No Skeptics on the Jury, Please

Myriad

The Clarity Is Devastating
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I had an interesting conversation recently with a judge, a plaintiff's lawyer, and some lawyers for the defense regarding the nature of skepticism and the import of being an avowed skeptic on ones ability to render an impartial decision in a civil court case. It took place in a courtroom here in Massachusetts. This of course was a voir dire of myself as a prospective juror in said civil case. Judges can dismiss potential jurors based on potential reasons for bias (e.g. if the person is an acquaintance of either party, an employee, has been the victim of a similar mishap, has read about the case in the news, etc.) and either side can also object to jurors with or without cause, including based on strategy, who they think will be sympathetic to their side. The case was a personal injury liability claim by a customer against a regional retail business. (Details are omitted to protect everything from everything else.)

I had happened to mention on the juror questionnaire that I had over 21,000 posts on a skeptics' forum online. I might not have been required to mention this, because I do not personally believe it has any adverse effect whatsoever on my ability to assess the evidence offered in a trial and render an impartial judgment (and that's what the question on the questionnaire asked). Quite the contrary, in fact. But I wasn't certain the parties involved would agree with that, and there was scary language on the questionnaire importuning the complete truth, and I'm no expert on jurisprudence, so I mentioned it anyway. And it appears that was the right thing to do, because all the parties present appeared to take great interest in it.

Some of the more interesting questions, and my answers: Did being a (presumably self-described) skeptic mean I would need "more" evidence to believe the plaintiff's case? Well, yes, that's practically the definition of skeptic. However, I carefully explained, that would apply to both sides equally, and also it's not really about the amount of evidence, but being careful to evaluate its quality, such as whether it might be based on appeals to emotion, logical fallacies, or bad statistics. Did my online activities mean I would research the case on the Internet? It means I would want to do that, as it's my normal habit when trying to figure something out, but I understand perfectly that it would be against the rules in this particular instance. Would I think more favorably of a witness who works in the same retail chain as my wife used to? I presume, having a very favorable impression of that group, that I would be a bit biased in their favor, because research clearly shows that everyone is biased in such ways, even when they claim otherwise or are unaware of it. It's important to acknowledge such biases and compensate for them as needed rather than offhandedly deny them. Do the topics of discussion on the skeptics' forum include court cases? Yes!

Amazingly, despite my eloquent case for my superlative qualifications as the most rational and impartial of jurors, and complete willingness to serve, I was dismissed from the panel. That decision takes place behind closed doors, so I don't know which party dismissed me on what basis. I have my suspicions, naturally.

Some cynics might read into the above that I actually didn't want to be on a jury at that time, which I acknowledge would have been a substantial but manageable inconvenience. But given that all my answers were completely truthful, without exaggeration or omission, what I wanted could hardly have figured into it.

Does anyone else have experiences where self representing as a skeptic, or behaving in a skeptical manner, has been an issue in jury service or other court proceedings?
 
I've never announced "I'm a skeptic", but:

I once told a judge that I wouldn't necessarily believe eyewitness testimony because human memory is constructed. I did not get on that jury, but I think that was probably just a numbers thing, they started with a few dozen potential jurors, and I was never anywhere near getting in the jury when they settled on the 12.

The Judge said I'd have to agree to the jury instructions before I saw them. I said I could not do that but would let him know if I there were any I couldn't follow when he gave them. I did get on that jury.

Also, I'm not sure how being a poster on a skeptics' forum is relevant or what question would have prompted you to say that you were.
 
This was during COVID so the questioning was online. After a lot of specifics one final section asked the general 'is there anything else which might prevent you from being impartial ...'. I answered something to the effect of : "The occupations of a couple of family members gives me a slight and irrational pro-law enforcement bias in my general thinking. Though I am aware of that bias and would try to correct for it, knowing how the human mind works I can not honestly say I am positive it would not affect my judgement to a small degree. "

And that was that. No jury duty for me.
 
I think the average person out there will lump us sceptics in with, say, Climate Change, Holocaust, or Vaccine Deniers. I've tried explaining the difference, but without much success, I fear.
 
