Cont: Origins of Covid (2)

(...) some people in the thread for some reason unknown to me insist on the argument that is poorly supported.
It probably isn't that they have arrived at their provisional conclusions after examining the evidence people have described, or anything.

Just as a for instance, you bring up GoF when GoF is not evidence; I have not seen anyone show evidence for the proverbial "There is green spraypainted graffiti. That guy has paint. It is spray paint. It is green." I've only seen "There is graffitti. There is evidence that that guy has paint!" Which is a reason to investigate. Not a conclusion, done and dusted.

We've gone over and over all of this. It honestly looks to me like what China was really embarrassed about (besides having a deadly virus spreading through the population at all - and the reluctance to face that exacerbated everything horribly) is/was the wet markets being allowed to exist because of their popularity and despite their health risks. Essentially China IS at fault but for this thing, not for that thing. If spillover is right, then lab leak proponents are letting them off the hook for their actual deadly actions (and vice versa of course). But one thing that definitely did happen was that Wuhan bleached the ◊◊◊◊ out of the wet market in question before anyone could look at it properly. You can say that was a higher-up directive so they could shift focus to it, and I can say it was a local directive trying to dodge responsibility before heads started to roll.

You can assert that the reason experts in the field, after they had the chance to look closely, say that Covid's tech specs aren't consistent with an engineered GoF project, is because someone got to them, or they're protecting their industry. I am not obliged to believe that.
 
Last edited:
There are 24 pages in this thread and the argument is close to watertight. But some people in the thread for some reason unknown to me insist on the argument Ythat is poorly supported. I do understand why a number of experts interviewed by the news media continue to play up and stick to the few arguments for a spillover. Accusing the scientists and China is an uncomfortable position, better to go with the easier explanation.

For example, one of @Planigale's links notes there was genetic material of the COVID-19 in the stall where the suspected intermediate species, the raccoon dogs, had been kept. But an earlier cited article noted the material was negligible and the pattern of samples from the whole market were consistent with the stall keeper being the source of the material, not the animals he kept.

There is evidence posted in this thread that gain of function research was going on at the lab. That one is particularly touchy because a lot of researchers are concerned a ban on such studies might impact their own research.

And so on.
Your argument is 'but gain of function'.

What is required is a precursor that could be engineered to make SARS-coV-2. There is no evidence that anyone had access to that in 2019.

Then they had to have the knowledge to engineer the non-existent precursor to create SARS-CoV-2. No one had that knowledge in 2019. The features of early SARS-CoV-2 shows features that make engineering of the furin cleavage site almost impossible to have been humanly designed.

Then they would have had to do the gains of function that no one knew how to do on a non-existent virus that no one has evidence was ever done. Then it had to escape. There may be evidence that there was a plan to do gain of function work in the US, there is no evidence it was ever done in Wuhan. Foreign scientists were working in Wuhan in late 2019 and saw nothing to suggest such work was done.

On the other hand one has increasing evidence from differing directions that support a natural spill over event. The subsequent finding of likely precursor viruses in nature, that could have given rise to SARS-CoV-2 with no gain of function. Separate epidemiological studies looking at different populations pointing to Wuhan wet market as being close to the epicentre centre. Then you have genetic studies on viruses isolated identifying very early SARS-CoV-2 at the wet market and present in the area one would have predicted as a possible site of transmission. Then you have the fact that appear to have been two separate transmission events which is what one might expect for a crossover event but not an engineered virus. No actual proof, but multiple sources all pointing in the same direction.

New research published in last 12 months favouring nosocomial transmission. I could find no actual science papers supporting a gain of function lab leak origin.
 
There are 24 pages in this thread and the argument is close to watertight. But some people in the thread for some reason unknown to me insist on the argument that is poorly supported. I do understand why a number of experts interviewed by the news media continue to play up and stick to the few arguments for a spillover. Accusing the scientists and China is an uncomfortable position, better to go with the easier explanation.

For example, one of @Planigale's links notes there was genetic material of the COVID-19 in the stall where the suspected intermediate species, the raccoon dogs, had been kept. But an earlier cited article noted the material was negligible and the pattern of samples from the whole market were consistent with the stall keeper being the source of the material, not the animals he kept.

There is evidence posted in this thread that gain of function research was going on at the lab. That one is particularly touchy because a lot of researchers are concerned a ban on such studies might impact their own research.

And so on.
The argument is so watertight that apparently none of it even needs to be spelled out, just alluded to.

