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"Oklahoma Supreme Court orders removal of Ten Commandments"

Cl1mh4224rd

Philosopher
Cl1mh4224rd
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Dec 27, 2006
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Oklahoma Supreme Court orders removal of Ten Commandments

After the Supreme Court's week of high-profile decisions, Oklahoma's high court made a stir of its own in a ruling that had a group of self-proclaimed Satanists and an ordained Baptist minister celebrating.

The Oklahoma Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that the state must remove a 6-foot tall granite monument of the Ten Commandments from its capitol because it violates the state's constitutional ban against the use of public funds or property to benefit a religion.
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Some legislators are not giving up without a fight, though...

Some state legislators blasted the ruling and announced they plan to try to repeal the section of the state's constitution the court cited in its decision. Oklahoma's amendment process means a statewide vote may ultimately decide the matter.
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Heh.
 
The country is moving ahead on all of these social issues and it s awesome. However I wonder if the conservative judges are just giving us shiny prizes while their political buddies continue to trash stack the economic deck.
 
So I looked up the relevant part of the state constitution.

article II, Section V of the state constitution specifies that “no public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such​

Apparently, the folks willing to gut the state constitution don't understand what a boon that will be to the Satanists who have built a statue and were trying to get it placed next the the Ten Commandments monument?

Speaking of which, the statue is finished and the group that sponsored it is looking for a new site
http://kfor.com/2015/07/02/satanic-...baphomet-statue-after-oklahoma-courts-ruling/
 
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Fundies: "Them Satanists is tryin' to put up a statue next to our Ten Commandments!"

Court: "Under your Constitution, the Ten Commandments isn't even supposed to be there. It has to come down."

Fundies: "Help! We're being oppressed!"
 
My first question would be, which Ten Commandments? The ten usually listed aren't the 'real' ones. After Moses smashed the tablets containing the original ten, when he went back up the mountain to get a replacement God apparently exercised His author's right to rewrite his work and came up with a new set of ten that differed from the previous set.
 
Corsair 115 said:
My first question would be, which Ten Commandments?
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The answer to your question can be found be looking at the actual monument that was already erected.

Does it really make a difference which version was used in this case?
 
Ladewig said:
The answer to your question can be found be looking at the actual monument that was already erected.

Does it really make a difference which version was used in this case?
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Not really, but it would be funnier if it was the set that included not boiling a goat in its mother's milk.
 
COLONEL said:
Pretty soon they will have to remove the crosses out of Arlington National Cemetery after all that is Govt. property
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Thankfully in the narrow case of crosses and star of David grave markers, Arlington is in VA, and not in OK.
 
BazBear said:
Thankfully in the narrow case of crosses and star of David grave markers, Arlington is in VA, and not in OK.
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I wrote that to be smart I think they carry this politically correct crap to far. Now we are banning the confederate flag and even TV shows that have the CSA flag in it. If these things were put up back in a time that they were excepted, then they should be left alone as part of history. It seems nobody wants any thing that might remind them of what helped to form this country.
 
COLONEL, we've got another thread nearby that discusses when and why the Confederate battle flag started to be flown on the grounds of state capitol buildings in many states in the South.

As far as Oklahoma is concerned, good on their Supreme Court!
 
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COLONEL said:
I wrote that to be smart I think they carry this politically correct crap to far. Now we are banning the confederate flag and even TV shows that have the CSA flag in it. If these things were put up back in a time that they were excepted, then they should be left alone as part of history. It seems nobody wants any thing that might remind them of what helped to form this country.
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What does the Confederate flag have to do with whether or not the Ten Commandments can appear on state property in Oklahoma?

I personally cannot see how the Ten Commandments "helped to form this country." And even if they did, the state constitution specifically forbids their display on state grounds. Surely enforcing state law cannot be described as politically correct crap.
 
Ladewig said:
Does it really make a difference which version was used in this case?
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Not really. But it is interesting to think of the praise some folks heap upon the first set of ten. Considering that God elected to rewrite them when He had the chance, it suggests the original ten weren't the right ten He wanted.
 
