Bamber will be out soon, but there is a thread for that.
Oscar Pistorius shoots girlfriend - Part 2
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The Atheist
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Yes, and like all good skeptics when wrong, you're not even entertaining the idea that you're wrong.
The thread has been going in circles for thousands of posts.
Why stop now?
LondonJohn
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Well (to continue the magic circle once again....) Pistorius was not specifically convicted of the murder of Reeva Steenkamp. And that's the critical point underpinning why Samson is wrong on this issue.
Rather, Pistorius was convicted of the murder of someone he knew to be a human being - that is to say, he intentionally fired a lethal weapon through a thin wooden internal door in the direction of someone he believed to be a human being, in an act which he must have known could have resulted in the death or very serious injury of that person, at a point where he provably was not in real or imminent threat of personal harm from the person behind that door. Whether he believed it was Steenkamp or the mythical intruder behind that door, we will never know (unless Pistorius ever confesses to knowing it was Steenkamp, of course), though logic and all the available evidence/testimony very strongly suggests (IMO) that Pistorius knew full well it was Steenkamp. But in fact the identity of the victim is immaterial to the murder conviction.
Here in the UK, there was a famous case several years ago in Liverpool where a gang member cycled to a pub car park, and opened fire in the direction of a rival gang member on the other side of the car park. He was a bad shot and he missed his intended target, but instead he struck and killed an 11-year-old boy bystander. The gunman was subsequently found and convicted of murder: in this instance, he hadn't even intended to harm the boy, but the court correctly found for murder on the basis that the very act of intentionally firing a lethal weapon in the (by definition) general direction of a human being constitutes murder if you happen to hit and kill someone. And while SA and E&W laws will obviously differ, SA statute and case law is heavily based on that of E&W, so this is a relevant comparator.
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Ampulla of Vater
Illuminator
Wait, what? Is your point here that 4 bullets could not be “sure to kill” and because of that and because of a tragic happenstance that one of the bullets “shattered her head,” is some kind of proof of a lack of intent to kill?
Metullus
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Her killing was just an unfortunate accident. He should ave been charged with "discharging a firearm in a careless manner". Or something...
trustbutverify
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Now you've got it. A fish dying while someone is shooting fish in a barrel is simply a tragic accident.
Samson forgets that an intent to kill isn't a necessary part of an act of murder, as LondonJohn has just explained (again). We're right, you're wrong, Samson, and that's even when we accept the points you raise in favour of your belief.
Is this new information?
................. " The documentary reveals for the first time that a mysterious picture message was sent to Pistorius' phone shortly before the murder which may have sparked a fierce row between him and Reeva.
Previously, it was thought that Pistorius had reacted in a jealous rage to a message on Reeva's phone but the series suggests it may have been the other way around.
Phone records obtained by the production crew show that he received a message at 1.48am on the morning of February 14, 2013 – just 10 minutes neighbours said they heard shouting come from Pistorius' home.
His mobile was later sent off for analysis by police and found to have been connected to a computer owned by Pistorius' brother, Carl.
Recalling how police suspected Carl had wiped the phone clean, journalist Toby Shapshak tells the documentary: "When the phone comes back eventually and the information on the phone is accessed it shows that the phone has been plugged into a computer called 'titaniumhulk', which is the Twitter handle of his brother Carl.
"Now if we look at the data usage of his phone at that time, in the middle of all this there is a very suspicious amount of data and it is at 1.48am in the morning that the duration of the data connection is 309 seconds, which is 5minutes an 15 seconds and it amounts to 58kb.
"If that was one individual message it would probably be a photograph or a WhatsApp message.
"The interesting thing about this is that it's about 10 minutes before one of his neighbour's says she hears a lot of arguing."
Author Melinda Ferguson, who has written a biography on Pistorius, tells the documentary: "Most people think 'Oh Reeva was so beautiful, I'm sure Oscar was so jealous of Reeva and she must have been cheating". But what happens if it was the other way round?