SG, which lab did it leak from? The WIV or the Wuhan CDC lab? I believe you have implied both of them at some point in this thread and Part 1, and that was after initially pointing to the existence of the BSL-4 lab as being the likely culprit (Jeffrey Sachs claims the virus came from a lab at the University of North Carolina). In other words, the conclusion is determined and how to get there just changes from one day to the next.

Similarly, I would like to know if you claim the FCS was inserted into the virus through “no see ‘em” genetic manipulation, or if you still think it was the result of serial passaging the virus that you claim (without evidence) was taken from the miners of the Mojiang mine.

Also, do you still claim the virus emerged during the World Military Games in Wuhan and the entire city was locked down in October and kept secret by the Chinese government. This was another of your claims which was supposed to explain how the virus got to Italy so early on.

Yet the idea that the Chinese government could lock down the entire city without anyone outside knowing about it is preposterous. China is indeed a dictatorship, but it doesn’t have North Korean-like isolation from the rest of the world.

Presumably your argument would actually suggest the virus escaped the lab in September (a month earlier than the Wuhan games) which would explain why “the database” was taken down at that time. Though that too is shrouded in mystery as nobody seems to agree what this supposed database was or why other researchers would not have a copy of it somewhere.

This is on top of the fact that you are implying a conspiracy among all the world’s top virologists. That they are pumping out fraudulent papers and being waved through peer-review by complicit editors of the journals.

For me, this is pretty hard to swallow. It is like arguing that there is a cabal of interested architects and engineers who have conspired to cover up the controlled demolitions of the twin towers on 9/11.
 
I failed to respond to this. Influenza and corona viruses are entirely different. The influenza virus causes infuenza and can not be turned into a corona virus. The seasonal human coronaviruses are one of the causes of the common cold and are only distantly related to the coronaviruses that cause MERS, and SARS and Covid-19. The seasonal human cronaviruses cannot be converted into the viruses that cause MERS, SARS, nor covid-19. Although the latter three viruses are related they are not close enough to be converted into each other.

The fact that he cannot distinguish between influnza, the common cold coronaviruses and SARS-CoV 1 and 2 demonstrates the extent of his medical and scientific illiteracy. This is a bit like claiming cats can be turned into dogs.
It's worse that that - much worse. He also 'believes' that it "was altered and groomed into the bio-weapon SARS2-covid19 influenza in order to terrorize the world's population into an abnormal panic and in conjunction with the world's mass medias inveigled the population stampede to the safe and effective miracle remedy, the vaccine.". Where did he get this 'belief' from? His own fevered imagination is my guess. I bet he has zero evidence for this insane conspiracy theory - yet he pushes it anyway. Who would do something like that, and why?
 
The argument is so watertight that apparently none of it even needs to be spelled out, just alluded to...

It is like arguing that there is a cabal of interested architects and engineers who have conspired to cover up the controlled demolitions of the twin towers on 9/11.
Argument by assertion is what it is. Otherwise known as BS, or more accurately lying. Such 'argument' shouldn't be given the time of day.

Unfortunately we can't just ignore it though, because there is a small but potentially dangerous minority who want to believe it. People like him feed on that desire. The more like-minded people he can get to 'believe' his BS, the more it pumps up his ego (and theirs). Before you know it half the population is under his spell - and then it's very dangerous indeed.
 
A recent review of the issue with a literature review is here for those who want to identify primary sources. Although Skeptic Ginger thinks this is a settled the evidence continues to accrue.

 
“I Believe It”: Bhattacharya Pushes Lab Leak Conspiracy At Contentious NIH Town Hall As Staffers Walk Out (Important Context, May 20, 2025)
“It’s possible that the pandemic was caused by research conducted by human beings, and it is also possible that the NIH partly sponsored that research,” Bhattacharya said, prompting dozens of staffers to walk out of the auditorium. The walkouts were met with applause that forced the director to pause his speech.
With short video clip of the walkout.
 
Documentary:
‘Blame’ review: Three Covid-19 scientists fall victim to truth-twisting narratives (ScreenDaily, April 4, 2025)
Verified facts rarely impede the spread of a fanciful conspiracy myth. In Blame, Swiss director Christian Frei explores the falsehoods that have grown up around the origins of the Covid-19 virus. The focus on three key scientists helps draw the viewer into complex issues around misinformation, geopolitics and the deliberate undermining of trust in empirical evidence. This level-headed, fastidiously assembled and fascinating documentary should find a welcome from festivals, documentary channels and specialist distributors.