IDK, you can't really say for sure if that's why you weren't selected. When I lived in the SF Bay Area I got a summons once a year. 75% of the time, I called the day before and they didn't need me to show up. The four times I had to actually show up, 3 times I never got close to the being on the jury. Not because anything I said or did, just because they didn't get to me before they selected a jury. So, sure, maybe the defense didn't like your answer or maybe they never even read your answers.

ETA, and Ron's not wrong, I suspect a lot of folks do think skeptic basically means denier or cynic.
 
I think the average person out there will lump us sceptics in with, say, Climate Change, Holocaust, or Vaccine Deniers. I've tried explaining the difference, but without much success, I fear.
This has been my experience, too. I once testified at a bench trial, saying I was "skeptical" of claims made by the adversary, and under cross, counsel said I claimed to be "cynical". After correcting him a couple times, he had the stenographer read back the relevant passage, and rather than acknowledge he was wrong, he essentially said they were equivalent statements. The attorney on my side later advised me to say I was "troubled" with things like that (yes, he was not supposed to coach me like that). Apparently "skeptic" has a very negative connotation to many out there.
 
I think the average person out there will lump us sceptics in with, say, Climate Change, Holocaust, or Vaccine Deniers. I've tried explaining the difference, but without much success, I fear.
This. Myriad gave them far too much information for them to be able to process in one hit. He would have just sounded weird or as if he was trying to get out of jury duty by being pedantic.

It's a crying shame that skepticism is not known for what it really is.
 
I think the average person out there will lump us sceptics in with, say, Climate Change, Holocaust, or Vaccine Deniers. I've tried explaining the difference, but without much success, I fear.
A lot of people conflate skepticism with contrarianism. Especially actual contrarians. I think a great many CT believers also think of themselves as being skeptical of mainstream beliefs and such.

For those reasons I don't really think of myself as a "skeptic". I am a proponent of logic and objective evaluation of information; label that as you will.
 
I've also more or less stopped labelling myself as a skeptic. Mostly because of Julia Galef's advice to wear your identities lightly. That being said, I do think the stereotype of skeptics as grumpy old men is not totally without merit.

And its true, lots of believers in woo think of themselves as skeptics. CTers, alt history types, flat earthers, they all think they are skeptics.
 
I've also more or less stopped labelling myself as a skeptic. Mostly because of Julia Galef's advice to wear your identities lightly. That being said, I do think the stereotype of skeptics as grumpy old men is not totally without merit.

And its true, lots of believers in woo think of themselves as skeptics. CTers, alt history types, flat earthers, they all think they are skeptics.

It's like a reverse of the euphemism treadmill. The idiot crazies claim the labels of the logical and intelligent.
 
A lot of people conflate skepticism with contrarianism. Especially actual contrarians. I think a great many CT believers also think of themselves as being skeptical of mainstream beliefs and such.

For those reasons I don't really think of myself as a "skeptic". I am a proponent of logic and objective evaluation of information; label that as you will.
I try to avoid labels for similar reasons, internally I see myself as a practitioner of critical thinking, and perhaps a 'rationalist', but understand that those things can be red flags for woo believers.

In a court situation (witness) I mentioned that I was uncomfortable with swearing on a bible, because, as a non-religious person, it felt like lying.

The Judge said something along the lines of: "Oh that's not a problem, it comes up far more commonly than you might think." and then directed the (bailif?) to give me the 'affirmation' text instead.
 
In Australia, there is no voir dire. The lawyers do not get to ask the jurors questions. This would not have come up.
 
My understanding of U.K. law (and therefore that of some Commonwealth) is that you can conduct voir dire on a prospective juror, but only at the judge's discretion, and only for any of a small set of good causes. That is, there are no peremptory dismissals. Unless a juror is, say, the defendant's sister, I would think this generally results in fairer verdicts. The American system is so far up its own orificium curiæ that jury selection not only takes forever and is amazingly expensive, but undercuts the presumption of impartiality. You're permitted a jury of your peers, not of your friends.
 
The voir dire I've had to go under as a juror was pretty sensible. Not delving into the psyche much, just verifying that you weren't unduly biased. On my last service, they were primarily verifying that we were unfamiliar with the defendant, whose legal woes had made local headlines for months.
 
