING-shes-Native-American-land-dean-job.html

Is this different from all those Americans who claim to be Irish?

I’ve said before, anytime you hear a bunch of white people complaining about black people saying they are “African-American” you are less than five minutes removed from the same white people describing themselves as Irish or Italian or Polish or whatever.

ETA: I’m talking about American white folks

 

[Ziggurat]

I had a school friend(Nigel) at "Intermediate" School (for Americans that is 7th and 8th Grade) who always felt he was he was at least part Māori. Nigel did have some Māori-like facial features , and his skin was a little darker than that of your average skinny white boy. However, the evidence seemed to rule this out - both his parents were white, his younger sister was white, very pale-skinned, blonde, blue-eyed (like her mum) and there was enough resemblance between them to judge they were brother and sister.

I am still in contact with Nigel. A year or two back, he told me he and his sister did DNA tests with AncestryDNA and both chose the "matches" option. The results clearly showed that he and his sister are only half-siblings - same mother, different father. The matches on his (biological) father's side revealed cousins, second cousins and a half-brother all living in the North Island..... all of them from Maori families.

So Nigel was right. He felt like he was Māori, and it turned out that he was. He told me that finding this out has been life-changing for him and his sister, and some of their memories of their childhoods that were a little murky, have come into focus.

In most cases, we only have a mother's word for who the father is. So when I read "both his parents were white", I immediately thought, were they though? And... yup.

 

[Ziggurat]

I’ve said before, anytime you hear a bunch of white people complaining about black people saying they are “African-American”

I don't think I've ever heard people complaining about that.

Not saying I doubt you. But maybe you need to find a better crowd.

 

[Norman Alexander]

I’ve said before, anytime you hear a bunch of white people complaining about black people saying they are “African-American” you are less than five minutes removed from the same white people describing themselves as Irish or Italian or Polish or whatever.

ETA: I’m talking about American white folks

It's sorta similar in most "white Anglo" countries.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't see any problem with it if you attach the appropriate hyphenation at the end. Mark Lee Reinhardt was "German American," but as a WWII era serviceman he'd complain about Kraut cars (i.e. Mercedes, BMW).

Or say "American of German descent" or something like that. The bit that gets laughed at is straight-up claiming you're German (or whatever).

I have some distant relations whose recent ancestors emigrated to the USA some 100 years ago or more. I was surprised when one sent me a family tree she'd been researching to find that the Scottish community in Dallas seemed to make a habit of marrying its own, and most of her great grand parents had actually come from Scotland. I suppose that wasn't uncommon in the early years of people moving to a new country, but I expect the habit died out.

 

[d4m10n]

Or say "American of German descent" or something like that. The bit that gets laughed at is straight-up claiming you're German (or whatever).

Fair enough. Most Americans lay claim to multiple potential hyphenates, if they stop to think about ancestry. Ethnic identity is necessarily fluid when you've got a dozen possibilities on the table.

 

[Rolfe]

I did an Ancestry test a couple of years ago. They revise their estimates slightly from time to time but I'm currently standing at 98% Scottish, 1% Irish and 1% Basque. The Basque part has only just appeared and I'm doubtful. Basically boring as hell and I was really hoping for something interesting, too.

 

[autumn1971]

I don't think I've ever heard people complaining about that.

Not saying I doubt you. But maybe you need to find a better crowd.

It’s Florida. I hear it in grocery lines, restaurants, etc.

 

[d4m10n]

I did an Ancestry test a couple of years ago. They revise their estimates slightly from time to time but I'm currently standing at 98% Scottish, 1% Irish and 1% Basque.

To give you a sense of how mixed up we are here in the States, I've got an ancestor surnamed Robb from Linlithgow, West Lothian, Scotland (born 16 Feb 1822) and my wife is descended from a bunch of people surnamed Stewart. That's just one nationality, but we've got basically anything in Europe covered between the two of us. If our kids wanted to get into Scottish Rite weirdness, they'd have the pedigree.

This is why I tend to agree with the idea that it's upbringing that really matters.

 

[Rolfe]

In this sort of situation yes, more than the actual place of birth. But place of birth does seem to count for a great deal when it comes to passports.

 

[smartcooky]

That is a strikingly bizarre story. Was Nigel treated any differently than his peers?

Nope, not that I recall.

 

[Warp12]

This was my line of reasoning and I'm surprised that it doesn't get more support here, of all places.

If transrace isn't a thing then it soon will be and we'll see a different take here. It'll go from, "why?" to, "why not you transracephobic piece of ******".

It is mesmerizing how the locals tap dance around this notion. I guess it would poke holes in their pet arguments. Funny.

 

[smartcooky]

In most cases, we only have a mother's word for who the father is. So when I read "both his parents were white", I immediately thought, were they though? And... yup.

From the standpoint of an onlooker, they just looked like a normal, kiwi, mum, dad and two kids family. Nigel did look a bit darker skinned, but not much darker. He had dark hair same his apparent "dad".