Blame, a documentary film: The defense of science and scientists against the Wuhan-Lab leak conspiracy (WSWS.org, June 6, 2025)
Donald Trump weaponized the theory five years earlier at the outset of the pandemic, but it has since gained bipartisan traction, with Democrats under Joe Biden aiding its spread. This allegation fuels anti-Chinese sentiment and lays the groundwork for war, as proven by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth’s warning at the Shangri-La Dialogue that China seeks to “become a hegemonic power in Asia.”
Christian Frei’s Blame, which premiered April 4, 2025, at the 56th Visions du Réel [Visions of Reality] film festival in Nyon, Switzerland, arrives as a vital rebuttal. The documentary confronts these weaponized conspiracies head-on—exposing their devastating consequences: the defunding of scientific research, mass layoffs and the public vilification of scientists. Blame is both a defense of science and a searing indictment of the political assault on public health.
Frei tackles the lab-leak narrative with precision, emotional depth and a carefully constructed counter-narrative. At its core are three scientists—Linfa Wang, Zhengli Shi, and Peter Daszak—whose decades-long collaboration in virus discovery and pandemic prevention becomes the target of political scapegoating and geopolitical maneuvering.
 
There is a podcast called If Books Could Kill. They look into the lab leak claims pointing out how relatively weak lab leak claims generally are. If you examine the relatively more reasonable lab leak claims you will find that the evidence doesn't stack up for it. It pretty much leaves a very crazy and Byzantine theory or you end up with the wet market origin being the most likely.

One thing that didn't really come up before was discussion of the infamous "cables" which in one journalist's rendering (through an anonymous source) sounded like the WIV was some nightmarishly shoddy place in terms of safety. However, the hosts point out that the full cables, without the spin, are far more mild, in fact praise the WIV and most of the concern is that it is not as productive as it could be.

Anyway, you might like it, although one of the hosts has a voice for silent movies...

 
United states Air Force USAF June 2010... Report on Genetically Engineered Pathogens "gain of functions" required to create safer binary pathogenic bio-weapons that can be activated remotely upon command with hidden vectors, supplying plausible deniability to the perpetrators.
https://www.gospanews.net/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/USAF_2010.pdf
If an undergraduate presented this report I would give it a C. Mostly science fiction, he is obsessed with 2035 'Stealth viruses could become a potential bioweapon in the year 2035', he over relies on secondary sources. An example is his reference to mouse pox "if the same modified virus was added to smallpox, it could present the same lethality for humans", you don't just add a virus to another virus, the issue was that they introduced a gene for Il 4 into mouse pox that increased its lethality for mice. The issue was would the same gene introduced to smallpox do the same thing in human infections.

In any case none of this is relevant to SARS-CoV-2. It may be worth a thread on biowarfare, but this poor quality paper contributes nothing to the topic of this thread.
 
WHO report on origins of COVID

To conclude, while a zoonotic origin with spillover from animals to humans is currently considered the best supported hypothesis by the available scientific data, until requests for further information are met or more scientific data becomes available, the origins of SARS-CoV-2 and how it entered the human population will remain inconclusive.
 
I failed to respond to this. Influenza and corona viruses are entirely different. The influenza virus causes infuenza and can not be turned into a corona virus. The seasonal human coronaviruses are one of the causes of the common cold and are only distantly related to the coronaviruses that cause MERS, and SARS and Covid-19. The seasonal human cronaviruses cannot be converted into the viruses that cause MERS, SARS, nor covid-19. Although the latter three viruses are related they are not close enough to be converted into each other.

The fact that he cannot distinguish between influnza, the common cold coronaviruses and SARS-CoV 1 and 2 demonstrates the extent of his medical and scientific illiteracy. This is a bit like claiming cats can be turned into dogs.
Doctor David E Martin believes nature's natural zoonotic function can be weaponized and in the case of Covid-19 demonstrates through patents and timelines exactly who, how and why the devolution of the annual winter influenza, the corona virus, was altered and groomed into the bio-weapon SARS2-covid19 influenza in order to terrorize the world's population into an abnormal panic and in conjunction with the world's mass medias inveigled the population stampede to the safe and effective miracle remedy, the vaccine.
May 2008
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2289981/
[excerpt] Zoonoses Likely to Be Used in Bioterrorism [/excerpt]

Yes! Patents obtained on animal coronaviruses altered by Gain of Function manipulations.Dr. Martin



This short Video the research of david E Martim indicates ,with evidence, the Chinese and American scientists were Siamese twins in the quest for corona virus Gain of Function research and development of SARS -Covid2.