Voir dire is not used for jury selection in the UK. There are exceptional cases where a juror can be asked to 'stand by' by the prosecution for further investigation (e.g. to check they are not disqualified) or challenged for cause by either prosecution or defence. The judge also has discretionary power to reject a juror in some circumstances. This would generally only be for something such as the juror appearing to be illiterate, infirm, or unable to understand what is happening. Because jurors are not questioned it would be usually be impossible to challenge a juror for something that is not clearly observable during the empanelling process.
When I have described the US systems of voir dire to students they are usually incredulous that this is allowed.
 
Voir dire is not used for jury selection in the UK. There are exceptional cases where a juror can be asked to 'stand by' by the prosecution for further investigation (e.g. to check they are not disqualified) or challenged for cause by either prosecution or defence. The judge also has discretionary power to reject a juror in some circumstances. This would generally only be for something such as the juror appearing to be illiterate, infirm, or unable to understand what is happening. Because jurors are not questioned it would be usually be impossible to challenge a juror for something that is not clearly observable during the empanelling process.
When I have described the US systems of voir dire to students they are usually incredulous that this is allowed.
The voir dire I've had to go under as a juror was pretty sensible. Not delving into the psyche much, just verifying that you weren't unduly biased. On my last service, they were primarily verifying that we were unfamiliar with the defendant, whose legal woes had made local headlines for months.
My experience is similar to Thermal's. Questions like, have you had bad experience with cops, is your dad a cop, do you know anyone in the courtroom, etc. That seems reasonable to me.
 
In
I try to avoid labels for similar reasons, internally I see myself as a practitioner of critical thinking, and perhaps a 'rationalist', but understand that those things can be red flags for woo believers.

In a court situation (witness) I mentioned that I was uncomfortable with swearing on a bible, because, as a non-religious person, it felt like lying.

The Judge said something along the lines of: "Oh that's not a problem, it comes up far more commonly than you might think." and then directed the (bailif?) to give me the 'affirmation' text instead.
I didn't know the Bible swearing was still a thing. In my US state, for the formal swearing in, you are asked "Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you give..." etc. from some distance away. No Bibles or modified questions.
 
In

I didn't know the Bible swearing was still a thing. In my US state, for the formal swearing in, you are asked "Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you give..." etc. from some distance away. No Bibles or modified questions.
That may be true here, now, too...

My witness experience is from 1983.

:)
 
I had an interesting conversation recently with a judge, a plaintiff's lawyer, and some lawyers for the defense regarding the nature of skepticism and the import of being an avowed skeptic on ones ability to render an impartial decision in a civil court case. It took place in a courtroom here in Massachusetts. This of course was a voir dire of myself as a prospective juror in said civil case. Judges can dismiss potential jurors based on potential reasons for bias (e.g. if the person is an acquaintance of either party, an employee, has been the victim of a similar mishap, has read about the case in the news, etc.) and either side can also object to jurors with or without cause, including based on strategy, who they think will be sympathetic to their side. The case was a personal injury liability claim by a customer against a regional retail business. (Details are omitted to protect everything from everything else.)

I had happened to mention on the juror questionnaire that I had over 21,000 posts on a skeptics' forum online. I might not have been required to mention this, because I do not personally believe it has any adverse effect whatsoever on my ability to assess the evidence offered in a trial and render an impartial judgment (and that's what the question on the questionnaire asked). Quite the contrary, in fact. But I wasn't certain the parties involved would agree with that, and there was scary language on the questionnaire importuning the complete truth, and I'm no expert on jurisprudence, so I mentioned it anyway. And it appears that was the right thing to do, because all the parties present appeared to take great interest in it.