 

[Warp12]

From the standpoint of an onlooker, they just looked like a normal, kiwi, mum, dad and two kids family. Nigel did look a bit darker skinned, but not much darker. He had dark hair same his apparent "dad".

Secretly, many were talking about a "****** in the woodpile".

 

[Delvo]

Very interesting point, and it leads to a question of how much time one needs to spend embedded in a culture (or subculture) in order to claim it. Rachel Dolezal "was obviously immersed in black culture," according to WaPo.

Not just time but also intent. Dolezal made money from pretending to be black. She "immersed" herself in her fraud. (And that's what got Elizabeth Warren called "Pocahontas": not for being non-white, but for claiming to be non-white in a system that was set up to favor non-whites.)

In the States, saying "I'm German" is loosely synonymous with saying "I'm descended from German immigrants", mostly because many of our families have been here very long.

It's also just more efficient than tacking on extra modifiers to specify what everybody around already knows anyway. We're all Americans here, so obviously anybody asking about your ancestry is asking about your ancestry, so that's all that needs to be answered. It's really odd to see somebody getting wound up so tight about it.

I did an Ancestry test a couple of years ago... Basically boring as hell and I was really hoping for something interesting, too.

That could be a more common motivator than fraud for material gain. Many people like to have something about themselves that's different from what they're surrounded by, something a bit exotic... even while those who are stuck with such unique identifiers would often prefer to shed them if they could.

When I was a kid, the family in a house next to ours was a white American man, his wife from Korea, and their son. When their son brought other kids home with him, he told us to take our shoes off next to the door "because we're Korean". His mother heard this and yelled from another room "No we're not!".

 

[d4m10n]

Not just time but also intent. Dolezal made money from pretending to be black. She "immersed" herself in her fraud.

Is there some reason to believe she made more money than the median NAACP activist?

 

[TheGoldcountry]

I would.



Having a bit of Native American ancestry doesn't make one Native American, which she claimed to be multiple times in career-relevant contexts.



Why does it need to be constant for you to object?

I wouldn't object in either case, because I don't care. I was saying they are different, because they are.

 

[Cain]

There are benefits to group membership. You can accomplish things. When people say I'm not allowed to use the word "retard," I remind them that I'm retarded. Then they get all racist about it, "But you're so well-spoken. Are you really retarded?" and I'm like "Aaaahhhrrr!" Anyway, accomplishments. I want to be a role model. An activist. But not the Martin Luther King of retards. He got shot! I want to be the Helen Keller.

 

[bluesjnr]

I remember a German friend telling me she met an American who said, on learning that she was German, "Oh, I'm German too!" Sabine asked him which part of Germany he was from. The answer was something about a great-grandmother from some unspecified part of what is now Germany.

Sabine said (her words), "That doesn't make you German, that makes you American."

We get the same thing with people claiming to be Scottish, and not only (though probably mainly) Americans. I've had Americans on this forum insisting they were Scottish because reasons, apparently only having been to Scotland once or twice on holiday, if that.

It does raise the question though, at what point does a great grandparent cease to be relevant? Or how many great grandparents do you need of a particular nationality to be able to claim some sort of ethnic descent? Legal nationality is one thing, but claims based on someone who contributed only one-eighth of your DNA (maybe)? I don't know.

On a cruise, many years ago, I had an American insist he was Scottish because his ancestors were from Bath.

He told me about the time he visited Scotland (never mentioned Bath in that story) and how impressed he was with the town of Aye-er. It wasn't until he mentioned Rabbie that I realised he was talking about Ayr.

Such witless ignorance wrapped in hubris.

ETA - Corrected after zooterkins post below

 

[zooterkin]

On a cruise, many years ago, I had an American insist he was Scottish because his descendants were from Bath.

That really would be witless!

 

[bluesjnr]

Ethnicity is primarily a matter of what culture you identify with. DNA plays only a small role mostly in the form of largely irrelevant traits that may or may not result in a distinctly identifiable facial features.

Frequently, however, common appearance features result in groupings that make absolutely no sense at a genetic leave. Eg it's common in the US to think of African American as a group based on shared physical features even if they are much farther apart wrt to DNA that white Americans are. What ties African Americans together isn't DNA or even physical appearance it's cultural ties, shared experience and treatment within American society.


IMO anyone can be part of that ethno-cultural group so long as they have lived within that culture and shared the experience of people within that culture. If you grew up in a Scottish community and shared the same experiences as all the Scottish people around you, you should be considered Scottish regardless of your DNA. Conversely someone who hasn't lived that life an hasn't shared those experiences should probably refrain from claiming that culture, even if they share DNA with it, because genetic differences between groups of humans is to small to be relevant.

I was born in Scotland, as were all my siblings, I've lived here all my life apart from a few years working abroad, I wouldn't live anywhere else. When you hear me speak you'd identify me as Scottish, I'm culturally ensconced in everything Scottish. I'm Scottish.

My mother was Irish and my father is English.

I agree with you.