Complete with facts, dates, patent numbers and contract trail timelines.


If you are a genuine truth-seeker
this link provides an excellent primer
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7150198/#b0010
Doctor David E Martin speaks for himself and provides examples of his Bio-warfare credentials.
https://internationalskeptics.com/forums/index.php?threads/origins-of-covid-2.365418/
His statements are cogent and unambiguous and he backs up his statements in his other videos and
documents, complete with times lines.
patent numbers and dates filed and granted.
 
Doctor David E Martin speaks for himself and provides examples of his Bio-warfare credentials.
https://internationalskeptics.com/forums/index.php?threads/origins-of-covid-2.365418/
His statements are cogent and unambiguous and he backs up his statements in his other videos and
documents, complete with times lines.
patent numbers and dates filed and granted.
He has no technical competence in science. He suggests things that are scientifically impossible. Just because someone is convincing, suggests that there are facts to back him up, doesn't mean they are not a confidence trickster out to swindle you. He can quote patents all he likes, but a patent doesn't mean something is possible let alone that it was done.
 
FWIW, Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz has a Substack post in which he goes through his opinion of what likely caused the outbreak of Covid-19.

He caveats everything he says by downplaying his own credentials (unlike many of the lab-leak proponents who, if they have any credentials at all, stretch them beyond breaking point), before looking at three possible scenarios and giving his own off-the-cuff probabilities for the likelihood:

Theory 1: China Created COVID-19
My Rating For Possibility: <1/100

He gives this the lowest possibility and specifically talks about the claims made by the Trump administration:

the argument put forward that the virus was created in a lab is astonishingly weak. The White House website lays out these points:

  1. The virus possesses a biological characteristic that is not found in nature.
  2. Data shows that all COVID-19 cases stem from a single introduction into humans. This runs contrary to previous pandemics where there were multiple spillover events.
  3. Wuhan is home to China’s foremost SARS research lab, which has a history of conducting gain-of-function research (gene altering and organism supercharging) at inadequate biosafety levels.
  4. Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) researchers were sick with COVID-like symptoms in the fall of 2019, months before COVID-19 was discovered at the wet market.
  5. By nearly all measures of science, if there was evidence of a natural origin it would have already surfaced. But it hasn’t.

His responses to each one:

1. "The first of these claims is straightforwardly false. The claim is that the furin cleavage site of the COVID-19 virus - an element of SARS-CoV-2 that is critical to its success in infecting people - is not found in nature, and therefore the virus cannot have evolved naturally.

It is true that furin cleavage sites are rare in the family of viruses that SARS-CoV-2 comes from. In particular, in bat coronaviruses that mostly do not infect human cells that are related to SARS-CoV-2 directly, there are no other examples with this specific feature around.

But there are many other coronaviruses that have evolved furin cleavage sites. For example, two of the human coronaviruses that circulate every year causing colds have precisely this feature. Here’s a paper from 2015 describing the potential problems that the furin cleavage site of HCoV-OC43 could have for human neurological cells.

While it’s true that this feature is somewhat unusual, that’s entirely expected. If furin cleavage sites evolved all of the time, we’d be inundated with pandemics. Instead, most bat viruses just infect bats, and never evolve features that could cause them to be dangerous for humans."

2. "The second point from the White House propaganda site is also untrue. The best current evidence indicates that there were almost certainly two or even more introductions into humans at the onset of the pandemic. While this sort of genetic epidemiology is complex, the data shows that there were two distinct lineages of SARS-CoV-2 spreading in November and December 2019, which could only happen if there was more than one introduction into the population at that time."

3. "Point three is entirely speculative. We’ll cover the “biosafety” concerns more in the next section, but even without looking too deeply into the evidence you can’t infer much from this sort of statement."