Corsair 115 said:
Not really. But it is interesting to think of the praise some folks heap upon the first set of ten. Considering that God elected to rewrite them when He had the chance, it suggests the original ten weren't the right ten He wanted.
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And, there I was thinking he just did not have a very good memory. :(
 
COLONEL said:
I wrote that to be smart I think they carry this politically correct crap to far. Now we are banning the confederate flag and even TV shows that have the CSA flag in it. If these things were put up back in a time that they were excepted, then they should be left alone as part of history. It seems nobody wants any thing that might remind them of what helped to form this country.
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What TV shows were banned?

How did what help form this country?
 
Travis said:
What TV shows were banned?
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He's evidently a "Dukes of Hazard" fan. I'm think one of them is a Daisy myself. ;) But it's wrong to say the show was "banned", the network pulled it voluntarily.
How did what help form this country?
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The unCivil War created "the" United States from the mishmash that was "these" United States.
 
COLONEL said:
I wrote that to be smart I think they carry this politically correct crap to far. Now we are banning the confederate flag and even TV shows that have the CSA flag in it. If these things were put up back in a time that they were excepted, then they should be left alone as part of history. It seems nobody wants any thing that might remind them of what helped to form this country.
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Slavery , civil war and 20th century segregation helped form the country , correct. I am all for reminding the US citizen that the country was formed over stealing the freedom of others, and shedding their blood and tears. But that certainly can take other form on *government* property. For government property put it in a museum as symbol of those segregationist which fought to keep slavery alive, and its revival on the second half of the 20th as symbol for segregation.

The flag is not banned by the way,you can display it proudly on your truck ( see picture http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...d-obsession-with-the-confederate-flag/261236/ - as long as it is well fixed and has no risk of being dangerous for passerby) and you can display it on your own private property (http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...150-confederate-flags-flying-on-his-property/ as long as it respect local rules for flagpole).

And also voluntary pulling items from broadcast or from sales is not censorship , as it is not done by the government but voluntary by private entities which calculated they have more to lose by loss of sales when keeping those, than the eventual lost sales if they drop it. In fact dropping it might even give them some slight positive advertizing. But anyway none of this is censorship. It will be censorship when the government comes to your private home and ask you to remove that specific flag.
 
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COLONEL said:
Pretty soon they will have to remove the crosses out of Arlington National Cemetery after all that is Govt. property
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Nobody is going to demand the crosses be removed from Arlington; each person interred there has his choice from this approved list (you'll note there's one for "atheist" as well as "humanist"). Since the cross is not, as a religious symbol, one preferred, endorsed, or imposed by the US Government to the exclusion of any others, there's no question of conflict. Quite different from the situation in OK...
 
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turingtest said:
Nobody is going to demand the crosses be removed from Arlington; each person interred there has his choice from this approved list (you'll note there's one for "atheist" as well as "humanist"). Since the cross is not, as a religious symbol, one preferred, endorsed, or imposed by the US Government to the exclusion of any others, there's no question of conflict. Quite different from the situation in OK...
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There is even one for sandhill crane practically as unreligious unless I missed a sandhill crane cult symbol in google...

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2013/07/coming_to_va_cemetery_headston.html
 
Put it on private land across the street. That's what the city I grew up in did for a few years with their city hall Nativity scene before the Supreme Court allowed it again as long as Santas were there too for general festivity.

This lead to a fixed number of display slots for any religions that applied, first come, first served.

You know, the slots my fellow atheists try to monopolize to lock out a Nativity while claiming with a straight face they are not warring against Christianity.
 
COLONEL said:
Pretty soon they will have to remove the crosses out of Arlington National Cemetery after all that is Govt. property
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Well, if you care about the actual facts, the religious symbols on graves are usually recognized as reflecting the beliefs of each deceased, and not to represent a government-sponsored belief that is meant in some more general, broad fashion. The former is permitted by the Constitution and the courts, whereas the latter is not. The analysis that the grave symbol only applies to each individual under it is supported by the fact that some graves in Arlington have Jewish Stars of David on them, some have Islamic crescents, and some have A's for atheists. It would, of course, be illegal for the government to place a cross on everyone's grave independent of the decreased religion or wishes.

To reiterate: a giant cross (or Star of David or Ten Commandments) on government property that is clearly meant as a government approval of a particular religious belief is not Constitutional. But this has never been interpreted to mean that religious symbols that apply to an individual are illegal on government property. So be assured that if you wish to wear a cross around your neck next time you visit the Lincoln Memorial, no one will arrest you for it. You are safe.
 