Some of the more interesting questions, and my answers: Did being a (presumably self-described) skeptic mean I would need "more" evidence to believe the plaintiff's case? Well, yes, that's practically the definition of skeptic. However, I carefully explained, that would apply to both sides equally, and also it's not really about the amount of evidence, but being careful to evaluate its quality, such as whether it might be based on appeals to emotion, logical fallacies, or bad statistics. Did my online activities mean I would research the case on the Internet? It means I would want to do that, as it's my normal habit when trying to figure something out, but I understand perfectly that it would be against the rules in this particular instance. Would I think more favorably of a witness who works in the same retail chain as my wife used to? I presume, having a very favorable impression of that group, that I would be a bit biased in their favor, because research clearly shows that everyone is biased in such ways, even when they claim otherwise or are unaware of it. It's important to acknowledge such biases and compensate for them as needed rather than offhandedly deny them. Do the topics of discussion on the skeptics' forum include court cases? Yes!

Amazingly, despite my eloquent case for my superlative qualifications as the most rational and impartial of jurors, and complete willingness to serve, I was dismissed from the panel. That decision takes place behind closed doors, so I don't know which party dismissed me on what basis. I have my suspicions, naturally.

Some cynics might read into the above that I actually didn't want to be on a jury at that time, which I acknowledge would have been a substantial but manageable inconvenience. But given that all my answers were completely truthful, without exaggeration or omission, what I wanted could hardly have figured into it.

Does anyone else have experiences where self representing as a skeptic, or behaving in a skeptical manner, has been an issue in jury service or other court proceedings?
I hear you. As I probably mentioned somewhere before, in the 90s I was Juror #1 on a murder and attempted murder case. I just got by with answering the basic questions in platitudes "Innocent before proven guilty is a pillar of the justice system" or just yes "I can view this impartially".

I wouldn't take it personally. Each side gets their peremptory strikes (ie, don't need a reason). If it's a high profile case they might take a look at your online presence. A self-described skeptic could spook each side.

I was a skeptic back then too, but kept it to myself. Just keep it pretty bland and general then you could be selected, if you want to be. If you don't, just say "The death penalty is under-utilized!".
 
In

I didn't know the Bible swearing was still a thing. In my US state, for the formal swearing in, you are asked "Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you give..." etc. from some distance away. No Bibles or modified questions.
Yes. When I did my jury duty (thirty years ago) I was asked whether I wanted to swear or affirm.
 
You and novaphile sound like you haven't been called for jury duty in decades. Is that normal in Oz? I get the tap every three years like clockwork.

ETA: aimed at @arthwollipot and @novaphile , still wrestling with forum posting a bit
 
It would depend on the town's population and the type of courts that operate there.

I've only been called once for jury duty and that was while I was actually working at the courthouse, so I didn't have to do it.

Soon after that, the higher courts stopped sitting in our town, so nobody here has to do duty as there are no trials held here.
 
You and novaphile sound like you haven't been called for jury duty in decades. Is that normal in Oz? I get the tap every three years like clockwork.

ETA: aimed at @arthwollipot and @novaphile , still wrestling with forum posting a bit
Honestly, I expected to have been called again before now. I did the duty once, then a couple of years later I was called again but didn't get selected. Then nothing for thirty years.
 
I had happened to mention on the juror questionnaire that I had over 21,000 posts on a skeptics' forum online. I might not have been required to mention this

Does anyone else have experiences where self representing as a skeptic, or behaving in a skeptical manner, has been an issue in jury service or other court proceedings?
I think it helps to remember that skepticism is a process and not an attribute or a label to wear. I am just as prone to all the same biases and habits of mind as any other average human being. It's just that I try to be aware of these issues when trying to figure out what is actually true and what is not.
I don't believe that you are required to volunteer any information about yourself that they don't specifically ask for. Knowing how the jury selection process works (not that I am claiming special expertise about it), the more you tell them about yourself, the less likely it is that you will be selected.

I did once serve on a jury. It was probably about 25 or more years ago now. Other than like my current occupation and jobs that I held in the past, and the fact that I didn't know or have any relationship with the parties involved, I didn't tell them any more than they asked for, and when there was an open-ended question near the end like "Is there any other reason why you might be unable to be impartial or follow the jury instructions?" (I don't recall exactly how that one was worded) I simply answered "No, none that I can think of." I was chosen for that jury.
 
You and novaphile sound like you haven't been called for jury duty in decades. Is that normal in Oz? I get the tap every three years like clockwork.

ETA: aimed at @arthwollipot and @novaphile , still wrestling with forum posting a bit
I was always expecting to be called for jury duty, but it just didn't happen.

