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Prison

BartholomewWest

Thinker
Joined
Jan 20, 2025
Messages
189
Location
Mahanoy City
When I was incarcerated in March of 2018 for Terroristic Threats and Terroristic Threats Cause Serious Public Inconvenience, I had the unfortunate experience of witnessing a wide variety of ethics violations firsthand. I survived the atrocity of our prison system.

Do you think prison reform can substantially reduce the amount of human rights violations?

If not, please elaborate.

It’s 11:30 pm, 8:00 pm is my set bedtime. I’m an old man.
 
Unclear on the question.

Do you mean can the prison system reform the prisoner to reduce the human rights violations that the convict commits?

Or do you ask whether reforming the prison system will correct its internal problems? If so, which are you referring to?

ETA: your profile says you are 35 years old. If you think you're an old man, I have some very bad news for you...
 
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When I was incarcerated in March of 2018 for Terroristic Threats and Terroristic Threats Cause Serious Public Inconvenience, I had the unfortunate experience of witnessing a wide variety of ethics violations firsthand. I survived the atrocity of our prison system.

Do you think prison reform can substantially reduce the amount of human rights violations?

If not, please elaborate.

It’s 11:30 pm, 8:00 pm is my set bedtime. I’m an old man.
Which prison? How long was your term? What are some of the violations you witnessed? What was the biggest threat to your survival?

---

Purely out of curiosity: Would you mind elaborating on how you got into prison? Was this a plea deal? Did you get convicted in a trial (bench or jury)? Was this a second or third offense?
 
Which prison? How long was your term? What are some of the violations you witnessed? What was the biggest threat to your survival?

---

Purely out of curiosity: Would you mind elaborating on how you got into prison? Was this a plea deal? Did you get convicted in a trial (bench or jury)? Was this a second or third offense?
Sorry about that, the prison is known as Schuylkill County Prison. I was kept unclothed, I was fed once a day (a bologna sandwich) I had no phone privileges, no book privileges, and I wasn't permitted to take a shower, brush my hair, shave, trim my fingernails, or brush my teeth. Many of the other prisoners were given the same treatment. As for witnessing violation, prison guards were paid off and gave the greenlight for another inmate to stab an unsuspecting prisoner.

They used liberal amounts of pepper spray on individuals with respiratory health conditions as well. I plead guilty to my crime and received 4 years of heightened security probation.
 
Sorry about that, the prison is known as Schuylkill County Prison. I was kept unclothed, I was fed once a day (a bologna sandwich) I had no phone privileges, no book privileges, and I wasn't permitted to take a shower, brush my hair, shave, trim my fingernails, or brush my teeth. Many of the other prisoners were given the same treatment. As for witnessing violation, prison guards were paid off and gave the greenlight for another inmate to stab an unsuspecting prisoner.
I don't believe you.
 
I don't believe you.
Where have you been, mate? This prison is notorious for it's sadistic guards, assisting in the cruelty and mistreatment of the inmates, including murder, and it's corrupt officials putting convicts in The Hole without the most nodding acquaintance with humanity... wait, am I thinking of the Shawshank Redemption? Morgan Freeman and Tim Robbins really delivered in those roles.
 
Well that escalated quickly. @arthwollipot , what's the basis for your disbelief? The narrative seems reasonable to me. It's certainly consistent with other things we've been told about American prisons.

I'm of the opinion that American prisons are badly in need of reform.
 
Well that escalated quickly. @arthwollipot , what's the basis for your disbelief? The narrative seems reasonable to me. It's certainly consistent with other things we've been told about American prisons.

I'm of the opinion that American prisons are badly in need of reform.
Oh, no doubt. But the description provided is cartoonishly evil. Enough so that I feel that it is more likely a fabrication or confabulation.
 
Oh, no doubt. But the description provided is cartoonishly evil. Enough so that I feel that it is more likely a fabrication or confabulation.
Sounds very similar to things I have heard before. Particularly descriptions I have heard of prisoners on suicide watch. The only baloney I detect is the sandwich.
 
I'm with Arth on this.

The prison named is a relatively new medium-security federal prison, with a low-security "prison farm" attached. The description provided seems like something out of Alcatraz or Shawshank rather than a modern late 20th century prison.

I have no doubt things could be grim and unfair inside US prisons, and ◊◊◊◊ goes down with corruption. But the list of facilities and privileges for prisoners, and the types of prisoners held, suggest this ain't the place being described.
 
According to this article many prisoners at that prison are on suicide watch and the original article dates back to 2006, so it's not that new.

Pictures of the facility suggest it is not new at all.