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COLONEL said:
I wrote that to be smart
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Well that didn't work out.
COLONEL said:
I think they carry this politically correct crap to far.
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Upholding the US and Oklahoma constitutions is political correctness?

COLONEL said:
Now we are banning the confederate flag and even TV shows that have the CSA flag in it.
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Who banned the flag? Removing a symbol of hatred from government property is not banning it.

COLONEL said:
If these things were put up back in a time that they were excepted, then they should be left alone as part of history.
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We should have left up all those "Colored Water Fountain" and "Whites Only" signs.

COLONEL said:
It seems nobody wants any thing that might remind them of what helped to form this country.
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Not quite. Nobody wants symbols of hatred on government property.
 
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Beerina said:
Put it on private land across the street. That's what the city I grew up in did for a few years with their city hall Nativity scene before the Supreme Court allowed it again as long as Santas were there too for general festivity.

This lead to a fixed number of display slots for any religions that applied, first come, first served.

You know, the slots my fellow atheists try to monopolize to lock out a Nativity while claiming with a straight face they are not warring against Christianity.
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Ah,another Libertarian Athiest who spends half his time kissing the butt of the religious right because of politics.
 
COLONEL said:
I wrote that to be smart I think they carry this politically correct crap to far. Now we are banning the confederate flag and even TV shows that have the CSA flag in it. If these things were put up back in a time that they were excepted, then they should be left alone as part of history. It seems nobody wants any thing that might remind them of what helped to form this country.
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I don't know where you get your information from, but there has been no banning of any flag. You are still quite free to hoist one up your private flagpole at your discretion.

Yeah, there's been some movement towards removing them from government property by the government bodies which are in charge of those properties. There have also been private companies which have decided to cease displaying and/or selling the symbol. In all cases, the parties making those decisions are the parties to which those decisions belong.

There have been no bans or even any suggestions of a ban. The first amendment actually sort of prevents that from ever happening with regard to any sort of symbol, which a flag is by definition.

That doesn't mean that some people won't look at you askance if you display it, of course. The Constitution in no way protects you from being disliked.
 
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Right wing sites continue to make their aficionados look like fools by convincing them of misinformation that to most of us is just obviously a lie motivated by a conservative mind set.

Originally Posted by COLONEL
Now we are banning the confederate flag and even TV shows that have the CSA flag in it.
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While the TV Land cable channel has pulled The Dukes of Hazzard from their lineup, the show itself has not been “banned from television.”
Read more at http://m.snopes.com/2015/07/01/tv-land-dukes-hazzard/#3ffAH8HcAX3E6BUx.99
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I heard this one the other day.

Claim: President Obama has signed an executive order banning the possession and sale of Confederate flags.

Under federal law, the punishment carries a mandatory minimum sentence of ten years. “In light of recent events, I’m inclined to believe a ten-year sentence is far too lenient,” Al Sharpton told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer today. Blitzer, who agreed with Sharpton, said many in Washington have echoed similar sentiment.
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Simply put, there’s no truth to the claim that President Obama has outlawed the sale or ownership of Confederate flags or other items bearing an image of such. This is nothing more than a fake news item: the President did not issue any such executive order, nor did he amend the U.S. Code (by any means) to expand the definition of hate crimes to include possession of Confederate flags. And neither Wolf Blitzer nor Al Sharpton commented upon such an imaginary happenstance.
Read more at http://m.snopes.com/obama-bans-confederate-flag/#DkW43HJ7DboSGFfD.99
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I generally don't even bother calling people out on this kind of nonsense anymore. My experience is that they don't really want to know the truth, so it's pointless to attempt to educate them. It seems to me that many seem to enjoy wallowing in their scorn for imaginary torts. It's a way of life.
 
"The real reason that we can't have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse: You cannot post 'Thou shalt not steal,' 'Thou shalt not commit adultery,' and 'Thou shalt not lie' in a building full of lawyers, judges, and politicians. It creates a hostile work environment." – George Carlin
 
Bogative said:
"The real reason that we can't have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse: You cannot post 'Thou shalt not steal,' 'Thou shalt not commit adultery,' and 'Thou shalt not lie' in a building full of lawyers, judges, and politicians. It creates a hostile work environment." – George Carlin
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And George, of course, nailed it. :dio:
 
Anyone else find it super ironic that tablets of the Ten Commandments have become worshiped idols?
 
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