"What happens if it was Oscar who was cheating? And it was Reeva who was insecure and jealous, feeling like her relationship was falling apart?
"So for me it's really interesting to think of it the other way, that it was Reeva who was trying to see what messages were being sent to Oscar's phone.".......
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12124272
This looks like hard data that may have woken Oscar, thus he gets up and moves the fan. This wakes Reeva who slips silently to the bathroom.
On the other hand the screaming can still be timed to come after the gunshots, which is the only plausible way Oscar's story is true.
................. " The documentary reveals for the first time that a mysterious picture message was sent to Pistorius' phone shortly before the murder which may have sparked a fierce row between him and Reeva.
Previously, it was thought that Pistorius had reacted in a jealous rage to a message on Reeva's phone but the series suggests it may have been the other way around.
Phone records obtained by the production crew show that he received a message at 1.48am on the morning of February 14, 2013 – just 10 minutes neighbours said they heard shouting come from Pistorius' home.
His mobile was later sent off for analysis by police and found to have been connected to a computer owned by Pistorius' brother, Carl.
Recalling how police suspected Carl had wiped the phone clean, journalist Toby Shapshak tells the documentary: "When the phone comes back eventually and the information on the phone is accessed it shows that the phone has been plugged into a computer called 'titaniumhulk', which is the Twitter handle of his brother Carl.
"Now if we look at the data usage of his phone at that time, in the middle of all this there is a very suspicious amount of data and it is at 1.48am in the morning that the duration of the data connection is 309 seconds, which is 5minutes an 15 seconds and it amounts to 58kb.
"If that was one individual message it would probably be a photograph or a WhatsApp message.
"The interesting thing about this is that it's about 10 minutes before one of his neighbour's says she hears a lot of arguing."
Author Melinda Ferguson, who has written a biography on Pistorius, tells the documentary: "Most people think 'Oh Reeva was so beautiful, I'm sure Oscar was so jealous of Reeva and she must have been cheating". But what happens if it was the other way round?
"What happens if it was Oscar who was cheating? And it was Reeva who was insecure and jealous, feeling like her relationship was falling apart?
"So for me it's really interesting to think of it the other way, that it was Reeva who was trying to see what messages were being sent to Oscar's phone.".......
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12124272
This looks like hard data that may have woken Oscar, thus he gets up and moves the fan. This wakes Reeva who slips silently to the bathroom.
On the other hand the screaming can still be timed to come after the gunshots, which is the only plausible way Oscar's story is true.
Yes I know this is more than two years too late, but I just noticed this piece of idiocy.
The comment "God help Pistorius if a jury were let loose on this case, where it is beyond any doubt he thought he was shooting an intruder". Well if that is what Pistorius really thought then given the circumstances, (The "intruder" being in the Bathroom behind a closed door.), then Pistorius is guilty as sin.
Except it was a bad angle for intent to kill, and nearly failed.
Just a matter of thinking like a handicapped guy stupid enough to be a gun nut.
rockinkt
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So if there was "no intent to kill" why would he shoot a gun into a bathroom when he thought there was someone in it? In other words - what did he state was the desired outcome he wanted when he shot into the bathroom?
He was prepared for the worst in a country of badly treated and dangerous predators.
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
And murdered someone.
Thanks for the red herring. Who was talking about "intent to kill"? That is irrelevant to my point. The point is he was shooting into a bathroom with a door closed at a person he knew was inside. A person who at the time was no threat to him. (This is assuming you accept his version of what happened.) After all the person was in a bathroom behind a closed door. That shows reckless disregard. After all it is reasonably foreseeable that if you fire a gun into a closed room that you know is occupied by someone that you may kill or seriously injure them. "Intent to kill" is not required to convict someone in these circumstances. So even if this idiot's version of events is correct; his own version of events makes him guilty has sin. And again "intent to kill" is irrelevant to his guilt under the circumstances.
We have been over this, its a bit like Shrodinger's cat.