According to this Wikipedia article, the description of suicide watch closely matches what Bartholomew says about the conditions he was in....

People under suicide watch are put into an environment where it would be difficult for them to hurt themselves.
In many cases, any dangerous items will be removed from the area, such as sharp objects and some furniture, or they may be placed in a special padded cell, which has nothing outcropping from the walls (e.g., a clothes hook or door closing bracket) to provide a place for a ligature to be attached, and with only a drain-grill on the floor. They may be stripped of anything with which they might hurt themselves or use as a noose, including belts, neckties,[4] bras, shoes, shoelaces, socks, suspenders, glasses, necklaces, bed sheets and other items.[5]
They are only allowed small finger foods and no books. Any large pieces of food like pizza or crumpled pages of a book could be used for suffocation.[6]
In extreme cases, the inmate may be undressed entirely.
 
Yes, I'm sure that Prison Reform will come to benefit those to broke the law for the Orange Menace.

For everyone else, it will get worse, as more prisons are privatized and the DOJ will refuse to investigate obvious violations.

The US system as it stands does not function without a massive incarceration industry.
 
There are some confusing things going on. There is a Federal Correction Facility at Schuylkill and a Schuykill County Jail. As a rule in the US jails are run by local governments and generally worse conditions than most federal and state prisons. At least that's what I've been told and read. Folks are also not usually held in jails for very long.

Any rate, yes US prisons and jails need reform, I'm sure there are some exceptions to that rule.
I tend to agree with Arth in that the description of by Barth sounds rather extreme even by US jail standards. I have no idea if its true or not but it would be a rather different story if that was short term suicide watch or it was 6 months or 4 years.

To answer the OP, yes it is possible to reform and it should be done. Compare Scandi prison now versus 1850, I'm sure there is world of difference. So, somehow they reformed.
 
Sounds very similar to things I have heard before. Particularly descriptions I have heard of prisoners on suicide watch. The only baloney I detect is the sandwich.
The poster’s name also comes up on an inmate search of the prison’s records.
A nosey person could probably confirm convictions etc. odd that he’d dox himself here. Unless he’s not who he claims to be?
 
BartholomewWest was representing it as status quo for the American prison system.

If while incarcerated he was genuinely on suicide watch, that's awful and I'm glad he came through it okay, but to suggest that it is representative of average conditions as a whole is dishonest.
 
BartholomewWest was representing it as status quo for the American prison system.

If while incarcerated he was genuinely on suicide watch, that's awful and I'm glad he came through it okay, but to suggest that it is representative of average conditions as a whole is dishonest.
You really believe that US prisons are, on average, well run facilities staffed by competent and humane guards, with little to no corruption?

Even most Americans don't believe that.
 
You really believe that US prisons are, on average, well run facilities staffed by competent and humane guards, with little to no corruption?

Even most Americans don't believe that.
Did I say that I did?

I swear, this happens all the time. I say that the Earth is not a perfect sphere and the response is "do you really believe that the Earth is flat?"
 
BartholomewWest was representing it as status quo for the American prison system.

If while incarcerated he was genuinely on suicide watch, that's awful and I'm glad he came through it okay, but to suggest that it is representative of average conditions as a whole is dishonest.
You're challenging the veracity of a narrative that is entirely consistent with every other report we've received about the state of the US prison system over the past 20 years at least.

You pretend to be open to the possibility, but when someone claims to have experienced it first hand, your immediate response is to call them a liar to their face.
 
You're challenging the veracity of a narrative that is entirely consistent with every other report we've received about the state of the US prison system over the past 20 years at least.
It is entirely consistent with suicide watch (which exists for good and valid reasons). It's not entirely consistent with US prison conditions in general, remembering of course that the Earth is not flat, and conditions in US prisons still leave a lot to be desired.
You pretend to be open to the possibility, but when someone claims to have experienced it first hand, your immediate response is to call them a liar to their face.
I'm perfectly willing to believe that BartholomewWest had been placed on suicide watch. I will not ask him to confirm or deny that.
 
Sorry about that, the prison is known as Schuylkill County Prison. I was kept unclothed, I was fed once a day (a bologna sandwich) I had no phone privileges, no book privileges, and I wasn't permitted to take a shower, brush my hair, shave, trim my fingernails, or brush my teeth. Many of the other prisoners were given the same treatment. As for witnessing violation, prison guards were paid off and gave the greenlight for another inmate to stab an unsuspecting prisoner.

They used liberal amounts of pepper spray on individuals with respiratory health conditions as well. I plead guilty to my crime and received 4 years of heightened security probation.
If this is true, have you spoken to the ACLU? There may be a class action lawsuit you could start along with other former prisoners. That's just a guess, but maybe they could direct you to resources.