I think it may have been due to working in different places around the country, and not staying anywhere long enough.
(Just guessing, really don't have any inside information.)

So I've only ever been called as a witness, and that was only on one occasion.

I was called recently, since retirement, but, these days, I have medical issues that were considered to be sufficient to stop me from serving.
 
A lot of people conflate skepticism with contrarianism. Especially actual contrarians. I think a great many CT believers also think of themselves as being skeptical of mainstream beliefs and such.

For those reasons I don't really think of myself as a "skeptic". I am a proponent of logic and objective evaluation of information; label that as you will.
I quite like one I saw somewhere (probably here): "Member of the reality-based community".

I've never been called for jury service, and I think I'm too old now.
 
I would have no hesitation to serve if I've ever called up again. The first time was a great experience.
Opposite experience, here. Jury services showed me the wisdom of George Carlin: "Think about how dumb the average person is. Half of them are dumber than that." Joe Six-Pack shouldn't be anywhere near consequential jurisprudence.

I'd be perfectly happy with a professional jury of peers who are regular people, but educated and trained in law to the point where they could be impartial jurors. Having some random Q-anon nitwit in control of your life is a variable we should have control over.
 
I'd be perfectly happy with a professional jury of peers who are regular people, but educated and trained in law to the point where they could be impartial jurors. Having some random Q-anon nitwit in control of your life is a variable we should have control over.

I'd go further and propose the use of specialist juries. I've been an expert witness in a couple of fraud trials and it was clear that the barristers doing the cross-examinations understood little of what was being discussed, while the jury members sat there with glazed expressions and were completely disconnected. Justice would be better served by having a bunch of experienced accountants on the jury to listen to tales of financial wrongdoing.
 
You and novaphile sound like you haven't been called for jury duty in decades. Is that normal in Oz? I get the tap every three years like clockwork.

ETA: aimed at @arthwollipot and @novaphile , still wrestling with forum posting a bit
In the US it varies a lot. My 10ish years in San Francisco and Oakland, I got a summons every year. In the previous 15 or so years of my adult live, once. I was registered in my rural home town while in the Navy and College. 3 years in Seattle, never, 8 years in Denver once. I've only served on one Jury out of the 11 times I got a summons.

ETA: The one time was an interesting experience. Four critical thinkers, myself, another engineer, a home schooled teacher at a religious school, and the alternate who didn't get to vote. The rest were, well, not the best thinker. A retired high school janitor who couldn't understand that if the accused was just wrong then he wasn't lying and therefore not guilty of fraud, fyi at least in CA when it comes to fraud, ignorance of the law can be a defense. The first vote was 10-2 guilty on both counts. After a week we got to 12-0 guilty on one count. I should admire someone willing to stand up to 11 people trying to get you to change your mind but she was so wrong. At one point she was inventing defenses for the guy that his one defense didn't use and said something to the effect, "I don't think what he did was reasonable but I could imagine a reasonable person that might think what he did was reasonable."

Basically, had at least 2 jurors who I'm convinced walked thinking they guy wouldn't have been charged if he wasn't guilty and 2 that walked in thinking he wouldn't have been charged but ACAB.

I'd be on board with just judges deciding guilt or innocents. I don't have much faith in juries.
 
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In the US it varies a lot. My 10ish years in San Francisco and Oakland, I got a summons every year. In the previous 15 or so years of my adult live, once. I was registered in my rural home town while in the Navy and College. 3 years in Seattle, never, 8 years in Denver once. I've only served on one Jury out of the 11 times I got a summons.

ETA: The one time was an interesting experience. Four critical thinkers, myself, another engineer, a home schooled teacher at a religious school, and the alternate who didn't get to vote. The rest were, well, not the best thinker. A retired high school janitor who couldn't understand that if the accused was just wrong then he wasn't lying and therefore not guilty of fraud, fyi at least in CA when it comes to fraud, ignorance of the law can be a defense. The first vote was 10-2 guilty on both counts. After a week we got to 12-0 guilty on one count. I should admire someone willing to stand up to 11 people trying to get you to change your mind but she was so wrong. At one point she was inventing defenses for the guy that his one defense didn't use and said something to the effect, "I don't think what he did was reasonable but I could imagine a reasonable person that might think what he did was reasonable."