If the door was open then I accept intent to kill, with the door closed and a panic situation intent is arguable. I am naturally disposed to a mitigating view of crime, and I am not confident I would not make such an error, except for the simple fact I don't have a gun or any interest in them. We are fortunate in New Zealand that way.
except the law also applies to Schrodinger's cat. why do you keep ignoring the law the way it is written?
The Atheist
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It shows.
I wouldn't count those chooks too soon.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12199960
Again "intent to kill" is irrelevant in this situation.
wasapi
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Samson, respectfully, you are being obtuse. What you would, or would not do in a situation is not evidence in this case, and seems to be obfuscated by your cries of non-guilt.
rockinkt
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I find that answer hard to take seriously and it truly adds nothing in the way of useful information.
Could you please be specific? What was his stated reason for shooting into the bathroom four times?
Because it is out of kilter with his sympathies. Obviously, in Samsonworld, sympathies outweigh the rule of law.
Hard Cheese
Critical Thinker
Playing devil's advocate here (because personally I don't believe Pistorious' story for a second) how does he know the person inside is of no threat to him? If you accept that Pistorious has a working knowledge of guns, and that he must have known that firing though a door into toilet cubicle would likely kill the occupant, isn't the opposite also true? If he believed the intruder in the cubicle was armed, then he would also know that the intruder could equally shoot through the door and hit him. You could still make an argument for self defence.
There is considerable evidence that Pistorius' account is correct.
The primary source is the extensive and realistic timelines and conversations logged by the various authorities that concur with his account.
The forum owner Icerat was a seriouis analyst who concluded Pistorius' account is correct, and then an Amanda Knox guilter, Thoughtful went into serious detail saying the same thing. Interestingly she proved in that case the postal police and Raffaele Sollecito were in accord with their evidence, so she is a fair and serious mathematician.
And the trial judge Thokozile Masipa concurred.
I think there is indeed a thread concensus that the question is whether Oscar should have shot at a closed door, but not that he believed his girlfriend, who came bearing a valentine card saying "this is the night I declare my love for you" was the person he knew was behind that door.
..........and for the thousandth time, even if his story is 100% correct (which I too accept as likely), then he is guilty of murder.
There is no evidence that any intruder shot at him, neither is there evidence that he realistically could have thought the person was armed. Further self defence means precisely that. There is no evidence that he could realistically have thought the person was trying to kill him, assault him. After all the person was in the bathroom with a door closed! Since there was no way, from his own story, that he could have thought the person could realistically have been armed, and since even his own version of the story indicates no reasonable basis for him thinking he was about to be assaulted or being the victim of a murder; self defence won't wash. Fantasizing the person has a gun won't get someone off in that situation. I hope.
Hard Cheese
Critical Thinker
Had the event occurred in the United States, given the rate of gun ownership and incidence of gun violence, would you be willing to bet an intruder was in your house unarmed? South Africa's homicide rate involving guns is 5 times higher per capita than the USA, wouldn't it simply be statistically prudent to assume an intruder is armed? Why on earth would you automatically assume they were unarmed? There must be a reason people live behind high walls and razor wire there, it can't be for aesthetics.
As I said, if Oscar can shoot through a door, so can an intruder. Neither party would have knowledge of whether the other was armed or not.
What exactly in his story prevents his intruder from being armed?
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This is just misinformed nonsense. If there had been an intruder, and if that intruder was armed, this would still have been murder. You are falling into the classic trap of trying to apply your country's laws to another country. Noting your country of residence, I'm wondering if you being here making the same spurious arguments as Samson, also a Kiwi, is entirely coincidental.
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Yes utter nonsense. I wonder how much fanboism is playing a part. I’m certain that is the case with Samson, who seems transfixed with Oscar’s athletic ability.
My opinion is that he deliberately murdered his wife in a fit of rage. Doesn’t matter what I think though. He’s where he deserves to be
Hard Cheese
Critical Thinker
Oh, I fully understand that. That he is guilty of murder under South African law doesn't make Pistorius' argument of mitigation, of acting in self-defence, necessarily untrue. It's not an unreasonable argument, and his best bet to escape with a light sentence. He would have got away with it too, if it weren't for that meddling Nel.