I'm not quite sure what "heightened security probation" is. Probation is usually a penalty that is less than going to prison. You have to meet with a probation officer on a regular basis and abide by other rules.
 
The prison named is a relatively new medium-security federal prison, with a low-security "prison farm" attached. The description provided seems like something out of Alcatraz or Shawshank rather than a modern late 20th century prison.
I think you are confusing it with a different prison.
Federal Correctional Institution, Schuylkill is a medium-security federal prison.

I believe that what the OP is referring to is actually a county jail. Here it is on Google maps. It looks pretty old school. I took a virtual walk around the perimeter.

It's not so easy to find information about this facility, like when was it built, but here is a weird story:
Man ‘with nowhere to go’ refuses to leave prison
POTTSVILLE, SCHUYLKILL COUNTY (WBRE/WYOU) — A man was returned to jail after police say he refused to leave the prison after being released.
The photo appears to be the same facility.

Just from the way the building looks, and the walls around it, it looks like something that is quite old. The way stones were used as building materials, for example (in particular, the perimeter wall).
 
I think you are confusing it with a different prison.
Federal Correctional Institution, Schuylkill is a medium-security federal prison.

I believe that what the OP is referring to is actually a county jail. Here it is on Google maps. It looks pretty old school. I took a virtual walk around the perimeter.

It's not so easy to find information about this facility, like when was it built, but here is a weird story:
Man ‘with nowhere to go’ refuses to leave prison

The photo appears to be the same facility.

Just from the way the building looks, and the walls around it, it looks like something that is quite old. The way stones were used as building materials, for example (in particular, the perimeter wall).
Yep, I'm gonna leave this with you. To me, the whole OP story sounds entirely shifty.
 
BartholomewWest was representing it as status quo for the American prison system.
If while incarcerated he was genuinely on suicide watch, that's awful and I'm glad he came through it okay, but to suggest that it is representative of average conditions as a whole is dishonest.
BartholomewWest was talking about some very specific things that happened to him and which he witnessed in the prison.
Sorry about that, the prison is known as Schuylkill County Prison.
I was kept unclothed, I was fed once a day (a bologna sandwich) I had no phone privileges, no book privileges, and I wasn't permitted to take a shower, brush my hair, shave, trim my fingernails, or brush my teeth.Many of the other prisoners were given the same treatment. As for witnessing violation, prison guards were paid off and gave the greenlight for another inmate to stab an unsuspecting prisoner.
He did not state whether he was on suicide watch or not, and you didn't bother to ask. Your entire response to him relating the stories above was a one sentence complete dismissal.
I don't believe you.

There was no nuance in your dismissal. No attempt to figure out if the OP might be universalizing his specific circumstances. All you did was claim the OP was lying and you have not even acknowledged the evidence that BartholomewWest is telling the truth.
 
Yep, I'm gonna leave this with you. To me, the whole OP story sounds entirely shifty.
I'm not vouching that it's true, but I'm staying agnostic for now.

It sounds like some things I have heard about. Like "solitary confinement" which is when you are already in prison but they want to punish you even more by taking away whatever small privileges the general population of prisoners normally enjoy.
 
I'm not vouching that it's true, but I'm staying agnostic for now.

It sounds like some things I have heard about. Like "solitary confinement" which is when you are already in prison but they want to punish you even more by taking away whatever small privileges the general population of prisoners normally enjoy.
I know what it is. At best, it sounds like extraordinary exaggeration due to exacerbating factors we don't know about. At worst, it's a fib.
 
BartholomewWest was talking about some very specific things that happened to him and which he witnessed in the prison.
...and implying that they were faults of the American prison system in general.
He did not state whether he was on suicide watch or not, and you didn't bother to ask. Your entire response to him relating the stories above was a one sentence complete dismissal.
I did not ask because it's none of my business and I don't assume that people who have experienced suicidal ideation in the past always want to talk about it.
There was no nuance in your dismissal. No attempt to figure out if the OP might be universalizing his specific circumstances. All you did was claim the OP was lying and you have not even acknowledged the evidence that BartholomewWest is telling the truth.
I only said that I didn't believe him. I did not say that he was lying. He could be honestly mistaken and believes that the situation that applied specifically to him at that one time is a systemic fault with the entire American prison system. Not believing someone does not automatically mean that they are deliberately lying.
 
...and implying that they were faults of the American prison system in general.

I did not ask because it's none of my business and I don't assume that people who have experienced suicidal ideation in the past always want to talk about it.