Basically, had at least 2 jurors who I'm convinced walked thinking they guy wouldn't have been charged if he wasn't guilty and 2 that walked in thinking he wouldn't have been charged but ACAB.

I'd be on board with just judges deciding guilt or innocents. I don't have much faith in juries.

From my understanding it depends on the facts of the case. Even prosecutors and defense don't have a lot of faith in juries and you'll hear them say they're frightened to death about them because you just never know. Which I believe is why plea bargaining accounts for about 95% of all charge resolutions. That may be a separate topic.

Bench trial can be requested (judge instead of juries decide), and it has worked, though I don't think it's common.

The "jury of peers" thing is always the most interesting to me, because it rests on your friends and neighbors.
 
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Opposite experience, here. Jury services showed me the wisdom of George Carlin: "Think about how dumb the average person is. Half of them are dumber than that." Joe Six-Pack shouldn't be anywhere near consequential jurisprudence.

I'd be perfectly happy with a professional jury of peers who are regular people, but educated and trained in law to the point where they could be impartial jurors. Having some random Q-anon nitwit in control of your life is a variable we should have control over.
There's an old thread somewhere around here specifically discussing the pros and cons of juries.

ETA: Ah, here we are:
 
plea bargaining accounts for about 95% of all charge resolutions

That's interesting (if true)!

It does kind of chime with what I saw when working in a courthouse. Some defendants would even take a plea deal at the courthouse on the morning the jury was attending to be selected.
 
It's true, for better or worse. Not to get too far off topic but without it our entire legal system would probably crumble within months.

Plea bargaining in the United States is very common; the vast majority of criminal cases in the United States are settled by plea bargain rather than by a jury trial.[1] They have also been increasing in frequency—they rose from 84% of federal cases in 1984 to 94% by 2001.[2] Plea bargains are subject to the approval of the court, and different States and jurisdictions have different rules. Game theory has been used to analyze the plea bargaining decision.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plea_bargaining_in_the_United_States
 
Opposite experience, here. Jury services showed me the wisdom of George Carlin: "Think about how dumb the average person is. Half of them are dumber than that." Joe Six-Pack shouldn't be anywhere near consequential jurisprudence.

I'd be perfectly happy with a professional jury of peers who are regular people, but educated and trained in law to the point where they could be impartial jurors. Having some random Q-anon nitwit in control of your life is a variable we should have control over.
I thought in the USA you could pretty much always elect to have a bench trial?
 
I thought in the USA you could pretty much always elect to have a bench trial?
You can. Many still demand a jury trial. IMMHOO, if you are legally in the right, request bench. If you are damn well in the wrong and would rather come out on top anyway, demand a jury.
 
There are many jurisprudence systems in the world that don't use juries, many in quite civilised countries, are there comparative studies that try to measure accuracy of results (presumably by looking at appeals of one type or other)?
 
I thought in the USA you could pretty much always elect to have a bench trial?
Sorry, missed the part you had hilited:

The thing is, people plucked at random off the street don't always tip you off to how nuts they are, and can escape detection on a one-off jury service.
 
You can. Many still demand a jury trial. IMMHOO, if you are legally in the right, request bench. If you are damn well in the wrong and would rather come out on top anyway, demand a jury.
From what I understand, you request bench trials for anything when the facts and evidence behind the case are strong enough to leave to a judge than the whims of jury. On the rare occasions when they occur, at least in high-profile cases, they're usually found guilty of something. But maybe on a lesser charge than a jury of peers might deliver if given choices.
 
From what I understand, you request bench trials for anything when the facts and evidence behind the case are strong enough to leave to a judge than the whims of jury. On the rare occasions when they occur, at least in high-profile cases, they're usually found guilty of something. But maybe on a lesser charge than a jury of peers might deliver if given choices.
I kinda sorta think judges are more inclined to split the baby, so that everyone might go home grumbling, but they do go home and it's over. A jury has a habit of swinging all or nothing, and appeal by the losing party is common.
 

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