Come on, man. Go back and read the first half of the first sentence of post #944. Do I have to repost it for you?
Hard Cheese
Critical Thinker
I agree with you. As I posted in #944, personally I don't believe Pistorious' story for a second. Not because I think that a person couldn't be in a state of panic and fear to the point where they thought that shooting into a locked door at an intruder was a good idea, but because his story about believing Reeva was in the bed was a load of bollocks.
Well, let me just say that I'll keep a watching brief. Some people come here and pretend to be playing devil's advocate as some sort of safety net against posting an unpopular or hard-to-defend viewpoint.
Sorry but you can't just fantasize that a person was armed if your claiming self defence against an attacker. And further even if the person was armed self defence involves that the person was a direct and immediate threat to your life like they fired at you first or shoved a gun in your face, or threatened to kill you etc. Simply having a gun is not a an immediate threat to your life. Your argument would turn case after case of death by reckless disregard of people's lives into "self defence" because people will fantasize the person was armed.
Of course are you seriously willing to argue if the mythical intruder had in fact been armed he would have been acting in "self defence" if he shot Oscar through the door after all Oscar might have been armed?! The point is even if the person had been armed he would not have been an immediate direct threat to Oscar and therefore by firing through the door Oscar was not acting in "self defence" by any legal logic, he was acting in reckless disregard at best. As I said there is no evidence of any so-called "intruder" firing a gun and Oscar doesn't claim that happened.
Of course the "intruder" could have been armed, but in claiming self defence a fantasy that you thought the person was armed is not good enough and you must show that your life was in immediate peril and that it was reasonable for you to think so. Say like someone fired a gun at you, threatened your life while waving a gun etc. A person, even if armed, behind a bathroom door, who has not fired his alleged weapon or threatened you is not an immediate threat by most legal criteria.
Hard Cheese
Critical Thinker
In the eyes of the law, and after the fact, sure. But to claim people will always behave completely rationally and consider legal ramifications in what they believe to be a life-threatening situation is silly. Pistorius got what he legally deserved for his reckless action, but at the same time, I don't dismiss that genuine fear of ones life and a misguided belief of acting in self defence is a possibility. If you live in a country where gun-related violence and home invasions are common, wouldn't that just reinforce the idea that what you think is an intruder is likely to be armed?
Obviously no - he's an intruder in the process of committing a crime in someone else's house.
Sure, by most legal criteria. But I wouldn't be relying on a law book as any guarantee of my safety in that situation.
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Who was talking about people behaving "rationally" in situations like this? Or considering the legal ramifications of what they do? I was talking about the law. And in law Pistorius' claim of "self defence" fails and fails hard; what he may have irrationally believed is utterly irrelevant to the fact his claim of "self defence" fails. It appears we are talking past each other you are apparently think it is possible that Pistorius may have genuinely thought his life was in danger and that he was acting in self defence. Yes he may actually have thought so but it makes no difference to the fact his claim of "self defence" fails totally under law. Especially since even if you accept Pistorius' story there is no evidence whatsoever that the "intruder" acted as an immediate threat to Pistorius. There are consequences to people behaving stupidly and irrationally in circumstances like Pistorius' version of events.
Of course in law you are right but I thought you were talking about subjective fears and what people might irrationally think is the case under given circumstances. In which case it is perfectly obvious that an intruder could fire through a closed door at someone he thought was a threat to his life and think perfectly sincerely he is acting in self defence. Of course any decent law court would throw out such an idiotic defence even if the intruder was in fact utterly sincere about it.
So would you fire through a closed door at someone you thought was armed even though you knew no such thing and the person had In fact done nothing indicating that he was a threat to your life and limb? You would instead utterly cave into irrational fears and fantasy and fire away? I hope you never have a gun if that is the case.
Of course nothing is guaranteed in life and frankly firing through a closed door would not guarantee your safety. After all if the person does in fact have a gun and hasn't used it yet firing through a closed door would almost certainly cause them to fire back. And since the door is closed you have a very high chance of missing entirely and thus you have likely increased the danger to yourself, in a very stupid manner. Why because firing at someone through a closed door or wall is simply stupid.
I could of course give a very long list of cases in which people have sincerely believed their lives were at risk and killed someone in "self defence"; only the utter stupidity and irrationality of their actions is obviously apparent. And there are consequences for being an idiot.
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Hard Cheese
Critical Thinker
Of course it fails under the law. But you can claim "self defence" not only in an attempt to escape a charge of murder, but also in the hope of reducing the sentence you receive. Pistorius is guilty of murder, but that doesn't mean his belief his life was at risk holds no merit and his sentence not adjusted accordingly.
The fact that they're in my bathroom in the middle of the night indicates they are a threat to life and limb. In a country where gun violence and crime are commonplace, it's hard to imagine they're there to pay you a social visit.
I've never been in such a situation, so I have no idea how I would react. If it came to the crunch, and if I feared for my family or myself, maybe I would. Can you guarantee me that you wouldn't?
I hope not either, I certainly don't want one. Plenty of people do stupid, irrational things with guns, and I'm not sanctimonious enough to claim that somehow I'm immune to doing them either.
Of course such a claim can work to mitigate the sentence even if it is inherently very dubious and in this case failed to prevent him from being found guilty of murder and being sentenced has a murderer. But then all sorts of factors are taken into account when sentencing people. In this case the "self defence" argument was being used in an attempt to prevent him from being found guilty of murder and it failed.
This is of course fantasy logic. The sort of logic that any Court with any sense would utterly reject from someone claiming self defence. To repeat you don't know that the person was in fact armed and the "intruder" has made absolutely no threatening remarks etc., against you. That does not constitute an immediate threat to life and limb or much of a threat to life and limb period. Thieves are generally only interested in stealing your stuff; getting into a fracas is generally not what they are interested in. "Self defence" requires the person actually being a threat to your life and limb fantasizing such a threat isn't enough.
So what. That does not excuse fantasy taking over and behaving like an idiot. And what's with the crap about " a social visit"? Whoever implied that it was.
I can't guarantee anything and what I would do in such a situation is irrelevant. However if I did something so stupid I would hope I wouldn't try to evade the consequences of my stupidity.
We seem to be in agreement that Oscar did something stupid and irrational with a gun and that his "self defence" argument is legally pretty weak. I wonder who here has sanctimoniously claimed that they are immune to behaving like a raving idiot.
With a gun? If so, that's going to eliminate most posters from the question, I suspect.
Hard Cheese
Critical Thinker
Ultimately it failed. But initially it succeeded because he was found guilty of culpable homicide and got an extremely light sentence, which was only rectified after two appeals.
I love how you use the word "generally", as if I was going to rely on someone being at the top of the bell curve when I find them trespassing in my house at midnight. Even in my part of the world there are plenty of occurrences of home invasions where the occupant, often very elderly, has been badly beaten. I'm not sure how I'd distinguish between a "thief" and a "home invader". Perhaps they could get business cards printed up.
It may well do in South Africa, and possibly most other countries, I don't know. IMO the application of castle doctrine in US law is the correct approach. The right to protect myself and my family should trump all assumptions about your intent if you are illegally trespassing on my property.
Your view of Pistorius' behaviour is modelled on how you believe you would act and how one should should behave afterwards despite (I assume) you having never been in such a situation and your opinion that Pistorius does not actually 100% believe that his life was in danger. I think he's a liar (re his testimony about Reeva being in the bed) and a complete idiot (he had a thousand ways to avoid the situation he was in), but by the same token I don't discount that I could be completely wrong and he could be telling the truth.
Your statement "I hope you never have a gun in that case" (because I might do what Pistorius did) implies that the same isn't true for you. Maybe I am reading that wrong.