I only said that I didn't believe him. I did not say that he was lying. He could be honestly mistaken and believes that the situation that applied specifically to him at that one time is a systemic fault with the entire American prison system. Not believing someone does not automatically mean that they are deliberately lying.
He is saying what he has experienced or witnessed himself. He makes no comment about the entire American prison system.
 
...and implying that they were faults of the American prison system in general.

I did not ask because it's none of my business and I don't assume that people who have experienced suicidal ideation in the past always want to talk about it.

I only said that I didn't believe him. I did not say that he was lying. He could be honestly mistaken and believes that the situation that applied specifically to him at that one time is a systemic fault with the entire American prison system. Not believing someone does not automatically mean that they are deliberately lying.
I'm a little astonished to read this.

Is there something that BartholomewWest has done to make you so passive aggressively hostile to him and to any attempt at making you see that he may be telling you the truth.

You say that he implies the problems he saw were of the entire prison system in general and yet your brusque dismissal that "I don't believe you." does not imply you think he is lying? Why do you not extend any charity to him but expect it to be owed to you? Why do you think it is constructive to add your dismissive commentary while simultaneously claiming it is not your business?
 
He is saying what he has experienced or witnessed himself. He makes no comment about the entire American prison system.
I don't know how else to interpret this:
I survived the atrocity of our prison system.
He didn't say that he survived being placed on suicide watch. He survived the system.
 
You say that he implies the problems he saw were of the entire prison system in general and yet your brusque dismissal that "I don't believe you." does not imply you think he is lying? Why do you not extend any charity to him but expect it to be owed to you? Why do you think it is constructive to add your dismissive commentary while simultaneously claiming it is not your business?
I already explained why my not believing him does not necessarily imply that I think he is lying. I think he is probably extrapolating from his personal experience to the entire system. While this is a logical fallacy (false generalisation), it is not lying. Lying is defined as deliberately expressing a falsehood in order to mislead. I don't think that's what he's doing.

I think a possible alternative is that he is ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ -ing, in Harry Frankfurt's sense of the word - ie. saying things with no regard to their truth value. That's not lying either, which is why Frankfurt wrote his manuscript arguing for the term in order to distinguish it.
 
I already explained why my not believing him does not necessarily imply that I think he is lying. I think he is probably extrapolating from his personal experience to the entire system. While this is a logical fallacy (false generalisation), it is not lying. Lying is defined as deliberately expressing a falsehood in order to mislead. I don't think that's what he's doing.

I think a possible alternative is that he is ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ -ing, in Harry Frankfurt's sense of the word - ie. saying things with no regard to their truth value. That's not lying either, which is why Frankfurt wrote his manuscript arguing for the term in order to distinguish it.
Dude, this is epic bad faith on your part.
 
While the failings of the US prison system are regular, familiar fodder for movies and TV, I was thrown by a tale which began When I was incarcerated [...] I was kept unclothed... I don't remember that bit of The Shawshank Redemption, so it first made me wonder if this was intended seriously. No explanation for this unexpected humiliation followed, just a list of further privations. I didn't know what to make of it.
 
While the failings of the US prison system are regular, familiar fodder for movies and TV, I was thrown by a tale which began When I was incarcerated [...] I was kept unclothed... I don't remember that bit of The Shawshank Redemption, so it first made me wonder if this was intended seriously. No explanation for this unexpected humiliation followed, just a list of further privations. I didn't know what to make of it.
I suggest you ask him. Hope that the negative comments have not frightened him away.

I don't know how else to interpret this:

He didn't say that he survived being placed on suicide watch. He survived the system.
All what this means is that he is not very articulate, maybe not well educated. He described what was normal in that jail. What is normal outside of that jail he does not know, nor did he try to say. He survived the system in the jail. Nothing more. Read the context.
 
Would never have expected that Arth would be attacked for being an apologist for the US Penal system. His position is defensible, Barth's story was extreme even by American standards and he certainly implied it was indicative of the whole system, and he seemed to imply he'd been kept in those conditions for potentially years. Does not outright say it but certainly implies it.
 
I only said that I didn't believe him. I did not say that he was lying. He could be honestly mistaken and believes that the situation that applied specifically to him at that one time is a systemic fault with the entire American prison system. Not believing someone does not automatically mean that they are deliberately lying.
We've been receiving reports for decades about exactly this kind of systemic fault with the entire American prison system. Conditions are terrible. Staff are corrupt. Violence is rampant. Policies are draconian, ineffective, or both.

The OP's account is entirely consistent with the many years of reports we've received, about systemic problems in the American prison system. Even if the OP is mistaken about the prevalence of the conditions he describes, it's reasonable for him to assume that if the reports are true in his case, they're probably true systemically.
 
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