4. "Point four is astonishingly misleading. COVID-like symptoms encompass almost the entire spectrum of human illness, and therefore it is entirely meaningless to say that there were a few people sick in Wuhan in August-October 2019. It’s a large lab, of course people were sick. The average human adult is estimated to have 3-4 symptomatic colds per year, most of which happen in the colder months. Moreover, there is no evidence whatsoever of a COVID-19 outbreak in the WIV in 2019. "

5. "The final point is simply a matter of opinion. Most of the experienced virologists I know believe that SARS-CoV-2 came from a zoonotic outbreak. The White House prefers to trust the small minority of experts who think differently. That’s not evidence, and so we cannot really appraise it as such. We’ve now had five years for proponents of the lab leak conspiracy to find literally any evidence that the virus was designed. It should be trivially easy to prove. "

Theory 2: A Big Accident
My Rating For Possibility: 5/100

Theory 3: Zoonosis
My Rating For Possibility: 95/100
 
FWIW, Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz has a Substack post in which he goes through his opinion of what likely caused the outbreak of Covid-19.

He caveats everything he says by downplaying his own credentials (unlike many of the lab-leak proponents who, if they have any credentials at all, stretch them beyond breaking point), before looking at three possible scenarios and giving his own off-the-cuff probabilities for the likelihood:

Theory 1: China Created COVID-19
My Rating For Possibility: <1/100

He gives this the lowest possibility and specifically talks about the claims made by the Trump administration:



His responses to each one:

1. "The first of these claims is straightforwardly false. The claim is that the furin cleavage site of the COVID-19 virus - an element of SARS-CoV-2 that is critical to its success in infecting people - is not found in nature, and therefore the virus cannot have evolved naturally.

It is true that furin cleavage sites are rare in the family of viruses that SARS-CoV-2 comes from. In particular, in bat coronaviruses that mostly do not infect human cells that are related to SARS-CoV-2 directly, there are no other examples with this specific feature around.

But there are many other coronaviruses that have evolved furin cleavage sites. For example, two of the human coronaviruses that circulate every year causing colds have precisely this feature. Here’s a paper from 2015 describing the potential problems that the furin cleavage site of HCoV-OC43 could have for human neurological cells.

While it’s true that this feature is somewhat unusual, that’s entirely expected. If furin cleavage sites evolved all of the time, we’d be inundated with pandemics. Instead, most bat viruses just infect bats, and never evolve features that could cause them to be dangerous for humans."

2. "The second point from the White House propaganda site is also untrue. The best current evidence indicates that there were almost certainly two or even more introductions into humans at the onset of the pandemic. While this sort of genetic epidemiology is complex, the data shows that there were two distinct lineages of SARS-CoV-2 spreading in November and December 2019, which could only happen if there was more than one introduction into the population at that time."

3. "Point three is entirely speculative. We’ll cover the “biosafety” concerns more in the next section, but even without looking too deeply into the evidence you can’t infer much from this sort of statement."

4. "Point four is astonishingly misleading. COVID-like symptoms encompass almost the entire spectrum of human illness, and therefore it is entirely meaningless to say that there were a few people sick in Wuhan in August-October 2019. It’s a large lab, of course people were sick. The average human adult is estimated to have 3-4 symptomatic colds per year, most of which happen in the colder months. Moreover, there is no evidence whatsoever of a COVID-19 outbreak in the WIV in 2019. "

5. "The final point is simply a matter of opinion. Most of the experienced virologists I know believe that SARS-CoV-2 came from a zoonotic outbreak. The White House prefers to trust the small minority of experts who think differently. That’s not evidence, and so we cannot really appraise it as such. We’ve now had five years for proponents of the lab leak conspiracy to find literally any evidence that the virus was designed. It should be trivially easy to prove. "

Theory 2: A Big Accident
My Rating For Possibility: 5/100

Theory 3: Zoonosis
My Rating For Possibility: 95/100
Thank you for this. A very compelling set of facts.
 
Doctor David E Martin speaks for himself and provides examples of his Bio-warfare credentials.
https://internationalskeptics.com/forums/index.php?threads/origins-of-covid-2.365418/
His statements are cogent and unambiguous and he backs up his statements in his other videos and
documents, complete with times lines.
patent numbers and dates filed and granted.

He has no technical competence in science. He suggests things that are scientifically impossible. Just because someone is convincing, suggests that there are facts to back him up, doesn't mean they are not a confidence trickster out to swindle you. He can quote patents all he likes, but a patent doesn't mean something is possible let alone that it was done.
The link in my post above is corrupted and links directly to the thread OP pt.2.
The correct link to doctor Martin's Bio and his remarks is posted in this link.
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1CGhC67K1R/
Without the video and audio of Doctor Martin's accusations your comments on
his veracity and competence are likewise null and void.
Instead of vague innuendos and ad hominids, pick out a couple of Doctor Martin's
accusations and address each point by point in your with your critique.
ETA the link in this post functions normally at posing time.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom